Think about it before you take sides on the current Gaza conflict., page 1

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Topic started on 7-1-2009 @ 10:10 PM by dantrav

I have only one question to ask to supporters of both sides. What would you do if this happened to you?

When answering this question please take in both perspectives follow the history of this situation.

Think about it?

I am a Palestinian civilian and feel as though I am being cornered into a small strip of land and being forced to live in poverty. I am furious as my land has slowly been annexed through various actions. Some of my fellow palestinians have attacked the Israelis and someone i knew had a child that died in the school that was recently bombed.

I am an Israeli civilian and my house was barely missed by a rocket the other day. I have seen restaurants bombed and a know a few people who have died due to these attacks.

Think about it. Put yourself in someone else's shoes. Imagine these things happened to you, think about how you would feel

Is either sentiment wrong? Is either correct?

Take the governments out of the equation because they are both at fault. Perhaps one more so than another, but regardless these people are people.

Maybe there should be an intervention to force the two groups of people to stand side by side. See if they would talk. Perhaps they would talk about how they both love their kids, or maybe the sports they like. Perhaps music or even how different their faiths are. Maybe they would both talk about how asinine both of their governments are.

Maybe they wouldn't. Or should i say we wouldn't. We are so wrapped up in right and wrong. No one is 100% right and anyone that thinks they are rates with the most ignorant by far.

We are all the same creature for the most part and you should not forget that when you talk about condemning someone else to a fate you will likely never suffer.

Blame the governments and the religious institutions that are preaching this discrimination, (it is on both sides) not the people. I have faith that if the people were given the chance then they would likely not throw any stones based on these foundations.

Seriously, whether or not you reply. Think about it.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:33 PM by kettlebellysmith

Hamas is a terrorist organization that stirs up trouble, then hides among civilians, eventually costing the lives of innocent men, women, and children, while they go on committing acts of terrorism on a country a 4000 year right to exists.
I grieve for the loss of innocent lives on both sides. But Israel did not start this war. Hamas bombed Israel with rockets daily, with no response from Israel. Israel finally warned Hamas several times before responding with rockets of their own.
They were much more patient than I would have been if Tennesee was lobbing rockets across the river at my home town.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:39 PM by David9176

reply to post by dantrav

Is either sentiment wrong? Is either correct?

They are both correct. Any loss of innocent life in war is a terrible thing.

What is the problem with our world?

IMO....

Race, Religion, and our so called country "borders."
All of these are dividers of people. Pride in ones race, religion, and country has played a major role in any major conflict.

People don't seem to realize that they are being led and teached from the very day they were born to view things as their country or religion wants them to.

All of their opinions are formed from what the see on tv, read in newspapers, hear on the radio, or what their religious leader is telling them. Most peoples opinions are entirely based on this. Each country will present news in a different way...mostly in support of that countries laws and religion. It's biased...which in turn makes the people within the borders of that country biased...not because they want to...but because that is what they are taught and led to believe.

It's all about perception. Some can see through it..many cannot.

Myself...i will not take a side on this. Why? Because it's not within my jurisdiction to do so. I cannot judge someone based on something that someone has told me or by something that has been reported to me as that information can be inaccurate or shown in a way that is biased. People seem to fall into this trap which in turn divides us even more.

Unfortunately...people in this world will not accept the fact others can and should have ideas and beliefs that are not the same as their own...even when those same ideas and beliefs have no direct effect on them whatsoever. It is a major flaw in all of us.

The worst part of it all is that people fight and die because of these flaws. People will fight for an idea...not because it may be right....but because they were told it was right.

Edit: Starred and Flagged...good thread...let's hope it doesn't turn into a bash fest as i know this is not what you are intending with this thread.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by David9176]

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:42 PM by mystiq

I actually question who set up and funded Hamas to begin with. I believe all the fascist/terrorist elements are from the cartel. They love to stir pots and keep traumas and conflicts going. Prison planet has a good piece about this as well.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:43 PM by dantrav

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
They were much more patient than I would have been if Tennesee was lobbing rockets across the river at my home town.

What if Tennessee bombed a local civilian facility because they suspected that terrorist were there? What if it was a hospital or school that a member of your family was at?

