Proposal To Strike "Marriage" From California Law

Originally posted by TheRedneck

My support for this proposal is not based on Christianity, but I do not see it as conflicting with my beliefs either. If a church were to promote gay marriage, I would not recognize such a union as a marriage; I also, however, do not have the right, according to Christian principles, to force others to think the way I do.

This is not exactly being accurately described by you, redneck, I have known you a lot longer than you may know, and have been in many threads with you debating many who oppose religion but lets get something clear here. I dunno,, I ha ha I just have a hard time imagining the lord jesus christ saying,, I think its great gays can have this idea too. I mean a wife leaving her parents a cleaving to her husband,, what was I thinking!" Or I think its good that what I created from a mans rib wasn't what they wanted and Ill just agree to disagree the way Redneck does and vote for it among the pagans to turn them over to their delusions."

I just don't see it happenin man.

You wouldn't be "forcing anything" on anyone. this is about worldviews and one I believe is part of the problem and another I believe is the solution. They only have one they think about extending and one they think is like a friction brake stuck on their path to it.

Neither of us will force anyone but we will vote according to our conviction and according to out faith. i don't have much faith in what gays getting married will have for anyone but themselves and know their is dire consequences for being against the will of god.

So,, yeah,, I am having a hard time reconciling that.

I am dissappointed that you are having such an easy time with that but that's between you and your God.

Having said that, this being about secualr marriage, the stats are facts and the price is real. I haven't cherry picked and when it comes to gays statistics,, lets be honest here,, the stats are much to cherry pick from

They pretty much are into what they are into.

Remember, my friend, it is not the state that allows you to worship God and hold faith in Jesus; it is God Himself and Jesus Himself who do that.

It isn't the state that will allow gays to get married

its the voters

they said

NO

Originally posted by Annee
xmotex - OK - I get your point.

Mine is - - Society will not see equal. There will always be a division between "marriage" and "domestic partnership".

There will always be cause for "I'm better then you".

I stand by FULL equality - - - only the term marriage applied to all couples.

By the way - - my husband agrees with you.

No you don't you are superimposing your own opinion of domestic partnerships on everyone YOU think won't respect them as we respect Marriages, because why?

Because they have the legitimacy of heterosexual couples. In other words they don't have the stigma of "gay" all over it.

That is what this is about annee. You basically think you can manipulate public approval by putting a straight face on a Gay marriage.

That ain't gonna work annee. and unless you can start legislating attitudes, nothing like that ever will




[edit on 17-3-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Annee

Your Belief - - - has nothing to do with anything involving Equal Rights for every person.

Exactly. My belief has nothing to do with civil rights of others. And conversely, another's civil rights have nothing to do with my beliefs.

You appear to be intent on having everything to do with my beliefs. It won't happen. You can pass any law you want; you can round up any enforcement you like; you can dish out any punishment you can dream up... I will still believe as I believe.

You can accept that, or not. It doesn't change anything.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Aermacchi

This is not exactly being accurately described by you, redneck, I have known you a lot longer than you may know, and have been in many threads with you debating many who oppose religion but lets get something clear here.

If you know me that well, you will know that I consistently stand for freedom of people to do as they will. I am especially adamant about freedom of religion... which by necessity includes the right to believe in nothing as much as it does the right to believe in any god.

I dunno,, I ha ha I just have a hard time imagining the lord jesus christ saying,, I think its great gays can have this idea too. I mean a wife leaving her parents a cleaving to her husband,, what was I thinking!" Or I think its good that what I created from a mans rib wasn't what they wanted and Ill just agree to disagree the way Redneck does and vote for it among the pagans to turn them over to their delusions."

I remember a story about how Jesus forgave a woman who was being condemned to death. If I remember correctly, the men who accused her before Jesus was surprised as well, and ashamed.

I make no decisions for God, and I most certainly do not speak for God. If God wishes to send down fire and hailstones upon someone (which I personally do not believe He would do) for their actions, that is His decision and His doing - not mine. It's simply not my place, and I would suspect it is not yours either.

We live in a society which has freedom of religion. We also have a situation where that freedom is seen as being abridged by one particular group. Read my signature: "If one of us is chained, none of us are free." You want to serve Jesus? Then do not forbid others from serving their god, lest you be the one restricted next.

It isn't the state that will allow gays to get married

its the voters

they said

NO

Last I heard, the state was "We the People".

And you're right, they voted "no". That vote should (must) stand under any semblance of law until such time as it may be legally repealed by due process of law again. That's been my position since Prop 8 passed, and it does not change now. The issue we are discussing is a possible future bill, not a removal of Prop 8.

