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Pearl Harbour No 'BOMBS'

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posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by RuneSpider
 


Huh? Did you mean to make that a reply to me? If you did...I apologize because I'm not following the context very well. If not, I understand, sometimes I "mis-click" things also.




posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by ZindoDoone
 


Ah, I see, those clever folks. Must be a pretty well paid compnay.
Mr.Moneypenny, sorry, must have hit a wrong button. That was supposed to go to SparkOfLife, fixed it.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 03:16 PM
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There were bombs dropped, but they did not penetrate the double-armor decking of the USS Arizona---as was the case with a few of the other sunken ships. I document that the ONI had preset bombs in the ships and after 13 minutes of attack, the USS Arizona was detonated. Nearby was the USS Solace, and on board was a Jesuit priest waiting to make a heroic saving of sailors.

For years no one was allowed to dive the wreck and when done it was discovered that no bomb went down the stack of the Arizona



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by SparkOfLife
There were bombs dropped, but they did not penetrate the double-armor decking of the USS Arizona---as was the case with a few of the other sunken ships. I document that the ONI had preset bombs in the ships and after 13 minutes of attack, the USS Arizona was detonated. Nearby was the USS Solace, and on board was a Jesuit priest waiting to make a heroic saving of sailors.

For years no one was allowed to dive the wreck and when done it was discovered that no bomb went down the stack of the Arizona


The first dives on the wreck were in 1942. It was confirmed that no bomb went down a stack. There were multiple penetrations of deck armor by armor piercing bombs. The last bomb penetrated a powder magazine before detonating, resulting the the huge blast in the famous film.

I, for one, would really like to see your documentation.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by Phage]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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Did the Japanese drop bombs and torpedos that sank the ships in Pearl Harbor? This is a point that no one can deny at all. The coverup from the American side would have to be huge and would have had to have involved the 1000's of Japanese sailors and aviators that were there as well.

Now the conspiracy angle we should be looking at is if FDR knew they are comming and allowed it to happen? Why were the pacific fleets carriers out to sea that morning? WHere was the air cover? etc etc etc.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 03:43 PM
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I live right by Pearl Harbor, Have been there many times to Pearl Harbor and watched the movie before goin out on the boat for the tour. Yes, the Japanese did drop bombs and also used their airplanes to blow up our ships, boats, and etc. My boyfriend is a plumber and i have a huge shell casing from the bombings that he found. Actually a lot of locals here have casings and such from that war.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by SparkOfLife
 


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Many, if not most, of the Japanese dive bombers were carrying not bombs, but converted large calibre armour piercing naval shells, which acted like plunging fire and punched right through the deck armour which was nothing near as thick as the belt armour along the sides of the ship. Those bombs would have gone through that armour like a hot knife through butter.

With all the investigations that have taken place over the past 65 plus years by many skilled historians and writers, not to mention the investigation into the fiasco shortly thereafter, Roberts Commission I believe, it seems that someone would have come up with something a bit more concrete than mere supposition...

US military intelligence knew something was up, they even had Hawaii as a possibility, but so was San Diego, the Philippines, Austrailia, and several other places. Unfortunately, Hawaii was well down on the list of targets. War warnings were sent, percautions such as they were, were taken...but all those precautions particularly on the part of the Army played right into the hands of the Japanese attackers. Lining up the airplanes in nice neat rows makes 'em easy to guard, but also make dandy targets for bombs and strafing...

Edit: The deck armour on the "Pennsylvania" class battleship, of which "Arizona" was one of two, was 4" in most places tapering to as little as two inches along the edge. Those converted shells would have had no difficulty in smashing right through.





As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 9/8/2008 by seagull]



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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Complete and UTTER BS. I guess the thousands of sailors that saw bombs comming down on them must be liars.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 04:40 PM
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Wow people are continuing to re write facts to back up there claims it amazes me sometimes. Need proof the Japanese bombed pearl harbor you can look at dives made on the Arizona you can actually see where the bomb pierced the deck platting. They didn't have missiles the most advanced weapon they had was called the long lance it was a torpedo and really quite amazing considering there current level of technology



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by SparkOfLife
I read in a number of different books along with a Eric Phelps lecture that during the Pearl Harbour attacks there were no Japanese bombs actually shot at the US ships. Most of the ships had planted explosives in them ? What do you people tinker ?

