Originally posted by Satyr

See, I don't think the USSR would have hated us so bad in the first place, if it weren't for the "representatives" that placed us in that situation in the first place. This is where you miss my entire perspective of a "more advanced culture"....a culture that doesn't require having the wealthy in charge of the less wealthy...a culture of people that don't feel the need to take anything from others, whether it's in the form of freedom, rights, privacy, your will to be yourself and do what you want, as long as it isn't malicious toward others, etc. Obviously, it's a dream, because there are too many people who don't get it. Those are the people that really need to go. Unfortunately, it takes violence to remove those types, once they've obtained the unruly powers they hold today. I don't blame them. They don't know any better. They're like gamblers, only they're control freaks, who like to control people, money, rights...basically your life. I mean, face it, you're just a modern day slave. They treat slaves a bit better these days. The happiest slaves are those who believe they're free.

________________________________________

You are describing the USSR here, aren't you? You're not saying that the Gulag didn't exist, are you?

Because you gave an excellent description of the topic of Solzhenitsyn's famous work. It is easy to see how we as Americans would oppose such brutality.





[Edited on 8-4-2004 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by s.o.r.r.y.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I don't know about you, but I am far from a slave. I do what I want, when I want. I say what I want to whomever I want to, whenever I want to. I have my own house of my choice in the city of my choice. I could die tomorow and be quite satisfied with my life other then never having been a father, and it's not the government preventing me from doing that (like in China, though even there you can have 1 kid) I just haven't found a wife yet.

My point exactly...you don't see beyond "your home"...it's the same old Orwellian "Me" Generation thing which I grew up during but chose not to indulge. Meanwhile, injustice is being delivered all around you and you turn a blind eye like most Americans because it does not directly affect "you". You sit back and close your eyes while our leader misdirects and boasts of 50 new jobs created in some middle American city he's campaining in while ignoring a participant who queries "What about the 400 jobs which where lost as 2 of our major companies moved south out of the country to reap the rewards of cheap (slave) labor. Our laws allow this kind of ruining of life. Or the 50 million dollars to build an enclosed rainforest in Iowa rather than pay our educators the monies they deserve to enrich our children's minds, or the billions and billions of dollars to manufacture weapons to ruin peoples lives. I could go on and on. There is too much wrong doing within our government system today. As far as replacing a leader and what would follow after...don't be so narrowminded as to think it would have to change every aspect of American life. Just a better upper management team with an ethical backround and a whole lot more compassion than exists currently is needed to get the ball rolling. "Who get's what piece of land?" This isn't about taking over the country...don't be ridiculous. It's about removing the current political structure rooted in greed, self-interest and anti-compassion. And just because it's not within public view due censorship and misdirection, it still does not take a rocket scientist to see what is actually happening given even a small amount of common sense. Either you get it or you don't.

I said I am not a slave because you said:

I mean, face it, you're just a modern day slave. They treat slaves a bit better these days. The happiest slaves are those who believe they're free.

So, exactly who are slaves? You again and again refered to the american public (or did I not understand you?:puz as slaves.

As for your job example, what do you think should happen? Every American company is forced to hire from within the country? Sorry - that is NOT what this country was founded on.

I agree - 50 million to build an indoor rainforest was a waste. Who voted to fund it. Find out and both you and I will not ever vote for them again

Throwing money at education never worked and never will. It's a fact, a child has to WANT to learn and I don't know how many people these days do.

Those Billions and Billions of dollars not only protect us and our soldiers, but also often make major impacts in the civ sector as well. Why do you think flying is so safe today? How about all of our high tech comm systems. Sat. links to any where in the world. Hell - this computer we are typing on right now has recieved a lot of input from military tech.

I don't think YOU get it. This is as good as it's gunna be for a long time (right or wrong), untill humans evolve or die - which ever comes first. Live in denial if that keeps you happy or sane, but realize that things are actually quite good here. Imagine living during the inquisition, dark ages, ect ect.

Originally posted by s.o.r.r.y.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I don't know about you, but I am far from a slave. I do what I want, when I want. I say what I want to whomever I want to, whenever I want to. I have my own house of my choice in the city of my choice. I could die tomorrow and be quite satisfied with my life other then never having been a father, and it's not the government preventing me from doing that (like in China, though even there you can have 1 kid) I just haven't found a wife yet.

