Finally the candidates talk about the bank collapses and poor economy:

So today the candidates finally began speaking about the economic meltdown, but I think it's such a disaster that they had no choice and the one party that has become so versed in distractions even could not distract us from the issue of the economy any longer. While they did finally begin to seriously discuss it, almost no attention (I didn't hear anything but maybe someone did?) was given towards emergency contingency plans regarding what they would do to deal with a total meltdown and Great Depression like event. That said, here is a very brief summary based on what I have gathered from the news (ABC & PBS) and of course information is readily available here on the net:

McCain: Campaigning in Florida said while looking somewhat dis-shelved, that the economy was "fundamentally sound", and then later in the day referred to it as a crisis and went as far as to acknowledge that the regulatory system (I'll say lack there of) is broken.

Palin: Who was in Golden Colorado said we need to "overhaul regulatory agencies", but I wasn't clear what exactly her plan on that would be...generally the conservative approach towards overhauling regulation is decreasing it so we will have to wait and see what type of "change" here we are actually talking about

Obama: Was in Grand Jct. Colorado and said that Republican policies got us here with these points: *8 years of shredded consumer protection measures * discouraged oversight * encouraged massive CEO and executive salary and bonus programs while the average american sees his/her real wage stay the same or go down, and * Worst economy since Great Depression

Biden: Was in Michigan and echoed Obama saying we are here because of failed Republican economic policy.

major economists said it is the worst since the Great Depression validating Obama's comments, and Alan Greenspan called it a "once in a century phenomena" and "the worst [he has] ever seen", and that it still has a way to go. Indeed the major consensus is that it isn't over and we aren't half way there (to the bottom of this thing yet).

The big question continues to be what this really means for all of us, the average people of America. You know, back in the 30's only a small percentage of folks lived in the cities whereas the bulk of the population lived in rural settings with more access to things like fresh cow's milk, eggs, garden grown food that was available fresh or from home canning etc...but today more than 2/3rds of the people live in major urban centers or in suburbs with few gardens, and almost no hens and garden veggies...It has been reported by FEMA that on average American's have only about a 3 1/2 day food supply and that includes not just what is on the shelves at home but at the stores too...my question then continues to be with this thread, What will the candidates do if we end up with a great depression like disaster? Nothing has been said, and this is troublesome to me. The closest anyone has come was Obama today when he suggested we need to proactively manage this thing before it spirals out of control into disaster, but that's where he stopped. Another comment I have, is that this should have been center stage months ago, and definately last week when the right wingers like Hanity, Limbaugh, Beck, O'Rhiely and everyone over at Fox and in the McCain campaign had us listen nonstop to their whining about pigs and lipstick in their successful attempt to derail the topic and stear it away from the issues. Maybe now we can see where each one stands and what they plan to do about something that really matters!

Please be sure that your seat belts are securely buckled and that your personal belongs are secure, I think we are in for a bumpy ride!




[edit on 15-9-2008 by skyshow]

I have been at work all day, so my only input on this has been the Dave Ramsey show on the way to work. His take is that the economy is basically still sound, just that it got dealt a black eye. His opinion is based on the fact that there was no depression in the 80s when thousands of smaller banks went out of business or were consumed by larger banking industries.

While it is not actually funny, McCain cracks me up everytime he opens his mouth. Inevitably he is going to countradict himself from some point in the past of future. I think they need to just use one speech writer instead of two. I swear they are competing.
"My name is John McCain and I approve this message."
One week later, "I never condoned the message in that commercial."

He's like having two pullstring dolls in one body and the strings are aptly labeled "Left" and "Right".

reply to post by wheresthetruth


Thank god I'm fortunate enough to live in a radio market that has a liberal talk radio station offering other viewpoints with hosts such as Randi Rhodes, Ed Shultz, Rachael Madow and others because I love talk shows, although it's on the weekest signal in the area...I had to spend all last week outside of the market and all I got was 3 christian right wing stations, 3 conservative talk radio stations and a catholic one, oh plus all sports! Not that I don't think conservatives make good talk show hosts because they do, it's just that it's so predictable and reactionary, plus generally it's the same topic (sometimes two or three but often just one) in rotation from show to show To be fair on the FM I could find NPR, but I'm talking about the lack of liberal radio and NPR is pretty middle of the road (although many of you would like to believe otherwise as folks on the right have told you to believe) Everywhere it's all conservative including this host you speak of and I noticed last week while spending hours in the car that they were all saying exactly the same thing, and then I turn on Fox news and guess what? It was the same thing almost identical to what the conservative talk show host were saying.

