structural engineer leslie robertson interview

Originally posted by Achorwrath
But no matter it would still be broken into small droplest combined with mist.

And the mist would ignite before the larger droplets due to it's lower flash point.

Originally posted by Achorwrath
An aerisol can is also presurised and the nosel is designed to break up the stream. Here is highspeed photo of a water ballon Link notice the mist on the edges?

What do you think the balloons are doing to the air and water inside? The more you expand a balloon, the more compression you get. So once again, this comparision is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Achorwrath
I did say that fires broke out on lower floors (I think 55th and 24th)

That would be from more explosives being detonated pre-collapse. If you're insinuating that the fire travelled down the elevator shafts (impossible) then you're also insinuating that the fires randomly picked floors to stop on and set fire to.

But.....

Originally posted by Achorwrath
But as we know the flames from the initial impact expanded out on almost all sides how is is beyond belief that it did not also travel down the shafts?

Heat and fire travels UP not down. I keep saying this over and over.

Ah so the mist only burns? and the rest wont. The mist burning would not be enough to ignite the rest of the droplets and particles

Is this what you are trying to say or am I missunderstanding your point.

the mist is created by the disruption of the sufrace tension of the water mass as the baloon snaps back around it. Not by compression if that were the case the whole mass would me mist not just the outer surface of the mass.

You have no proof of explosives, plus explosives do not start fires remember? that has been covered that only in holywood does that happen.
Again your post is not making sense, explosions expand in all directions unless stopped.

They would also expand down.
Does liquid also stop and not travel down now, or is it just when on fire...
Elevator doors are not water tight, nor were the stairwells.

I will have to find the information about the location of the othre fires again and link it to information on the elevators etc.

I am sorry but what you are saying in that post above does not fit the facts,

reply to post by _BoneZ_


You have not idea what you are talking about - you don't need to
pressurize a liquid to get an aerosol. The fuel tanks rupturing at 500mph
would cause the fuel stream to break up as it hit the air dispersing the
fuel into droplets. Also the fuel stream falling some thousand feet down
the elevator shafts would break up into aerosol mist

I have seen this several times - at a lear jet crash some 20 years ago
and at a fire in a chemical plant.

''It was the most frightening thing,'' Lee Natale, who lives 110 feet from the site, said. ''There was this great big ball of fire, sort of like the world was ending. It shook me out of bed. Then everything went dark, and there was total silence.''

The chemical plant fire started when a solvent tank holding toluene overfilled and ignited. As our crew went it to knock down fire hit spilled
toluene with hose stream, result was huge fireball as the liquid pool was broken up into droplets and flung into the air. When it ignited scared everybody sh*tless

Here is something to watch, it is an add on fire safety

As stated before there was water running down (either from the sprinkler system or from the ruptured lines.

Look what happens when they throw water on the burning cooking oil.

Link

A similar reaction with fuel happens. The water flash boils and the steam carries more fuel with it which then ignites

reply to post by Achorwrath


Actually, that's interesting and something I haven't thought of. Good post.

reply to post by Achorwrath


damn, that video spooked me out at the end. I didn't expect that.

Originally posted by Griff

What happened to the reports posted by you Cameron of the guy with his clothes burnt off with his toungue on the floor or the woman who was still at her desk with her clothes burnt off as if she were still typing away?

I would consider those people "being killed by the blast", so therefore I can only conclude that Mr. Mackey is full of it.

Griff ~

I found this 50 second video showing the difference between detonation and deflagration.

The injuries sustained in the lower levels were not consistent with a detonation.

reply to post by Griff


Thanks, I had mentioned it before but could not find the video.

That one is also not the one I was looking for. There was one where is was a car fire with a fuel spill (which was also burning), someone sprayed water on it and the fireball was large enough to whiteout the camera, when it came back the building the car was next too was burning.. I can't find that video though. It was impressive.

This is what happens to water hitting burning magnesium.

Link

There was probably not enough in the alloy of the plane but I have not been able to get complete confirmation of how much is used elsewhere in the 767 construction.

Just that it is used in construction and in the alloy..

Originally posted by Achorwrath
You have no proof of explosives

This is proof of explosives:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a4186321ea79.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/20365fbcce42.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07233a1b8237.jpg[/atsimg]

This is also proof of explosives:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6dab83d90c0f.jpg[/atsimg]

Oh, and don't forget all of the firemen testimony, media testimony and every single other person that was there that heard the explosions before and during collapse.

Originally posted by Achorwrath
plus explosives do not start fires remember?

I don't know where you got that idea:

cms.firehouse.com...$33750

Originally posted by thedman
Also the fuel stream falling some thousand feet down
the elevator shafts

There was no fuel travelling down the elevator shafts. The fuel was instantly ignited upon impact. The fuel isn't going to break itself up into different groups and say "okay boys, half of you burn up in the fire, the rest of us are going to take a ride down an elevator shaft". THE FUEL WAS INSTANTLY IGNITED, PERIOD.

