Bailout ramifications: what happens next for America and the world

For obvious reasons, the 'bailout' is a major concern for most people. However, what really concerns me is the way America will address and adjust to the financial position it's in.

As an observation rather than a criticism - and if this board is indicative of any kind of sample, then this certainly holds(!) - I believe America, due to the patriot culture that's nurtured there, has a tendency to believe America is not only the 'best' but speak of this in terms as if it's the natural order of things or a 'God-given' right. Before anyone jumps the proverbial gun, I'm not saying that this is either 'right' or 'wrong'; again, it's merely an observation on American patriot culture. I'm certainly not America-bashing here. Also, whilst there's a saying that goes something along the lines of 'America doesn't do irony', I also think 'America doesn't do humility' either; America is both a proud and vocal nation. Again, an observation born from witnessing countless expressions of patriotism rather than a criticism: I'm not saying this is 'right' or 'wrong' per se.

If America's place on the world stage is moved anywhere from out of centre, even slightly, I think America will take it much more badly than other countries might. Whilst every country in the world, or at least you'd hope, wants to do the 'best it can', there's very few - if any - in the Western World that also has America's take on patriotism.

What I'm becoming concerned about are the parallels being made to the 1920s and 1930s. Whereas most of these are about of the depressions and recessions themselves, I'm more concerned as to how these economic conditions were actually addressed.

I think most people on this board would admit that America has a fairly aggressive foreign policy, even if they don't agree on why that might be. Again, merely an observation. Similarly, I think a lot of people on this board would agree that 'big business' and an 'economy' drives and even creates the conflict.

I'm genuinely concerned that major war is going to be America's solution to this problem. Over recent years, the nature of war has changed due to technology which has altered the way people physically engage in warfare. However, I'm wondering whether this will take a major U-turn in the next few years. If this recession/depression is going to hit as hard as most people are expecting, there's going to be a lot of unemployed, economic 'deadwood' in America (and, for the matter, the rest of the world). The expendable 'deadwood' in society have always made great cannon-fodder for the rich man's war games. Whilst talks about bringing back 'the draft' have been floating around conspiracy boards for a few years now, I think it's probably more likely than ever now if unemployment really hits hard.

I'm not saying this as a 'prediction' or that I have a 'secret source' or that I just know how this is right and I can somehow prove it. If anything, I'm hoping posters, particularly Americans, can/will come along and prove me wrong and show me that this can't happen and that they, the American people, separate from the government won't let this happen.

Or am I misreading this? If things get as desperate as is being suggested, would the American people want war as much as the government if they thought it would return America back to the centre stage and the dominant position in the world?

good morning,

war is way too destructive, so the globalists have a different plan

the USA is going to be like a carcass in the backyard...
armies of ants will dismember it, and cart pieces into their colony