[edit on 8-9-2008 by SparkOfLife]


Since you asked for my opinion, here it is. The books you read and this "Eric Phelps", whoever he might be, are collectively full of enough boscat to fertilize an entire rose garden.

"No Japanese bombs actually shot at US ships" ? Technically correct, since bombs are dropped, not "shot". However, assuming that your revisionist sources actually meant "used on", and strictly in the spirit of 'deny ignorance', I direct your attention to this image:

Torpedo tracks

You can see a pair of white lines in the water from image center, down and to the right. Those are the tracks of torpedoes inbound toward Battleship Row. If I really felt like dignifying this crap with serious rebuttal, there are plenty of images from the second and third waves of the attack showing Japanese dive bombers in action, and strafing runs across the various airfields.

The only part of this ridiculous assertion that has any real connection to reality is the presence of explosives aboard the U.S. ships. Battleships typically carried several tons of explosives....around 100 rounds / gun for the main battery, with each round (for the Arizona's 14" guns) weighing between 1,400 and 1,500 lbs, plus a 425 lb propellant charge.

Gun data for the 14"/45

I would appreciate a list of the books that support this theory...I own a large macaw, and good cage liner is hard to come by. If I seem a bit angry here, it's because an uncle of mine died aboard the USS West Virginia that Sunday morning...and the idea that the current generation knows so little about such a historically significant event as to even entertain this idea is almost as offensive to me as the attack itself.



posted on Sep, 8 2008 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
Did the Japanese drop bombs and torpedos that sank the ships in Pearl Harbor? This is a point that no one can deny at all. The coverup from the American side would have to be huge and would have had to have involved the 1000's of Japanese sailors and aviators that were there as well.

Now the conspiracy angle we should be looking at is if FDR knew they are comming and allowed it to happen? Why were the pacific fleets carriers out to sea that morning? WHere was the air cover? etc etc etc.


There seems to be a widespread belief that because US cryptography experts had "broken" some of the Japanese codes, they had full and complete information on Japanese naval deployments and plans. The sad thing is that, as of late 1941, the USN could read about 30-40% of the IJN's encrypted traffic. Due to the volume of traffic and the size of the staff, there was a lag of weeks between intercepts and decryption. The cycle was improving over time, but at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, information was sketchy, to say the least. It was known that the Kido Butai was at sea, and that there was a high probability that war was imminent The problem (from the American side) was that the Japanese had too many targets to choose from, and Peal Harbor, while a *possible* target (the USN "Enemy" team had bombed Pearl during the 1939 Fleet Problem), was considered a less likely target than bases closer to Japan.

The carriers were at sea on various errands...IIRC, one was delivering aircraft, and at least two were working up in preparation for cruise, but I'm working from memory here. It wasn't uncommon at all for ships to be at sea...it would have seemed more like a conspiracy had all the carriers been 'home' when the Japanese arrived.

Air cover was suffering from 'peacetime-itis'. It was Sunday morning, which meant that a good many personnel were off-base, and a good many more were in *ahem* less than optimal condition. Even if sober ground crews and pilots had been available in larger numbers, preparing aircraft for combat isn't a simple case of "Jump in, start the motor, and go"...even the best of crews could easily take an hour to fuel, arm, and check an aircraft...and once the bombs were falling, the crews were looking for cover.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 02:18 AM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 


Like you said, learn your history, Missiles have been in use since dawn of gunpowder weapons in China. Though not as effective , they did the job they were meant to do. Next the poor person needs to know the difference between “ shot and dropped” and that the “Shot” torpedoes. Only three were reported but they were seen.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 03:52 AM
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Sorry if too off-topic, but I am very concerned about the trend of numerous threads of this sort.

Perhaps this is best left to an entirely new thread....if I could write one...but I see this as a question, from a younger generation of Internet users, more and more frequently they are finding a voice in various websites (including ATS) and more and more bad information is being spread.

It starts with a 'what if' question, and spirals/virals out of control....spreads infects, confuses.

Problem is, the original "what if" is based on a lack of understanding of A) technology, B) history and, C) common sense.

Not to slam a younger generation, but the advent of the Internet has led to this state of affairs, I think. It is promulgated by the inherent inability of having a face-to-face discussion about the issue....which would in 99% of the cases clear up the misunderstandings in 5 minutes, when I see pages and pages of arguments online....each arguing around each other, not realizing that sometimes they are basically saying the same thing!

As to Pearly Harbor, I recommend a nice rainy afternoon with a documentary DVD from the History Channel, or the Discovery Channel.