Plus you haven't a single scientific source to conclude the massive damage in the lobby and the basement levels, including the parking garage, were caused by mere kerosene. You're speculating and it's your OPINION only.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


It's proof of an explosion. Not an explosive.

Can you explain to me what continued to burn?

All of the fuel did not burn off instantly, that is not accurate first you say it could not detonate like a fuel air bomb and now you are saying it all burned off.

Which is it?

People inside describe pools of burning liquid

reply to post by Achorwrath


I said most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball. But what I stress is that the ignition of the jet fuel was instantaneous and every single drop was on fire. If there were pools, they were on the impact floors because there's no jet fuel fires or fire damage anywhere in the lobby, parking garage or basement levels. Only heavy devastation from high-powered explosives.

Originally posted by CameronFox
It's proof of an explosion. Not an explosive.

You are correct, the devastated parking garage is proof of an explosion (not from kerosene), but the picture of the jets of smoke/dust are proof of explosives as the jets are a direct result of the explosives being detonated.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


You mean the hush a bombs? Seen not heard!

Originally posted by _BoneZ_


I said most of the fuel burned off in the initial fireball. But what I stress is that the ignition of the jet fuel was instantaneous and every single drop was on fire. If there were pools, they were on the impact floors because there's no jet fuel fires or fire damage anywhere in the lobby, parking garage or basement levels. Only heavy devastation from high-powered explosives.

Please read the following:

Lobby & 3rd floor:
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp............... And I remember seeing the table was melted, but he was still fused in the chair and that elevator bank was melted, so I imagine the jet fuel must have blown right down the elevator shaft and I guess caught the security guard at a table, I guess at some type of checkpoint.

Firefighter Peter Blaich
www.firehouse.com...

As he waited for orders, Meldrum, the chauffeur (Fire engine driver), noticed that all windows in the high lobby were blown out. Glass and marble from busted walls littered the floors, crunched underfoot. He caught an occasional whiff of jet fuel, a smell like kerosene, wafting from elevator shafts. On the floor by the elevators he saw burned people.

www.projo.com...

And:

.......Bill climbed down all 72 floors but when he arrived in the lobby of the Tower, 20 elevators exploded from the plane’s jet fuel... the noise was horrendous and the tower was beginning to collapse.

Bill spent the next three months in St. Vincent's Hospital where he clinically died twice but was resuscitated. He saw "the light," the tunnel, angels, and his sister who died seventeen years ago. He was unconscious the first twenty days he spent in the hospital and was told he would probably not walk again. Bill sustained fuel burns on the dorsal sides of both hands and suffered three skull fractures, a crushed knee, a broken jaw, burned corneas, and a lacerated abdomen that required 200 stitches to close. His injuries were sustained from steel beams that were blowing apart. Later, Bill was told that he was brought out of the North Tower unconscious and less than five minutes before it collapsed.

news.boisestate.edu...


[edit on 23-3-2009 by CameronFox]

double post

[edit on 23-3-2009 by CameronFox]

reply to post by Achorwrath


Boeing 767/757 used 7178 aluminium alloy for much of their structure

composition :

Aluminum Balance
Chromium 0.18 - 0.35
Copper 1.6 - 2.4
Iron 0.5 max
Magnesium 2.4 - 3.1
Manganese 0.3 max
Remainder Each 0.05 max
Remainder Total 0.15 max
Silicon 0.4 max
Titanium 0.2 max
Zinc 6.3 - 7.3

Aluminium with low percent of magnesium is difficult to ignite and burn
under most conditions

Been to several vehicle fires involving magnesium - looks like 4th July
when hose stream hits engine compartment. When fighting Magnesium
fires use Triple A-B-C dry chem, (mon ammonium phosphate) to coat
burning material - once get over What the F*** moment !

One thing to consider is the solid oxygen generators on the aircraft - use
burning reaction between iron powder/potassium perchlorate to
generate O2 for emergency breathing.

A fire cause by improperly packaged O2 generators being carried in cargo
hold resulted in crash of Valu Jet DC 9 near Miami in 1997 (Flight 592)

Thanks for that, most of the searches for the composition of the alloy resulted in 9/11 sites.

Yes that alloy is hard to ignite if intact, but it was not and much would have been reudced to chips and fragmets, I have already mentioned the O2 generators and shown videos as to what happens when water hits oil/fuel and magnesium fires.

not to mention that many aircraft fires can reach 3000F due to fuel and accelerants.

Originally posted by CameronFox
reply to post by _BoneZ_

 

It's proof of an explosion. Not an explosive.

But, I thought it was a "deflagration" and not an explosion?

Which is it?

Would a "deflagration" cause that amount of damage? If not, then it was an "explosion" and that causes the video you posted of deflagration vs. explosion to be moot, does it not?

reply to post by CameronFox


I like the one you posted about getting an "occasional whiff" of kerosene.



If there was enough jet fuel to cause that amount of damage, I'm pretty positive they would be smelling it a lot more than an "occasional whiff".