"Deny Ignorance" and ATS members

We all know that the words "Deny Ignorance" are the motto of ATS, but I have a few questions about these words for my fellow members:

1. Who decides who is ignorant? Take for example chemtrails. If someone posts a picture of a plane claiming it's a sprayer, and someone who knows aviation comes along and debunks the picture, is the chemtrail person ignorant, or just not knowledgeable about aviation? If someone disagrees with what you say, are they ignorant, or do they have different beliefs than you do? Who is to say that I'm ignorant for believing A instead of B, when I look at the same evidence and see something different?

2. When did "Deny Ignorance" become the be all, end all of an argument? It seems everytime a thread gets kind of heated, the words "deny ignorance" are thrown out like that should be the end of the topic right there, and that person is automatically right for saying it. Again, who decides what's ignorant, and what's not? Especially if a topic shows evidence that can have multiple interpretations.

We all should strive to be less ignorant, but it's up to ourself to decide what's ignorant and what's not. It's not up to someone to tell me that I'm ignorant because I disagree with someone about what they're telling me. Just like it's not up to me to tell someone that they're ignorant because they don't have the experience or the knowledge that I might have. It's up to us to EDUCATE each other, and show each other where to find the proper information and the answers to questions. Not decide that since they believe differently, they're ignorant and try to shout them down with those two words.

Denying Ignorance is a good thing, but it's not the be all, end all that people seem to make it out to be in threads lately. Just because you can say "Deny Ignorance" to someone doesn't make you right. YOU may think that you're not being ignorant but the other person may think that you ARE being ignorant. Unless someone is denying absolute, ironclad, 100% positive evidence, then who can say if that person is being ignorant or if they just have a different view of things than you do? When did having a different view become being ignorant? I thought that the idea was to think for ourselves, not end up with all the same ideas, or all the same views.

Deny Ignorance!

Been saying this for ages. Its bloody irritating to be frank, that people can't debate and instead have to throw catchphrases around

well said Zap

...and also the disinfo agent remarks just because some disagrees with you
are getting boring as well

upload.wikimedia.org...

can't star here so follow the link OP



[edit on 13-11-2008 by The Utopian Penguin]

well thats the problem with forums. they let too many of those doom Sayers and others on. if that person just clicked the search button and saw that chem trails have been dis proven then there would be no need for him to make a thread.

From
Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary

IGNORANCE:
The state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education or awareness.

It seems to me that a lack of knowledge, education or awareness are all being rectified to some degree on this site. Granted, some do not believe facts that are presented to them but everybody gets the chance to see new ideas and to benefit from the act of deciding which way to think or believe.
I am a fairly intelligent person with a decent education and I have learned a number of new things since I started frequenting this site just 10 days ago. I am not only benefiting from the myriad of intelligent participants but the backwards,mean spirited and hateful also serve to open our eyes to the fact that some do think much differently than we do.
It affords us all an opportunity to look at these things we despise in others and ask if we share those traits and points of view ourselves.
I think that most of us do go away a little less ignorant than when we came here.
Of course that is just an opinion but I think it has merit.

I've tried to Deny Ignorance and have found at times that I was the ignorant one at the time. Being ignorant isn't always a bad thing because if you don't know the facts then you just don't know but at least your searching for it. To Deny something is to show you don't agree or believe in what another says. Ignorance comes from not being educated enough to find out the facts for yourself and you go on belief alone or you just don't know. I've been guilty of all and have learned a great deal of knowledge by listening to others but most of all researching it for myself. I actually wonder with the government lieing and all the past history of events maybe being a lie too, if any information is correct anymore. Who's to say that history is really the truth or the bible is the word of God etc... We can only go on whats been published by scienctist and record keepers who could of distorted the truth too. So actually OP you could have a point.
I only hope that there is some truth in all that has been recorded and written and that is why we research through all the mess to hopefully find that diamond in the rough.

[edit on 11/13/2008 by Solarskye]

I think ignorance gets a bad rap and some negative connotations that aren't really appropriate, especially sometimes here on ATS. Ignorance is simply "lack of knowledge." That's all. The state of being uninformed, not knowing something.

Once knowledge has been provided, lack of belief is not ignorance. Having knowledge of something, be it a theory, hypothesis, idea, concept, or fact, and choosing not to accept it is not ignorance. It may be denial, disbelief, application of logic or common sense, or possession of conflicting knowledge, but it is not ignorance.

Denying ignorance, therefore, does not involve anything other than providing knowledge. No accusations, badgering, arguing, labeling, name-calling, or anything else of a similar nature is required. To deny ignorance is simply to acquire and share knowledge. That's all.

It is, therefore (in my opinion) incorrect to call someone "ignorant" who is aware of a theory, idea, concept, evidence, or "facts" and chooses to disagree or disbelieve. Furthermore, "denying ignorance" does not require any efforts to change such a person's disagreement or disbelief. The knowledge - the information - has been given; therefore the recipient is no longer ignorant regardless of what s/he chooses to do with that knowledge.

In most cases people have already made thier opinion,as far as ignorance goes I've always told my kids and people who worked with me a stupid question is one that has not been asked

Great post! You do know that it doesn't matter how many times you spell it out to people, they aren't going to listen.

Sometimes, it seems like I'm trying to explain a card trick to a chicken.

Only a quote can answer this question.

The Simpsons

Reverend Lovejoy - Remember Homer, what Mathew said in [Matthew 7:26] "A foolish man who built his house on sand.''