For the record: Japanese Zeros of that era had ONE bomb each. They also had machine guns built into the leading edges of both wings.

Other carrier-based airplanes would launch, with ONE torpedo, attached under the fuselage. AND, these guys left the carrier decks knowing it was a one-way mission. They had not enough fuel to return to the ships. So, as last resort, if not shot down first, they were guided missiles....it's called Kamikazee (Sp?)

Sorry to say, it sounds way too familiar, at this point in September, as another certain aniversary approaches.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by SparkOfLife



C'mon, just like we didn't blow up our own buildings ?





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[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link



[edit on 8-9-2008 by 12m8keall2c]



Are you serious? I suggest you watch the footage MUCH more carefully before you reach such ludicrous and disrespectful conclusions. You can clearly witness Torpedo drops and Bombs dropping in the Pearl Harbor footage. You obviously cannot argue that there was not a plethora of Video footage taken that ill-fated day, so as to provide clear and decisive evidence as to who the culprits were. Also, with such accusations you are slandering and labelling THOUSANDS of survivors as liars. Give me a break. Whomever started such a lie should have their mental state checked ASAP.



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


You probably have a point about the way internet discussions spiral out of control.

I have to respectfully disagree with a few of your points regarding the attack on Pearl Harbor, though. In December of 1941, the "Kamikaze" was almost as alien an idea to the pilots of the Kido Butai as it was to the Americans. The planes flying against Pearl Harbor were flying (at least in some cases) on the outer edge of effective range, but all had the ability to return to their ships with at least minimal fuel margins. Several were lost due to damaged fuel tanks (for some reason, the Japanese were slow to adopt the self-sealing fuel tanks favored by most of the other powers in World War II).

As for bomb loads:
The Mitsubishi A6M2 Type 0, Model 21 was the most common sub-type of "Zero" at Pearl Harbor. If equipped with bombs (not all were), the standard load was a pair of 60Kg bombs under the wings. What is often mistaken for a bomb is the large drop tank under the fuselage that was often kept aboard the aircraft until just before combat (to get as much fuel as possible from it) then jettisoned.

The Nakajima B5N2 ("Kate" to the USN) was the KB's multi-role attack aircraft. It was designed as a torpedo bomber, but could also do level bombing when needed. Each could carry a single 800kg torpedo (usually a Type 91), or 3x250Kg bombs, or 6x60Kg bombs.

The Aichi D3A ("Val") was the dedicated dive bomber. Payload was either a single 250Kg bomb under the fuselage, or a pair of 60Kg weapons under the wings.

Probably more info than you really wanted, but hey, what's life without a little overkill?



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by SparkOfLife
There were bombs dropped, but they did not penetrate the double-armor decking of the USS Arizona---as was the case with a few of the other sunken ships. I document that the ONI had preset bombs in the ships and after 13 minutes of attack, the USS Arizona was detonated. Nearby was the USS Solace, and on board was a Jesuit priest waiting to make a heroic saving of sailors.

For years no one was allowed to dive the wreck and when done it was discovered that no bomb went down the stack of the Arizona


Unlike you, I have actually been to Pearl Harbor in the first-person. I saw a piece of footage that day which is NOT attainable to the outside public (beyond Memorial Visitors), and it changed the lives of everyone who saw it. You can see the VERY moment that a bomb impacts, and blows apart the Arizona's deck, and it was NO set detonation. I know people who fought in that war, and lived it. You are nothing short of a slanderer, and someone who has nothing better to do than re-make your own twisted version history so you can feel "wanted" and "wise".



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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Yeah, I guess all of the Zeros were just over Hawaii for a Sunday Cruise down the block. Your ONI theory also does not take into account the destruction to the U.S. ARMY Aircraft, and Facilities. I guess in your account only U.S. Naval Ships were "detonated".



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by Brother Stormhammer
 


Absolutely, Brother...we needed that info! It was late, I was about to go to bed, and didn't have all of that spot-on information to hand.

Thanks for it, was a great review for us old guys, and good info for the young whipper-snappers out there!



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:39 AM
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It is ludicrous to think the japenese did not bomb pearl harbor.. However I believe we knew about the attack..And did nothing.. which is just as bad as bombing them ourselves..



posted on Sep, 9 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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The way history has been put down in the last few years I could imagine that it is likely that WWII was staged. My grandfather way lying!



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