So this evening I was at the gym, and I noticed Fox news was on, and given the major news of the day with the bankruptcy of another major financial firm and the growing financial problem that Greenspan said was an event of the century, and compared it to the Great Depression, and O'Reilly was talking about Palin's poor treatment by Gibson (the first interview since the convention) and pigs with lipstick. I used to get the GOP talking points on email everyday (I got sick of it and got off the list) and then you could bet money on it that that is exactly what the am radio talk show hosts will cover all day long...Am I the only one who notices this and thinks something is way wrong when a week later the host is still going on and on about that common analogy of putting pigs on lip...oops, I mean lipstick on a pig?

This is why if we have a total economic melt down and you're a common person like I am you better know what kind of treatment you are going to get from the guy you vote for! Man, this is no time for politics as usual...what is wrong with people? 3 1/2 day food supply...if we end up in a depression and there is no plan your going to see a societal meltdown when folks get hungry and have no help from the govn't.

We need a new approach to this whole thing. We have to have oversight on the corporations and a more responsible do something approach to the economy. We need a whole new cabinet with all new folks in there. With McCain your going to get more of the same with some of the same folks who brougt us this mess in charge of running the show...foxes guarding the henhouse anyone? Notice I didn't say lipstick on the pig, but just of easily could have.




[edit on 16-9-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow


I wish I had more options to listen to a variety of talk show hosts, but my schedule does not allow much time for radio. I listen to Dave a couple times a week because he does in fact promote a common sense approach to saving money. I dont always agree with a lot of his views, though.
The alternative is to listen to Bill O'Reily, but I cant get through more than a few minutes of his show before I have to change the channel.
Most days, it comes down to those two or the local rock station and you can imagine who wins.

I frequent ATS for more and more of my daily news. I dont do so to get everyone elses opinion as much as the links to current events without having to keep a ton of bookmarks. I also like the debating that goes on here because it gives insight into the common man's viewpoint on what is going on in the world.

reply to post by wheresthetruth


*edit: day after: got to thinking, I may have Dave Ramsey confused with another host I was listening to but can't think of his name...just now I recalled that Ramsey is generally about micro economies and budgeting...getting rid of debt etc...anyway I wanted to add that *

not to get off topic, but I did enjoy Dave Ramsey...I bet he talked about the economy today? I didn't listen, but I did catch an hour or so last week. I guess even though I don't agree with most things on there, I do enjoy hearing the opinions of the other side. It seems like to me that there is a genuine distrust of city folk by those out in the country and an almost paranoid belief that somehow the snobby intellectuals from academia in town are going to conspire with the urbanites and have some sort of godless (cause they are all bleeding heart atheists...as the perception goes) crusades whereby the city folk get in their Beamers and jaguars and Subaru wagons and haul out into the country side with bottled water in one hand and a Starbucks double late in the other, and hog tie everyone in a homosexual rage whereby all country folk get hit on by swingers from back in the city and after that have their guns taken away. I really think there are some who are terrified of this as funny as it sounds. there are some deep seeded and misguided fears there, and it's not accident either because there are interests who benifit from such bizarre thinking and promote it in society. Some folks have been so manipulated and programmed by the right machine through the years that I think many of them actually believe this.

Anyway, I have lived in both the country and the urban setting. I have lived in both blue and red states and both blue and red precincts plus done a lot of traveling, so I can say of course that what I just said above is the exception rather than the rule and I was trying to be funny, yet, I think for quite a few folk (cause you hear them call into talk radio and voice some of these concerns) there is some deep suspiciousness of the city intellectuals in general. It doesn't mean they are bad people, just misinformed and perhaps a bit scared. The shamefull part is that there is now a whole party that caters to this mentality, perpetuates it, and profits from it. Somehow we need to break down the barriers between the two worlds and get some interaction going so that the stereotypes and misperceptions can be broken up. After all when the people can so easily be divided like this it makes it easier for the powers that be to control the people and it's counterproductive towards democracy and America in my opinion.