I am just trying to point out that it is all how you see what happened to you so the following statement is pro nothing so don't take it that way.

How do you know that the person lobbing rockets didn't loose a pacifist family member due to an IDF action? If you say, "that doesn't justify shooting rockets," then shooting rockets doesn't justify dropping bombs.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by dantrav]

[edit on 8-1-2009 by dantrav]

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:53 PM by dantrav

reply to post by David9176

Thank you.

I often find myself asking what is wrong with this world as well.

My goal was to point out the humanity and how no matter which way you look at it, if you really look at it, both sides are wrong and right all at the same time. Also my goal was to put humanity behind the people that everyome seems to hate one side or another.

Alot of us don't understand this because we have never had bombs dropped or rockets fired at us. I have not myself and will admit that. That is why i try to look at the people instead of the view points.

Unfortunately this will likely end as the rest of them, with a few people bickering that one side's viewpoint stands stronger than the other.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:55 PM by kettlebellysmith

I think you miss the point. Hamas had been firing rockets into Israel for, I believe, several months, without retaliation. Israel, in a polite and diplomatic manner, asked that this stop. When it didn't, they issued several warnings, before retaliating. How many innocent Israelis were killed? Or doesn't that matter?
I have already stated that I greive for the innocent lives lost on both sides of this conflict. But I will not shed one tear of the terrorists who hide among innocent civilians and put them in danger.
Israel didn't start this war. And I do hope a cease-fire can be called, and a treaty negotiated, but not a treaty with known terrorists. And in case you haven't noticed, Hezbollah has denounced Hamas, along with Saudi Arabia.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 10:59 PM by ravenshadow13

OP- Thank you for putting it in such terms. Neither side is correct.

I don't know why so many of us on here feel so involved in the Gaza conflict, since most of us don't live anywhere near there or have family there.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 11:11 PM by David9176

reply to post by dantrav

My goal was to point out the humanity and how no matter which way you look at it, if you really look at it, both sides are wrong and right all at the same time.

I agree. But i also believe that killing innocent people because of losing any innocent loved one in the same way is not an answer.

One thing that i'm tired of seeing...."well they started it!" It reminds me of being a kid fighting with my brother after getting scolded by my father. He'd always say..."We'll I'm finishing it right now!" The thing is my old man was absolutely right. It doesn't matter who started it because we were both wrong for fighting/arguing in the first place.

I wish people would see things this way.

reply posted on 7-1-2009 @ 11:17 PM by lunarminer

reply to post by dantrav

Put yourself in their shoes.

I have a story for you all.

Back in the 1980's I served a religious mission to Germany. My first assignment was in Augsburg. We had an apartment that was owned by an old German woman in her 80's. She was a very nice lady. One day, we were in her apartment, paying our rent. She had a black and white photo on her mantle of a German Army officer. The man in the photo was quite handsome and so I asked who it was. She explained that the photo was of her husband and that he had been killed in the war. She recounted the story of how his convoy was bombed as it moved through a mountain pass and that he died in an avalanche. She told me that he was a very kind and generous man and that she still missed him. She cried as she told me this and I could see that she really loved her husband. I told her that I was sorry for her loss. I really was, but I am very thankfull that the US and the UK won that war.

I have several other stories about people in that city and their experiences during the war. Did these people suffer? They certainly did. Would I have suffered if I had been them? You bet I would.

However, let's not lose site of the fact that the Nazi regime was evil and needed to be destroyed. The world is a better place without the Nazis. It is unfortunate that other people suffered in the process, some of them innocent, others who were not.

So, let's not get carried away by the "put yourself in their shoes" reasoning. We should care about innocent civilians getting hurt, but let's not let that blind us to what is really on the line here.

Do you want the people who strap bombs to children to win? I don't. I have no respect for anyone who would strap a bomb to an innocent child. None, there is no excuse it. It is evil of the same type as the Nazis that I referenced above. I do not wish to live in a world where that kind of behaviour is excused.

There is no moral equivalence for killing your own kids.

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 12:32 AM by dantrav

reply to post by lunarminer

I don't disagree with what you said.

