Cabinet agrees to blanket ban on licensing of handguns (Ireland)

Cabinet agrees to blanket ban on licensing of handguns (Ireland)

www.irishtimes.com

Gun owners who already have weapons will not have their licences renewed, forcing them to sell their guns or face criminal prosecution.

The Government's decision to ban the weapons comes after a period in which their use has grown exponentially in the Republic, reaching 1,900 licences at present. In 2004, the High Court overturned a 30-year-old "temporary custody order" banning the licences.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Perhaps the best part is this:

Last night's debate followed the murder last Sunday week of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick. He was killed when members of a gang in the city shot him close to his home in Dooradoyle after mistaking him for a rival criminal.

Because stopping the law-abiding from owning firearms will somehow prevent the non law-abiding from getting them. I'm simply dumbfounded that people still believe this. And no unlicensed drivers are ever on the roads? Illegal drugs are never bought, sold used? Prohibition didnt drive the law-abiding underground creating a massive black market worth millions and resulting in the deaths of thousands?

Give me a break.

Notice how the article mentions a recent uptick in licenses as a cause for alarm? States across the country are reporting record-breaking sales thanks to Obama. Same excuse, different country.

www.irishtimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

So it seems it starts.

Disarming the public will be a big task. Anyone in Ireland have anything to add to this? I think the Irish will be easier disarmed than the rednecks in the US.
In a One World ANYTHING, there cannot be an armed populous who thinks that they still have the right to protect themselves against injustice. Injustice will be rampant.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Because stopping the law-abiding from owning firearms will somehow prevent the non law-abiding from getting them. I'm simply dumbfounded that people still believe this. And no unlicensed drivers are ever on the roads? Illegal drugs are never bought, sold used? Prohibition didnt drive the law-abiding underground creating a massive black market worth millions and resulting in the deaths of thousands?

This does seem to be something that many of our English friends do not understand. They walk in front of many video cameras when they leave their homes, assuring themselves that they are there to keep them safe.
The law-abiding citizens are un-armed because they think it keeps them safe.
While they seem to forget the fact that their criminals have no value for these laws, and are better equipped than even their police.

Originally posted by LostNemesis
I think the Irish will be easier disarmed than the rednecks in the US.

I was thinking about this after I posted the story. There's no way that all the stockpiles and caches from the guerrilla/terror war with Britain have all disappeared. Ireland is a pretty big place with lots of country and hiding spots.

I'm sure there are plenty of die-hard liberty-minded individuals in Ireland. Unless they do what the 'liberty' minded Brits do and fight tooth and nail for their own life until the Queen declares something be some way then they all stop fighting for themselves and fight for the crown against everyone else who is still fighting for themselves. For example, all the animosity they have toward the U.S. for it's gun owners. It wasnt all that long ago they were fighting to keep that right too.

Will the Irish fall in line with their government or will they fight for themselves and their personal liberties?

Personally, I think that the people of the UK(no offense, guys) have been stomped all over. I think many are over-worked, under-paid, and just don't have the energy to fight.
This seems true with the Irish I have known over the last few years. GREAT, wonderful people!! But I think they are just so used to trying to make ends meet, while still trying to find time to spend with their families, and hit the pub after work.

EDIT to add on: I hope you are right, that they won't just bend over, and take it from their own gov't. While they are very nice people, they are also very tempered if done wrong, and VERY stubborn.

We will see how this goes, I hope. I honestly hope the people are aware of what is going on, and will not just lose, without a fight.
Maybe they can be a good inspiration to every other country, for what is to come. That is my hope. It's not over.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by LostNemesis]

Originally posted by LostNemesis


This does seem to be something that many of our English friends do not understand. They walk in front of many video cameras when they leave their homes, assuring themselves that they are there to keep them safe.
The law-abiding citizens are un-armed because they think it keeps them safe.
While they seem to forget the fact that their criminals have no value for these laws, and are better equipped than even their police.

Hahahahha! Where do you get that idea from? Seriously, is there some weird hall of mirrors effect over the Atlantic that affects the way Americans see we British or something?

What you claim, that 'we' seem to think cameras are there to keep us safe, is very much a minority opinion. People, generally, are very distrustful of this and are concerned about the increase in surveillance society and the general intrusion into privacy, no matter how innocuous the government tries to dress it up as.

However, what's important to remember about this, the bulk of the cameras (not counting road-related cameras) are actually private cameras on private land to protect businesses and homes - not people per se. Yes, there are cameras is high streets and so on, but they don't account for the majority of these electronic peeping toms.

Also, as far as I'm aware surveillance society is also creeping up on Americans too. The government spying on it's citizens with lenses, wire-taps and so on. Yet you're the ones with the guns saying 'it won't happen here like it's happening there!' So what gives?

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

reply to post by Merriman Weir


You know, I fought and argued with an English friend of many years, about this same issue. I found it so annoying that I couldn't make him see my things. He didn't have to agree with me, just understand.

About the general public being so distrustful of these cameras, what group are you basing your info on? I would guess those on ATS.
Perhaps many of the normal public are just so uninvolved, and busy, that they just do not care.
One I had the conversation with, said it was nothing to worry about at all, and they are simply privately-owned by local businesses running the cams, to keep their own stores and properties safe. For all I know, it could be.

We done de-railing the thread?


EDIT: ahhh, I see you have an edit, too... lol

One thing I always found... kind of funny in an ironic way, is that Big Brother seems to be so popular...