Now I'm not naive enough to suggest that there hasn't been some propaganda and manipulated beliefs on the left either...but recently the problems in America and it's mismanagement by a party that lost it's marbles and scruples, that it has had to leave the bs behind and assume it's roll as the check in the checks and balance thing...seriously, listen to liberal talk shows, it's all issues and what are we going to do to fix things...anyway, I know I"m going to get torn apart by some of this, but it's what I see happening.



[edit on 16-9-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 16-9-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow


sky, what I saw of Palin's speech in Colorado, regarding the Wall Street crisis, as a line about adding MORE requlation. Seems odd coming from a GOP mouthpiece, where the alleged 'mantra' is less, not more.

For Right to use the scare tactics that the Laft will increase regulation and bureaucracy, then to see them actually doing it and advocating more, is the height of hyprocisy.

Where's Bush and Cheney in all this. Don't we have a president that should be handling it?

Paulson isn't the prez.

Oh wait. . .I'm sorry. I got a little too idealistic for a moment.

Thuth
Snip






Mod Edit: Please see Terms and Conditions of Use section 4) Advertising. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 16/9/08 by JAK]

The current banking crises was actually initiated by a bill passed into law by McCains economic advisor Senator Phill Gramm which negated the Glass-Steagall act 1933 which was a stop gap measure to to regulate lending practices which caused the last depression I might add.

Phil Gramm, McCain's economic adviser BTW who recently was quoted as saying that all the complaining about the economy "was mental due to Americans being a nation of Whiners" !

As they say ....If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.

reply to post by space57


I presume that Bush and Dick are preoccupied with "The War on Terror".

What kills me the most is that Sen. McCain has no idea about the economy and much less how to get us out of this mess, you would think that if someone doesn't have the knowledge he would surround himself with people that have a clue...right?

"The story line that people want to write that somehow McCain himself or the McCain campaign doesn't understand what's going on in the economy is just wrong," Holtz-Eakin said. "We do. But you shouldn't run for president by denigrating everything in sight and trying to scare people."

A McCain staffer whining because the Obama camp is attacking McCain on this issue. And on top of that accusing the Obama camp of scare tactics?! This is laughable.

Emphasizing that his candidate is running for president and not "chairman of the SEC," Holtz-Eakin said that the campaign will not be writing any legislation but rather laying out guidelines that legislation should adhere to.

"Now, there's no magic solution and I don't think it's at this moment imperative to write down exactly what the plan has to be" Holtz-Eakin said. "But there should be an understanding that when you walk out of the Congress with a piece of legislation in the next administration, those boxes are checked and those things are effectively accomplished."

They are not worried about having a plan to deal with this economic chaos,they are to busy mudslinging their way to the Presidency. They rather spend their time talking about pigs,lipstick, Paris, Britney and sex education for kindergarden students, than crafting a plan for the economy. They just want to get in office and improvise as they go with the same taxcuts for the rich and corporations that Bush failed economic policies put in place.

According to the McCain campaign, those checkboxes include "an effective safety and soundness regulator for every financial institution,"

Huh? Every financial institution?

"better consumer protections," "improvements in corporate governance" and appropriate solutions to "system stability issues."

How are we going to accomplish that, this language spewed out by the McCain campaign amounts to someone that really has no clue and they just throwing words out there.

When asked what exactly makes McCain more qualified to address these problems than Obama, Holtz-Eakin pointed to McCain's chairmanship of the Senate Commerce Committee.

firstread.msnbc.msn.com...

John McCain's Phil Gramm problem

Now that long ago, Gramm said the economy was sound and Americans were whiners. Now McCain -- on the day Wall Street implodes and stocks crash -- says the nation's economic fundamentals are sound.

Enough said.