Now, will you and Annee please get together and figure out whether I am a right-wing fascist or a left-wing commie? I'm getting dizzy...

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Now, will you and Annee please get together and figure out whether I am a right-wing fascist or a left-wing commie? I'm getting dizzy...

TheRedneck

Redneck, you probably have the most balanced opinions I have ever had the pleasure of reading on these message boards.

I think this may be the best idea to come along in regards to equal rights in years. Gay people can have the SAME rights as straight people LEGALLY. They won't be able to be married in most churches, but it will only be a short time, I believe, until some churches come around to marrying gay couples as well as straight couples. And that's what we call freedom of religion, and its a staple of this great nation we live in.

Until then, lets keep civil unions between two consenting adults, of any gender/race/sexual orientation. And if the Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, etc. church doesn't want gay people to get married, by god, they don't have to marry them. If a church pops up that does want to marry them, then they can be married under that church's religion.

That's what America's all about. Freedom for everyone.

Originally posted by TheRedneck

I remember a story about how Jesus forgave a woman who was being condemned to death. If I remember correctly, the men who accused her before Jesus was surprised as well, and ashamed.

*Sigh* Redneck, I hold you in highest esteem HOWEVER,,,
The story you refer too is the one where Jesus asks those prosecuting her, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." no one did.
Then he said " where are your persecutors" "they are gone, now go, and sin no more." This story is often used to get someone to back off in their judgement of others when this is not about that it was about the punishment she faced for her sin (crime). This is a story about tempering justice with mercy and NOT about getting the Christian to not judge sin.

Having said that, the important part was at the end when he says "Go, and sin no more" Now if I were a Christian wouldn't I want to be "christlike"?

For me to say he without sin cast the first stone is easy, in fact I think the Gay lifestyle is a hard road in and of itself without my acting as punisher. Like you, it is not my place. What is and shouldn't be OUR place is to be complicit in anyway by proxy, directly or indirectly assisting in an act where quite frankly my endorsing gay marriage secular or otherwise, doesn't sound very much like I am saying, Go and sin no more.

No in fact what I am doing is saying Now go, and have all the gay sex you can distance yourself from the lord with in fact do it in the same spirit of consensual sex the way God himself ordained and really rub it in his face by getting married.

I make no decisions for God,

I think the decision was made and God is explicit those who are not with him are against him and I won't even bother going into the other .

and I most certainly do not speak for God.

I agree, haven't at all so far and that is what troubles me but Ill get over it.

If God wishes to send down fire and hailstones upon someone (which I personally do not believe He would do) for their actions, that is His decision and His doing - not mine. It's simply not my place, and I would suspect it is not yours either.

Nope it isn't and if I thought it was and it wasn't biblical, I'd hope you would offer your correction.

We live in a society which has freedom of religion. We also have a situation where that freedom is seen as being abridged by one particular group. Read my signature: "If one of us is chained, none of us are free." You want to serve Jesus? Then do not forbid others from serving their god, lest you be the one restricted next.

If it means being chained for being against the God they serve, then so be it, shackle me up. but you won't shut me up when I know the god they serve is the enemy and what earthly freedom a man loses here is nothing to that of the man who loses his entire soul

Last I heard, the state was "We the People".

Never said it wasn't but when a Bill like this comes up, all I have heard here is what is in it for gays. You ever ask yourself what is in it for those that are married? Why would they want this ? Why should they ?

See this is the part I agree with annee in as much as why they want it just as it is.

Now, will you and Annee please get together and figure out whether I am a right-wing fascist or a left-wing commie? I'm getting dizzy...

LOL naaah I like ya just as I have always thought of you, as,,

The Redneck

Originally posted by drwizardphd


Until then, lets keep civil unions between two consenting adults, of any gender/race/. And if the Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, etc. church doesn't want gay people to get married, by god, they don't have to marry them. If a church pops up that does want to marry them, then they can be married under that church's religion.

That's what America's all about. Freedom for everyone.

Sorry, if we make how we have sex a class distinction like race predicated on equal rights for all, lawyers from the ACLU are just salivating waiting for such case law to refer to for any others who feel sexual oriented towards consenting children or sisters and brothers or groups etc.

Equal rights is not equal access and the constitution makes no provisions for the freedom to get married. I don't want heterosexual on my drivers license and that is the pandoras box you open when suggesting such a distinction.

I believe, until some churches come around to marrying gay couples as well as straight couples. And that's what we call freedom of religion, and its a staple of this great nation we live in.