[edit on 19-11-2008 by LostNemesis]

Originally posted by LostNemesis

You know, I fought and argued with an English friend of many years, about this same issue. I found it so annoying that I couldn't make him see my things. He didn't have to agree with me, just understand.

Understand what? We do understand. We probably actually understand the situation more than you. For one, we're aware of who owns most of these cameras - you don't seem to be, or rather unaccepting of this.

About the general public being so distrustful of these cameras, what group are you basing your info on? I would guess those on ATS.

No. I don't know anyone in 'real life' who posts here, but I know a lot of people off-line that are increasingly concerned with surveillance.

One I had the conversation with, said it was nothing to worry about at all, and they are simply privately-owned by local businesses running the cams, to keep their own stores and properties safe. For all I know, it could be.

But, at this moment in time, that is the case. Most of them are privately operated either in shops, shopping centres or on private homes for security.

EDIT: ahhh, I see you have an edit, too... lol

One thing I always found... kind of funny in an ironic way, is that Big Brother seems to be so popular...
[edit on 19-11-2008 by LostNemesis]

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate here, but I'm more than happy to have a mod post the 'before and after' versions of my post. Nothing more than a tidy-up; certainly not a Big Brother revision.

EDIT: in case I'm suspected of anything again, I've edited because I messed up the multiple quotes.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by Merriman Weir]

That is why weapons must never be registered. The minute they decide you can't have it they look up your name.

Don't have it even if you said you sold it or it was stolen?

You go to prison for life. (probably)

Some info I did not know:

Handguns were illegal in Ireland during the Troubles, but the High Court overturned the ban in 2004.

To stop what was essentially a war the government put a ban on handguns. I'm sure that worked out really well.

In an extremely rare example of impermanent legislation the court overturned the ban in 2004. The same year the U.S. AWB expired.

Now 4 years later they will reinstate the ban even though:

Growing gun violence has led to calls for a ban on the weapons, but shooting enthusiasts say licensed handguns have never been used in a murder in Ireland.

Apparently the simple fact that the licenses exist at all is making the grabbers nervous and a recent bout of gang shootings is pushing support for the ban. Even though gangs are criminal and do not operate within the confines of the law. Which would include a ban.

We have yet to have any members from Ireland respond with their opinions as far as I know. It would be interesting to hear from them as they experience the banning.

Any groups opposing it? How are they opposing it? Anybody planning on not turning in their firearms when their license expires? That sort of thing.

Also, if nobody can get a license how do you 'sell' them as per the structure of the ban? Are you forced to turn them into dealers at a huge loss of value? Will your government reimburse you since it was it's idea to ban them in the first place?

To clarify a few points.

I am from Ireland and I currently hold three firearms licences, for a shotgun, .308 rifle and a 9mm Pistol.
Ireland is not the US and we already have a very stringently regulated firearms licencing policy, this policy is much stricter for the licencing of pistols. At present there are 1800 licienced handguns in Ireland, this figure includes center fire pistol, revolver, rim fire .22 pistol and revolver as well as humane kill guns for vets etc, blank firing guns for race starts etc and air pistols, all of which are classed as handguns and must be licienced accordingly. Handguns in Ireland are licienced of one reason only, target sporting use, conditions of liciencing ensure you must be a member of an authorised range, have a monitored alarm system on your house, have an approved standard gun safe, have your house inspected by the local crime prevention officer from your local police station, have your medical records available for police inspection, fully justify you need for the firearm to your local superintendant (probably the same police rank as a US police captain or higher), and having met all these conditions the superintendant may still refuse to grant you a liceince.
The proposed ban is as a result of gangland murders related to organised crime and drugs trade, these people are smugelling these weapons into the country illegally and will be uneffected by any ban.
There is no right in Ireland to own a gun or any description, you cannot have a handgun in Ireland for the purpose of self defence, a notion which is silly to us, that is what the police are for.
We in the shooting sports community in Ireland as opposed to this ban, as we feel it is unjust to impose sanctions on us under the guise of been seen to take action on gun crime, No legally held sporting handgun has been used in a murder or crime in |Ireland.
With regard to the comments about the Northern Ireland situation, All weapons held by the IRA ( A Terrorist Organisation) have been decommissioned under independant review. This so called war, or more adaquetly described as a long term terrorist blight has no bearing on currently legally held firearms in Ireland. In Northern Ireland, still under UK control, handguns are still legal and will continue to be, in fact they were legal all through the troubles in NI and were not used by terrorists on either side of the devide.
On the question of what action will be taken by people who currently hold liceinces for handguns if the ban comes in, we will lobby our politions in a polite manner, persue any legal avenues we can identify through the courts system and if told to hand them in, quite simply we will, as to the comments about not doing so, since the police know who has them I would imagine you would recieve a visit and be charged will the illegal posetion of a Firearm.

READ THIS.. it seems they left an important part out of the ministers nonsense..

• the Minister will keep under annual review, in consultation with the Garda Commissioner, the outcome of the licensing procedure and, if the outcome of that procedure leaves a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to the community, will use new powers, which the Bill will contain, to ban outright any type of firearm.

and it goes on to say this

The Minister said "While I regret the need for these proposals, the reality is that if we were subject to a Dunblane type incident or stolen legal handguns were used to kill innocent civilians the present situation, which has not arisen as the result of any policy decision, would be impossible to justify."

www.justice.ie...

sounds to me like the end goal is the total ban on ANY firearms. his reasoning is that any gun could possibly be stolen so no legal guns will be allowed either.
lets keep an eye on crime rates here. should be interesting.



[edit on 3-12-2008 by turbokid]