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reply to post by skyshow


I'm just tired of hearing the Democrats blame the current economic policies, because their policies are based off the same exact failed economic model. The only difference being that they are even more against free markets than the current Republican leaders. Very dishonest of them.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


You're exactly right! Neither party has done anything to stop this from happening or done anything to improve it. All I hear and see is each one blaming the other. It's time to stop the blaming, stop the trashing of each other in political ads, stop all the I'm gonna do this and that to help out the economy by adding more government and listen to the people for a change. There's the fair tax out there that would help out alot and bring back & create new big businesses. There's people who need tax breaks and have been begging for them for years. There's people who want to work, but thanks to the politicians, there's no work to be found unless you move out of the country.

I'd like to see people put up ideas and policies that the government goes over and approves with the people. The politicians are passes bills and policies left and right and we don't have a say in it. So far I haven't heard anything from either of the candidates about what and how they are going to do what they say. Less government is what I want to hear. Companies screw up and companies fix it, not the government.

If congress is just wakeing up to this problem them they were asleep as usual and we need some bodies out there that are young or younger than these sleepy old farts there. Don't tell me that they didn't know that this was coming. As long as their pockets were lined with silver they put on a blinder on their eye. They always have some committee for this and for that so surely they knew something was going to happen but they just didn't take any action. Get rid of the bums and lets elect new ones and hopefully more knowledgeable than what there right now.

reply to post by Brothers


Look for some archived footage from C-SPAN regarding these committees, their discussions, and questions by their members to the Fed and their fellow politicians about these issues. Not everyone turned a blind eye. Some saw this coming a long time ago.

What it comes down to is most of the people involved only know one philosophy of economics, the one currently in use, and now that it is reaching a collapsing point, they have no idea how to address the issue, so they try to avoid it. Even Bernake has shown that he has NO IDEA how to handle the current issues in the economy. Not surprising, because you can't fix what's broken, and our current economic has been broken from the start. It was never meant to be sustainable forever. It was only ever meant as a means for those at the top to milk those at the bottom dry. The "cycles" of the economy have allowed it to refresh, recharge and be drained again, but anyone who understood the model knew years ago that, at some point, someone was going to make a missteps and drain things a little too far, and break the cycle.

And yet here we have two more dopes pushing the same old system....and we can't ignore the fact that they are, of course, among those who benefit from the draining of the common man. No coincidence, that.

The problems this country faces aren't so difficult and complex as people seem to think. The biggest problem is that almost everyone trying to address the issues is an ignorant fool who has no idea what they are dealing with and no understanding of the broader scope of the issues. The solutions are there; the problem is that they are laughed away when they can still be instituted to solve the problem, and then are looked upon fondly in retrospect.

Maybe someday, policy and intelligence will be more important to the average voter than style and rhetoric and being "presidential;" then again, probably not.

reply to post by skyshow

Originally posted by skyshow
Thank god I'm fortunate enough to live in a radio market that has a liberal talk radio station offering other viewpoints with hosts such as Randi Rhodes, Ed Shultz, Rachael Madow and others because I love talk shows, although it's on the weekest signal in the area...

You're fortunate. I'd like to be able to listen to liberal talk radio, but the only show I get is Alan Colmes, and it's pretty bland, imo. There are plenty of conservative talk shows, tho.

I've recently been listening to radio over the internet - it opens up a whole new world of choices.

reply to post by nh_ee

The current banking crises was actually initiated by a bill passed into law by McCains economic advisor Senator Phill Gramm which negated the Glass-Steagall act 1933 which was a stop gap measure to to regulate lending practices which caused the last depression I might add.

I like the way you blame Phill for all of this.

Counts: YEAs 90
NAYs 8
Present 1
Not Voting 1

source

That's the Senate vote.

Yeas Nays PRES NV
Republican 207 5 10
Democratic 155 51 5
Independent 1
TOTALS 362 57 15

source

This is the house vote.



Need I also remind you That President Bill Clinton signed it into law and potential Vice President Biden voted yea.

*sighs* Please tell me that those who are blaming either side (republicans and democrats) are joking. If not, trust me... you are *still* distracted, as you are intended to be.

"Finally the candidates start talking" should be a clue that perhaps they were waiting to be told what to say. Listen, none of us have had the kind of "education" these ppl supposedly have had and yet I have seen great solutions that should be obvious to these idiots come from you. The solutions are simple (they may not be insta-fix and will require sacrifices on the part of us all), so the fact that they aren't being talked about, let alone put into action tells me there is more than meets the eye in all this "economic crises."