This is not about who is right and who is wrong. Please don't blame the actions of a few on the group.

Do you assume that all from the group you speak of would do the things you described?

I have seen Americans get their kids to steal thing from a store and blame it on their kids when they both get caught. I have sat in a room at a store with the police while a kid cried his eyes out alluding to the fact that his mother told him to steal it but refused to say it aloud until he realized his mother was about to let him go to jail. I bet that woman would do the same thing you described if asked to. Does that mean that all americans should be punished?

Using your experience, should every german have been ostracized for the actions and orders of their leaders? Some did some horrible unspeakable things, most did not.

There are rogue elements in every society, that doesn't mean that others would do the same or should be punished for the actions of a few.

All i was trying to do is present is the people. Not to take a side, but to ask others to step off their soap box long enough to put theirselves in the shoes of the side they disagree with, to try to understand why they could be angry. Maybe then those of us who are not there could stop saying that A is worse than B, but rather I wish A and B could put the past aside and figure out what would make them both happy.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by dantrav]

[edit on 8-1-2009 by dantrav]

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 12:42 AM by darkshooter

Off and on for the past eight years, rockets or mortar rounds have been launched from Gaza into Israel. Eight years.

Both sides finally had a ceasefire. Israel didn't attack anyone during that time, although, rockets were launched against Israeli areas.

The date for the ceasefire to expire came up, and guess who wanted to let it expire?

For an entire week, large numbers of rockets and mortar rounds were launched against Israel, with Israel continually warning them to stop.

It didn't stop.

And now we have the whining by Gaza. We have claims of genocide. We have claims of willful targeting of civilian areas. We have mosques destroyed.

Oddly, we in the US and Britain saw the mosques, schools, and hospitals used as munitions storage facilities in Iraq, so this is not something rare.

When a mosque was hit, sure enough, secondary explosions.

Who do I feel bad for? The Israelis who can't kill enough of Hamas, and the Palestinians who refuse to.

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 12:43 AM by jatsc

There are innocent people who have no involvement with the bad things that are occuring and they are the ones who suffer, it is on both sides people need to get over the notation that only one side is right neither is right plain and simple violence does not stop violence it only leads to more violence; it may happen hours, days, months or years but it will happen and you wont stop it. Something could happen in 2008 and nothing for the next 50 years but they could be connected through what one person went through.

I dont care who started what killing innocent people or destroying a place where they are even if terrorist are there point blank I would not do it no matter what.

I dont care if the most evil person was in a building and i had a clear shot, if there are innocent people there I would not do it, 2 wrongs dont make a right.

Just like things when something happens to an innocent bystander the family still blames those involved no matter the situation and this is the same.

I would not put a creature (human or animal) that has nothing to do with something in harms way; i dont care what the outcome is, if something happens it was meant to happen.

You can ask anyone what they would do if so and so family member, friend etc was in the situation. Most people dont follow through on what they say they would do in a situation so asking a person what if your family was there has no difference either they freeze up or do something careless and stupid.

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 12:52 AM by jatsc

Lets say there is a another cease fire what next until the problem is solved there will never be a sollution to it, we can either fix the problem now or 20 from now but it will be the same problem, same bs fixes and the same type of corruption on both sides.

Half the leaders on both sides only a crap about thereselves and not there actually citizens. We could get rid of Hamas and this nonesense would still be going on.

They will never be a peace as long as the people deciding on what they want are the people currently in charge on both sides; both sides want the same thing there can be no winner.

We need a solution after this trouble in gaza stops otherwise we will keep getting the same crap every couple of years its like were playing the same song on repeat.

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 01:18 AM by hannamtong

reply to post by dantrav

Horrible things happen to the innocent on both sides of any conflict, especially the kids, but we must choose sides. While America was debating whether or not to interfere with Nazi Germany and Japan, the stage was set for unimaginable evil. If you don't believe radical Islam is far more dangerous than the third reich , than you have chosen a side. The world is too small and too armed not to take sides. There is no such thing as unbiased media so get as much information as you can from as many different sources as you can, think about it then choose a side.

reply posted on 8-1-2009 @ 02:25 PM by Gazrok