My point exactly...you don't see beyond "your home"...it's the same old Orwellian "Me" Generation thing which I grew up during but chose not to indulge. Meanwhile, injustice is being delivered all around you and you turn a blind eye like most Americans because it does not directly affect "you". You sit back and close your eyes while our leader misdirects and boasts of 50 new jobs created in some middle American city he's campaining in while ignoring a participant who queries "What about the 400 jobs which where lost as 2 of our major companies moved south out of the country to reap the rewards of cheap (slave) labor. Our laws allow this kind of ruining of life. Or the 50 million dollars to build an enclosed rainforest in Iowa rather than pay our educators the monies they deserve to enrich our children's minds, or the billions and billions of dollars to manufacture weapons to ruin peoples lives. I could go on and on. There is too much wrong doing within our government system today. As far as replacing a leader and what would follow after...don't be so narrowminded as to think it would have to change every aspect of American life. Just a better upper management team with an ethical backround and a whole lot more compassion than exists currently is needed to get the ball rolling. "Who get's what piece of land?" This isn't about taking over the country...don't be ridiculous. It's about removing the current political structure rooted in greed, self-interest and anti-compassion. And just because it's not within public view due censorship and misdirection, it still does not take a rocket scientist to see what is actually happening given even a small amount of common sense. Either you get it or you don't.

Exactly! You have no idea how bad it really is, until you become a victim of the system. Only then will you realize what horrible mistakes have been made in allowing certain compromises in our rights. It's a very slippery slope, and you obviously won't think about it until they're locking you up for not wearing your seat belt, or charging you taxes to have children. Actually, I'm sure there's already a newborn tax of some sort, isn't there? Do they charge for birth certificates? If not, they could easily get away with it. No one would see it as anything but "normal", in this system. There practically isn't anything you can do or buy that isn't taxed. How much is too much? When will you draw the line? At 75% of your income? Will you even realize when it hits that amount?

[Edited on 4-8-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by jsobecky
You are describing the USSR here, aren't you? You're not saying that the Gulag didn't exist, are you?

Because you gave an excellent description of the topic of Solzhenitsyn's famous work. It is easy to see how we as Americans would oppose such brutality.

Admittedly, I don't know alot about the cold war, or the USSR. Did they really want world domination, or is that the American media version of the story? I mean, everyone knows about the "red scare". Everyone who wasn't a full blown American, apple pie and hot dog patriot was a communist, at the time. One thing I do know for sure, if they didn't before, they sure do hate us now.
But, more to my point, anyone, whether they're Russian or American, who feels the need to control people to the degree that top level gov't officials seem to, is sick, IMO. They're the ones fighting against each other, and dragging us into their fights. Know what I mean? We wouldn't have wars if it weren't for these alpha idiots.

[Edited on 4-8-2004 by Satyr]

Wasn't it odd that in Demolition Man, Arnold Schwarzenneger was president?

Arnie wasn't even >in Demolition Man... the president was a crazy old man, and Sly Stallone played the hero.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
So, exactly who are slaves? You again and again refered to the american public (or did I not understand you?:puz as slaves.

What I said was "out of the country to reap the rewards of cheap (slave) labor" i.e. Greed Corp. "lays off" 400+ people, closes up shop, Greed Corp. moves to Asian country and sets up shop, said company hires workers for 3-5 times less wage than it was paying to it's American workers while reaping the benefits of the hard working Asian ethic of 60-80 hour work week. Greed Corp. triples it's revenue at the very least even while paying out unemployment benefits to x-workers. Said company continues to sell majority of it's product to the U.S. market while reaping the benefits of the free trade agreement. Plain enough for ya, AMM? Do you see now?

And why jump to the extreme example every time a few rational facts are posed. Desperate to promote apathy possibly? Your nickname here certainly doesn't reflect your point of view. Just like to argue? What exactly does your name stand for then? Mad but complacent?

Originally posted by American Mad Man
As for your job example, what do you think should happen? Every American company is forced to hire from within the country? Sorry - that is NOT what this country was founded on.