We are not the ones losing in the economy.. if you haven't noticed, most of us are living off borrowed money. We lost ever since we allowed paper to be implemented into the system. The dollar is hardly worth the paper it is printed on. What is going on in Wall Street is merely a battle to decide who will get to collect the debt we have been eagerly racking up.

Yup, I'd say bumpy ride was a bit of an understatement.


[edit on 16-9-2008 by justamomma]

The major problem, in my opinion, is the fact these huge financial institution are public (coated in the stock exchanges). This presents three major problems:

- The CEO's salaries are largely based on a yearly profit performance. Thus, said CEO's tend to take very high risks, in order to receive huge prizes, at the end of the fiscal year.

- The first problem generates another, far worst, problem. The institution is left with no long term strategies, thus leaving it vulnerable to any, even minor, economic crises.

- The third problem is the stock market. The Institutions are too exposed, due to continuous stock emissions, to any bad news, in the economy, or about the said institution. An Institution so exposed in the stock market can easily loose 50%, or even 80%, of it's value, in a few hours (the fall of the .com's).

Then we have a structural economic problem, in the most developed countries. This problem is the lack of production. These economies are largely based on speculation in the market, and on services...
Wealth isn't generated, it's just traded between financial institutions. The productive part of the economy, manufacturing, is vastly uncapitalized, and cannot compete, price wise, with industries with far less expanses...

We, the developed nations, have entered into a downward spiral, with very few remedies left on the shelf. They are all very hard to take, and would involve the restructure of the world's economic relations (large increase on import tariffs, huge fines for companies that send their production units to third world countries etc.).

The big question is, are the western leaders ready to sit down, and discuss ways out of this economic downfall? Are they willing to make the tough decisions, or are they so indebted to big companies, that any such attempt would bring on the destruction of the "democratic" system?

Until then, we can only expect "sound bites", and short term patches, for long term structural problems...(Aspirins to cure an Pneumonia)...

reply to post by skyshow


Now that we know the Federal Reserve is a privately owned, for-profit corporation, a natural question would be: who OWNS this company? Peter Kershaw provides the answer in "Economic Solutions" where he lists the ten primary shareholders in the Federal Reserve banking system.

1) The Rothschild Family - London 2) The Rothschild Family - Berlin 3) The Lazard Brothers - Paris 4) Israel Seiff - Italy 5) Kuhn-Loeb Company - Germany 6) The Warburgs - Amsterdam 7) The Warburgs - Hamburg 8) Lehman Brothers - New York 9) Goldman & Sachs - New York 10) The Rockefeller Family - New York
Now I don't know about you, but something is terribly wrong with this situation. Namely, don't we live in AMERICA? If so, why are seven of the top ten stockholders located in FOREIGN countries? That's 70%! To further convey how screwed-up this system is, Jim Marrs provides the following data in his phenomenal book, "Rule By Secrecy.
" He says that the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which undeniably controls the other eleven Federal Reserve branches, is essentially controlled by two financial institutions:
1) Chase-Manhattan (controlled by the Rockefellers) - 6,389,445 shares - 32.
3%
2) Citbank - 4,051,851 shares - 20.
5%
Thus, these two entities control nearly 53% of the New York Federal Reserve Bank. Doesn't that boggle your mind? Now, considering how many trillions of dollars are involved here, and how the bankers are WAY above our "selected" officials in Washington, D.C., do you think the above-listed banks and families have an inordinate amount of say-so in how our country is being run? The answer is blindingly apparent.

Where does the money come from?
We all know that the Federal Reserve CORPORATION prints money - then loans it, at interest, to our government. But wait until you see what a total scam this process is. But before we get to the meat of this issue, let's remember one thing about the very essence of banking - primarily that money should have some type of standard upon which its value is based. In the case of America, we operate on what is called a "gold standard" (i.e. our money is backed by gold).