the skeleton will be in disarray after the birds and neighbood dogs scavange the remains.




~~~~~~~~

thanks... i've hit another milestone... a symmetrical point total "35553"

[edit on 25-9-2008 by St Udio]

Hi There,

I believe I can agree with a number of points you make, particulary regarding patriotism and how it has been inculcated to motivate the American heart. Unlike however, the slow change of British patriotism that through historical experience at home and around the world, changed to a perception of questioning blind-obedience to the 'powers-that-be', for one that saw the need for social change, I further believe that the American conscience is more than capable of awakening to the pros and cons of patriotism itself.

I agree that there still remains a entrenchment in patriotism as being part of the cure-all for the dis-ease in American culture, but the 'real' realisation of the benefits of social change through social altruistic co-operation rather than militarised organising, is that culture becomes less of a 'hive' activity, and more of a humane one.

Patriotism does have its place, and we must remember that for America it was born out of their struggle for independence, born out of the struggle to create a fairer society than anything that currently existed in the world. Indeed, it was a Englishman whose words were used to awaken the colonial heart to right-thinking and right-action against British monarchial tyranny.

The tyranny in America today, however, comes not from a British king or queen, but from corporate entities, vast and large in their sphere of influence and power, and where the elected representatives are supposed to protect the American people from such things, they have abdicated that responsibility to both greed and avarice. The American people know that war is not the answer, but social change within their own culture...the template of which is written in that cry and declaration for human freedom...the Constitution. If their patriotism is required, let it be for the unchanging and humane ideology contained in that document, for anything or anyone that seeks to suppress or oppress it...is the 'real' enemy of America. Especially so if treachery within seeks to supplant it with a wholly alien ideology that is antithetical to the American dream.

Best wishes

Originally posted by elysiumfire
Hi There,

I further believe that the American conscience is more than capable of awakening to the pros and cons of patriotism itself.

I'd like to think that too as I don't ascribe to cultural stereotypes such as 'loud, dumb Yanks' in the same way that I hope Americans on this board really don't believe the 'bowler, butler and bad teeth' cultural stereotypes that are perpetuated about the English. However, I worry that the patriotism is so ingrained, that it's actually 'untouchable' and 'above question'. Often, discussion about patriotism tends to take on the form as to what is actually patriotic rather than the issue of patriotism itself.

Again, I'm desperate to reiterate the point that this isn't criticism, merely observation. As you say yourself, patriotism has its place; my opening post is about how American patriotism maybe enacted upon in light of the mess that's happening at the moment.

The tyranny in America today, however, comes not from a British king or queen, but from corporate entities, vast and large in their sphere of influence and power, and where the elected representatives are supposed to protect the American people from such things, they have abdicated that responsibility to both greed and avarice.

I think one of the problems I see with this, as whilst I whole-heartedly agree with your general point, is that disparity between a monarchy and 'the American dream/capitalism'. Whilst Royalists may support a monarchy, it's tacitly understood that there's a divide between aristocracy and commoners, it' acknowledged that it's very rare for social mobility to include a rise to the very top. Yet one of the cornerstones of American patriotism is 'the dream', the belief that anyone (in theory!) can rise to the top with application and hard work.

So, in that sense, whereas the British "tyranny" was understood by everyone as being explicitly exclusive, the American version has at least promoted the idea that it was a potentially inclusive one. As long as that is believed, the relationship between the country and the citizen/subject, and perhaps what they're willing to invest in that country, is always going to have a slightly different aspect to it and nurture a different kind of patriotism.

I'd hope that Americans did see genuine 'social change' as an alternative, but I'm not sure whether their form patriotism really allows for too much of that. What is and what is not American &c is set in stone for many and as long as that's there, I think the opportunity and means for change is always going to be restricted.

One last time(!) none of this is a criticism purely the observations of an non-American who is more than aware that his own country is corrupt, rife with problems and also in dire need of change.

I'd like to thank both yourself and St Udio for a polite and civil thread. It's genuinely nice to met with a 'good morning' when reading replies.

What's Next...

I would watch for immediate short-term lay-offs from GM and Caterpilar and possibly others. Shrub needs the American people to begin relating personally to the Wall Street mess. Companies will begin to site the cost of short-term credit to meet operations and payroll costs. Trickle-down economics becomes a waterfall of debt that washes away those least able to afford it. With less than 10% of Americans supporting the bailout...."They" are going to start sending immediate messages to Main Street as they like to call us about how this affects YOU.

Just my two cents...drawn from a line of credit of course...that is no longer available.

this answer won't be as philosophical or poetic as my earlier one.

the approaching "Bailout" of the finance/banker class
((euphamistically termed the 'financial industry')) is officially designated;

TARP

which means Troubled Asset Relief Program


if one listens & hears the words of messrs Paulson, Bernanke, & their choir... this complete rescue is not focused or pinpointed to help or assist the Mortgages...as most think the 'bailout' is supposed to be for.


This TARP lifeline is going to buy up all the 'troubled assets' which the are more like the Derivatives and Credit Default Swaps.... that most of the elite banker class created and bought/sold -> except that now, especially after AIG went under, there is a blocked artery in the credit creating booodstream. (now you understand how the low keyed sub-prime credit downturn,,,,suddenly became a Financial Crisis in just a few days)



the Fed, now with active participation of Treasury, will soon be the beneficary of some $700bn...so as to unblock the credit swap & credit creation function of the 4-5 remaining, large Market Movers...
JP Morgan/Chase, Goldman Sachs, CitiGroup, & the new fledgling BankofAmerica...
i suspect some of the $700bn will be parced out in chump-change to the Merrills & Morgans perhaps the WaMu & NationalBank, maybe a few others...
but the core finance & economy drivers, are what are left after the culling,
think of them as the foot soldiers of the masters...
or think of the them as the four-horsemen...


whats the future> the Bank of International Settlements will pat Paulson. Bernanke & Bush on the head for accomplishing the instructed task...


( how's that for a psychological thriller story line? )




thanks,

[edit on 25-9-2008 by St Udio]