Homer - Well remember what Mathew said in [Matthew 21:17]

Reverend Lovejoy - "And he left them and went out of the city into Bethany and he lodged there"

Homer - Yea..... Think about it...

I think the message is that ignorance is the eyes of the beholder, sometimes the man that invested all his money in todays stocks ends up broke while the crazy kook that buried in the back yard still has it... as long as he doesn't forget where he barried it.

reply to post by badgerprints


In order to deny ignorance, one must first be willing to call their own assumptions of what is correct into question.
Just because one may feel they know the answer to something, does not necessarily mean it is correct. There are also different levels to the answers to any particular question. one must be able to look past, examine, and make the determinations for ones own self to what is correct or not. Even then, that answer is subject to interpretation.

To deny ignorance, one may struggle their entire life, beyond any doubt in their own mind, that an answer is correct, only to be dis proven later by someone else. To deny ignorance is a constant struggle, that in reality has no chance of ever being fulfilled in anyone's own lifetime.
One must eventually settle upon an answer, accept it as fact, and move on, or be condemned to search for the answers for their whole life. Every question that finds an answer, only expounds on the question itself, raising new questions. Denying ignorance is all but impossible for us, for if we settle on any answer, we are being ignorant of any other possibilities.

I admit that I am ignorant about alot of things .
But from reading those that deny it ...I actually think it is a good thing to be somewhat ignorant .Those who think they know it all ..cannot be taught anything new ..no one is a challenge to them anymore ...they are bored ..and we are just their play toy ...

So I believe I would rather not deny ignorance ...

I would categorize two kinds of ignorance.

The first is the passive sort, where a person simply doesn't have the information needed to come to a reasonable conclusion. That can be fixed by research. The second is active, where a person begins at a fortified conclusion of what is "true" or "correct" and resists any attempts to by swayed by information.

Ideally, we'd see more passive ignorance here as it's easier to fix. Too often, we see the active kind, which is harder since it ultimately comes down the the other person making a realization of their own bias. I'm not sure how you become aware of your own active ignorance or point it out in others...part of the problem in that case is they/you simply don't see it as ignorance and therefore don't "deny" it.

reply to post by Hal9000


That is what Denying Ignorance SHOULD be. But somehow it has become the be all end all to many threads to shout those two words at everyone, and think that you're right.

As to what I said about a belief, it's entirely possible that we can both look at the same evidence and draw two different conclusions to the same thing. I believe that I'm right, and you believe that you're right. That doesn't make either of us actually ignorant. It simply means that we're looking at things based on what we know and drawing different conclusions.

reply to post by Hal9000


Exactly. Nicely put.
To understand completely, one must understand the extremes that something can go to. Then after all is said and done, a choice must be made whether or not to settle on that answer or continue looking. Even after you settle on an answer, someone may just upset your entire understanding by bringing a viewpoint you may not have considered.

A Great thread worthy of attention!!!........I have read most but this stands out to me as being 'worthy'

Great post! You do know that it doesn't matter how many times you spell it out to people, they aren't going to listen.

good luck

Originally posted by Hal9000

Being an old timer here at ATS, I remember an explanation of the motto "Deny Ignorance" on the home page, which has since been removed. Now in the About ATS link on the home page it says "Deny Ignorance is what we do", but I like the original explanation better.

It said that denying ignorance was finding the truth of something. As the OP stated sometimes the truth is more of a belief, but I don't agree. It is either true, or it isn't. The problem is, in a place with so many people and opposing views, how do we find the truth?

The way it was explained was that the truth was usually found somewhere in between the two extremes of any given discussion. The truth was usually found in the middle where most of the people usually stood.

Ignorance can come in many forms. For some it is simply the absence of knowledge. For others it is having false knowledge. You can not find the truth without looking at both extremes, and that is why we welcome all views as long as people respect each other. Without the extremes, we can't find the truth.

Denying Ignorance is the ability to discuss a topic and explore the extremes to find the truth. Sometimes that means adjusting your opinion as new information becomes available. It is those that cannot adjust or change their mind that allows ignorance to thrive. None of us know everything and we can all learn something new from each other. That is "Denying Ignorance".

I was just about to say something along those lines, all though I dont think I was here when they had the old description of what "deny ignorance" means. Denying ignorance means so much to so many. here is what "Deny Ignorance means to me.

To me, Denying ignorance means, to learn all I can. To research and work hard to find little tidbits of truth as much as possible. To deny ignorance is to consider both sides. It is to look into all possiblities. It is too help find different possibilities.

Denying ignorance, is not allowing hoaxers and trollers to spread lies. It is to not allow this site become corrupted with BS.

It is following what feels right in my heart. It is applying knowledge, facts and common sense to a topic that might not have much being used.

It is thinking things through. It is researcing and knowing what you are talking about before posting or creating a thread.

Deny ignorance means Doing all you can to help yourself and everyone else find truth.

That is what Deny Ignorance means to me.It is such a simple phrase yet it means so much to me and so many others.


That is what it means to me.

Deny ignorance.


Thanks for the opportunity to say that. I like this thread. It will no doubt give people the chance to state what "deny Ignorance means to them"

I suspect there will be quite a few good answers.

Flag and star

Dust

[edit on 15-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

Hmm I flagged the thread but for whatever reason I cant star it. there doesnt seem to be any star for me to click on. Am I the only one having this issue? Its just in this thread for me.

If I could star you I would zap. Perhaps it will be working correctly soon. If so I will star you.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


You can't star posts in the BB&Q Forum.
Ignorance denied.
See how simple it can be,