So, with that in mind, let's look at how money is actually created, and at what cost. If the Federal Reserve wants to print 1,000 one-hundred ($100) bills, their total cost for ink, paper, plates, labor, etc. would be approximately $23.00 (according to Davvy Kidd in "Why A Bankrupt America"). Now, if you do the math, the total cost of 10,000 bills would be $230.00 ($.023 x 10,000). But, and here's the catch - 10,000 $100 bills equals $1,000,000! So, the Federal Reserve can "create" a million dollars, then LEND it to the U.S. Government (with interest) for a total cost of $230.
00! That's not a bad deal, huh!
The banking industry calls this process "seignorage." I call it outright THEFT. Why? Well, regardless of the immense profit margin ($1,000,000 for $230), plus the huge interest payments, our government then needs to STEAL the American people's money to payoff their debts via a Mob-like agency called the IRS. So the bankers steal from the government, then the government turns around and steals from the people. I'm no genius, but who do you think is getting screwed in this process? US - the people at the bottom rung of the ladder.

What's worse is that - now catch your breath - there's NO MORE gold left in Fort Knox! It's all gone. In other words, the GOLD STANDARD that our financial system was based upon is now an illusion. We can't convert our money into gold --- only other currency. The entire underlying basis for our money is now a lie - a sham. The Federal Reserve has become so arrogant that they've become a literal MONEY MAKING MACHINE, creating currency out of thin air! So that's where the Fed gets their money - they literally make it, then lend it to us so they can make even MORE money off of it.

Money As A Religion
The above-detailed process has become so ridiculous that William Grieder, former assistant managing editor of the Washington Post, wrote a book in 1987 entitled, "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" that details how the Controllers have conditioned us to accept this absurd situation.

To modern minds," he writes, "it seemed bizarre to think of the Federal Reserve as a religious institution. Yet the conspiracy theorists, in their own demented way, were on to something real and significant. The Fed did also function in the realm of religion. Its mysterious powers of money creation, inherited from priestly forebears, shielded a complex bundle of social and psychological meanings. With its own form of secret incantation, the Federal Reserve presided over awesome social ritual, transactions so powerful and frightening they seemed to lie beyond common understanding.
"
Mr. Grieder continues, "Above all, money was a function of faith. It required implicit and universal social consent that was indeed mysterious. To create money and use it, each one must believe, and everyone must believe. Only then did worthless pieces of paper take on value.
"
Do you get it? MONEY is an ILLUSION! Why? Because the gold standard upon which our money is supposed to be based has been eliminated. There's no more gold in Fort Knox. It's all GONE! Now, money really IS only paper!!! In the past, money was supposed to represent something of tangible value.
Now it's simply paper!
Taken one step further, many of us don't even use paper money any more! Why? Well, here's a scenario. Many places of employment directly deposit their employee's paychecks into the bank. Once the money is there, when bill time comes around, the person in question can write out a stack of checks to pay them. Plus, when they need gasoline they use a credit card; and groceries a debit card. If this person goes out for dinner on Friday night, they can charge the tab on their diner's card. But what about the tip? They simply scribble in the amount at the bottom of the check. So far, the person hasn't spent a single dollar bill. Plus, if you bring electronic banking into the picture, we've virtually eliminated the use for money.
And, God forbid, what happens when encoded microchips are implanted into the backs of our hand?
In essence, money has become nothing more than an illusion - an electronic figure or amount on a computer screen. That's it! As time goes on, we have an increasing tendency toward being sucked into this Wizard of Oz vortex of unreality. Think about it. Americans as a whole are carrying more personal debt than in any other time in history. Plus our government keeps going further and further into the hole, with no hope of ever crawling out. But we have less and less actual MONEY! We're being enslaved by the debt of electronic blips on a computer screen! And 70% of the banks that control this debt via the Federal Reserve exist in foreign countries! What in God's name is going on? As author William Bramley says, "The result of this whole system is MASSIVE debt at every level of society.
"
We're getting screwed in a sickening way, folks, and the people doing it are demented magician-priests that use the ILLUSION of money as their control device. And I hate to say it, but if we allow things to keep going as they are, the situation will only get worse. Our only hope ... ONLY HOPE ... is to immediately take drastic action and remedy this crime.

(to be continued)
www.victorthorn.com...

noitce if you go the website that it nol onger exists...

much love to you all..

namaste

If you really want to get to the bottom of this......look at who has been making the most money in the last 8 years, instead of blaming each other. I bet we will all see we are being played by both sides.