It is also called the "apostate church" but yeah it is what you say it is.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Sorry, if we make how we have sex a class distinction like race predicated on equal rights for all, lawyers from the ACLU are just salivating waiting for such case law to refer to for any others who feel sexual oriented towards consenting children or sisters and brothers or groups etc.

Do you have any good reason to believe that the ACLU supports pedophilia?

Look, I'm as liberal as it gets here at ATS pretty much. I even think that pedophiles are diseased and deserve treatment and support. In addition to being kept far far far away from children and being subjected to chemical and/or physical castration if they ever touch one.

This whole "if you accept homosexuality, you will accept pedophilia" thing is the biggest load of crap in the entire anti-gay agenda. And that says a lot, because there's not too much in there that isn't crap.

reply to post by Aermacchi

I think I understand where we differ on this. You see acceptance of this compromise as implicitly condoning the gay lifestyle; I do not see it that way.

I do not now, nor have I ever condoned being gay. But neither do I condemn someone for it. I do not judge others, but I do judge myself; that means that even if I had an inclination to practice gay sexual relations, I doubt I could do it. To do so is indeed a slap in the face of Jesus. If I am asked about my views on homosexuality, I freely speak up, that I do not think it is 'proper', that I find the thought of it disgusting, that I believe it to be a sin under my religious beliefs. I will also stop short at condemning others for it; as I said before, that is not my place.

What is my place is to spread the good news about Jesus. That good news: there is forgiveness for all. There is peace and joy and happiness without condemnation. The worst mass-murderer, the most vile child molester, the most infamous war criminal can show up at those Pearly Gates and enter in... if he/she has made peace and accepted Jesus' gift a split second before death. How much more so can someone who is simply gay be forgiven?

No, no, I do not condone homosexuality. I condemn it. But I also cannot, will not judge another human being. In the Garden of Eden, right after man was created, God spoke about man's dominion over plants and animals and fishes and the sea and the land... mentioning every thing that exists on this planet, save one... other men. Now, shall I take dominion over them as well, despite it not being my due? Is that not what Lucifer did, aspire to be like unto God Himself?

Think this over. Pray over it. And follow the path you are led on by the Holy Spirit. This is the end of my religious replies on this thread, although I have enjoyed our discussion. I believe it to be drifting off the main topic.

To all others who are reading this, I ask you to remember the next time you are discussing an issue with a self-proclaimed Christian: We do not always agree, and can even get into heated exchanges at times between each other. The only thing we have in common is a love of Jesus. Be careful when you start to lump us all into one stereotype.



TheRedneck

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Now, will you and Annee please get together and figure out whether I am a right-wing fascist or a left-wing commie? I'm getting dizzy...

TheRedneck

Gay people can have the SAME rights as straight people LEGALLY. They won't be able to be married in most churches, but it will only be a short time, I believe, until some churches come around to marrying gay couples as well as straight couples. And that's what we call freedom of religion, and its a staple of this great nation we live in.

My church already marries gays. What are you talking about.

My church does marriage ceremonies for gays in the eyes of God. They just aren't government legal.

Same Rights - Legal Rights - Same Term - Marriage.

Originally posted by americandingbat

Do you have any good reason to believe that the ACLU supports pedophilia?

This whole "if you accept homosexuality, you will accept pedophilia" thing is the biggest load of crap in the entire anti-gay agenda. And that says a lot, because there's not too much in there that isn't crap.

I'm with you. For sure I don't support repeat offenders. Anyone who touched a child would be executed if I had my way.

And it took me a long time to understand the ACLU - but I finally got it. They do not take sides - they just make sure the law/constitution is followed.

This discussion is about the term marriage and consenting adults.



[edit on 18-3-2009 by Annee]

reply to post by Sestias


Smart people. F**k the haters.

[edit on 18-3-2009 by incoherent_television]

I realize my position is "ALL or nothing".

I am not accepting there is any legitimate argument against Everyone using the term marriage.

One Term - All People.

reply to post by Annee


I know where you're coming from, but some folks will never see the point.

Trying to force it on them is not only a waste of time, it is also counterproductive to the goal of true equality.

If what we seek is legal equality, then we should merely seek legal equality.

Not a Pyrrhic "victory" in a pointless "culture war" that can never be truly won. No legislation will ever eliminate bigotry, no matter how carefully crafted.

That form of "victory" merely births the seeds of it's own failure - in resentment.

Give the religious conservatives (not the clowns, the sincere ones) the respect they (& every citizen) deserve.