It just makes your argument less valid. I was merely stating that it is WRONG for a company to be allowed to choose the above scenario. Their should be accountability for this kind a ruining of life....this greed mongering!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I agree - 50 million to build an indoor rainforest was a waste. Who voted to fund it. Find out and both you and I will not ever vote for them again

Do you think your vote means the same as it did in, say the 60's? While it's true...it is our undeniable right to vote and it used to mean something, our government has had it's head so far up the special interests group's arse for so long that the lines of left and right are almost blurred beyond all recognition save for how much MONEY to spend on who's special interest re: 50 Million Dollar Rain Tree Park or $2 Billion on a bomber that could destroy half the planet in a day. Big government is mesmerized by toys that destroy and power, PERIOD. Hence the defense budget is almost 5 times as high as any other alloted moneys. They've created the threat and fear factor through shady, underhanded dealings to further their interests in which a good amount of the time is not in the interest of the American public. Decisions behind closed doors and away from public view are so frequent and normal, secret energy meetings we, the public, who hire them, are not allowed to know about!!! So go ahead and just sigh and resign ("This is as good as it's gunna be for a long time, right or wrong, untill humans evolve or die - which ever comes first"). It's your right but they work for us or have you forgotten and fallen on the grenade that is big government? Apathy is for losers!

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Throwing money at education never worked and never will. It's a fact, a child has to WANT to learn and I don't know how many people these days do.

This is political brainwashing at it's finest. Through quality teaching using inspirational and up-to-date methods to get the spark to burn, a child WILL want to learn. Granted, this also has to do with good parenting. I used to dislike going to school until a teacher pointed out my strengths rather than weakness' and had the necessary time and incentive to build on that. It's a need for smaller classes and a more well TRAINED and well PAID teacher that can bring about change. Obfuscate all you like AMM but facts are facts. I take the high road...low one's all yours.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Those Billions and Billions of dollars not only protect us and our soldiers, but also often make major impacts in the civ sector as well. Why do you think flying is so safe today? How about all of our high tech comm systems. Sat. links to any where in the world. Hell - this computer we are typing on right now has recieved a lot of input from military tech.

This is partially true but do you realize how much government waste is involved through lack of financial planning and execution of proper accounting? Just look at the padding done by Haliburton in their invoicing to the DOD. There are others but I'm tired of schoolin. Oh...computer advancements came primarily from NASA and universities like MIT NOT the Military. The military simply buys contracts.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I don't think YOU get it. This is as good as it's gunna be for a long time (right or wrong), untill humans evolve or die - which ever comes first. Live in denial if that keeps you happy or sane, but realize that things are actually quite good here. Imagine living during the inquisition, dark ages, ect ect.

Apathy! "Quite good" you say? Compared to what? Good for whom? Not the average working man or woman that is screwed every time property taxes go through the roof! It's great if your big business though and own a few "pollys" at the whitehouse. Bad for Iraqi peaceful citizens, bad for anyone that does not share our big biz government view. WAKE UP and do some research or get off the ATS boards and subscribe to a government funded and monitored bbs where the theme is perpetuate ignorance!! The truth is out there if you just look for it with open eyes. Tired of these people that come in here and deny intelligence and just think the boat should remain on course toward the rocks.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by s.o.r.r.y.]

whockawockawockawocka...............

*punt*

Originally posted by s.o.r.r.y.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I don't think YOU get it. This is as good as it's gunna be for a long time (right or wrong), untill humans evolve or die - which ever comes first. Live in denial if that keeps you happy or sane, but realize that things are actually quite good here. Imagine living during the inquisition, dark ages, ect ect.

Apathy! "Quite good" you say? Compared to what? Good for whom? Not the average working man or woman that is screwed every time property taxes go through the roof! It's great if your big business though and own a few "pollys" at the whitehouse. Bad for Iraqi peaceful citizens, bad for anyone that does not share our big biz government view. WAKE UP and do some research or get off the ATS boards and subscribe to a government funded and monitored bbs where the theme is perpetuate ignorance!! The truth is out there if you just look for it with open eyes. Tired of these people that come in here and deny intelligence and just think the boat should remain on course toward the rocks.

Compared to the dark ages, anything looks good, eh? It amazes me how little we've really advanced, since then, if you look at the big picture. Now, we seem to believe that we're civilized, as long as we kill without torturing. Luckily, religion isn't the basis of gov't anymore, otherwise they'd still be torturing anyone they don't agree with. You gotcher mind right, boy?

[Edited on 4-12-2004 by Satyr]