Once they are shown (by example - the only method that is meaningful) they have nothing to fear, that they are not to be the new downtrodden, then they will come around and mostly learn to live in peace.

If we wish to build a pluralistic society, one in which divergent points of view can coexist peacefully, then this is the only real choice.

[edit on 3/18/09 by xmotex]

xmotex - Love your post.

Honestly - I do understand - doesn't mean I like it.

Prejudice comes in many forms. My mom was a polio victim. Walked with a full length brace and two Kenny Sticks. There was a time when restaurants could refuse her admission.

I'll leave it at that.

Originally posted by Annee

Same Rights - Legal Rights - Same Term - Marriage.

I don't think you understood my post. I was suggesting that it would be the exact same labeling for gay and straight couples. They would both legally be known as civil unions (or whatever they legally decide to call it based on the legislation), and in the church they would both be married. The same terms for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by Annee

Same Rights - Legal Rights - Same Term - Marriage.

I don't think you understood my post. I was suggesting that it would be the exact same labeling for gay and straight couples. They would both legally be known as civil unions (or whatever they legally decide to call it based on the legislation), and in the church they would both be married. The same terms for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

I understand your post.

You don't seem to want to accept mine.

Originally posted by americandingbat
Do you have any good reason to believe that the ACLU supports pedophilia?

Why would you defend the free speech of anyone using free speech as a means to communicate a message for any right no matter how absurd no matter how heinous a crime when it is simply OUT of the question Period!

Well The ACLU has defended such an argument. I don't see how anyone would have the heart to give that evil a voice but then again, the ACLU is heartless like that

This whole "if you accept homosexuality, you will accept pedophilia" thing is the biggest load of crap in the entire anti-gay agenda. And that says a lot, because there's not too much in there that isn't crap

Google it and tell me what part of this isn't true?

Of homosexuals questioned in Government reports that 43% admit to 500 or more partners in a lifetime, 28% admit to 1000 or more in a lifetime, and of these people, 79% say that half of those partners are total strangers, and 70% of those sexual contacts are one night stands (or, as one homosexual admits in the film "The Castro", one minute stands). Also, it is a favorite past-time of many homosexuals to go to "cruisy areas" and have anonymous sex

One study done in SanFrancisco reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.


* Many homosexual sexual encounters occur while drunk, high on drugs, or in an orgy setting.

* Many homosexuals don't pay heed to warnings of their lifestyles: "Knowledge of health guidelines was quite high, but this knowledge had no relation to sexual behavior".

* Homosexuals got homosexuality removed from the list of mental illnesses in the early 70s by storming the annual American Psychiatric Association (APA) conference on successive years.

* Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States. They make up only 1-2% of the population.

* Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus.

*the Los Angeles Police says, "30,000 sexually abused children in Los Angeles were victims of homosexuals".

* It takes approximately $300,000 to take care of each AIDS victim, so thanks to the promiscuous lifestyle of homosexuals, medical insurance rates have been skyrocketing for all of us

* Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne.

* 37% of homosexuals engage in sadomasochism, which accounts for many accidental deaths. In San Francisco, classes were held to teach homosexuals how to not kill their partners during sadomasochism.

* 41% of homosexuals say they have had sex with strangers in public restrooms, 60% say they have had sex with strangers in bathhouses, and 64% of these encounters have involved the use of illegal drugs.

* The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75.

* Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor.

* 73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age.

Many homosexuals admit that they are pedophiles: "The love between men and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality".

Even the bashing they blame redneck for or macho straights, is not entirely true either, you see gays lie about that too

* 50% of the calls to a hotline to report "queer bashing" involved domestic violence (i.e., homosexuals beating up other homosexuals)

reply to post by Aermacchi


You are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!!

Your allegations are inflamed, unsubstantiated, and just plain WRONG!!!

"73% of Homosexuals had sex with people under 19"?????

Aermacchi....you are truly being deluded by hate-filled propanda sites.

The one above, the '73%' comment, is the only one I can remember. It is FALSE!!!! Unless, 73% of Gay kids aged 18-19 are having sex with kids aged 18-19....THEN it makes sense.

Of course, heterosexual kids NEVER have sex, outside of 'marriage', right?

Ermmmm....Hello, bristol palin, up there in that thar Alaska????

reply to post by Aermacchi


Link that info, please, because it is too laughable for words.

And, for the record, we are talking about homosexuals having the same rights as heterosexuals under the law where marriage is concerned. Not some whacked out "study" that someone pulled out from their hind-quarters.

:shk: