Wounds of Tskhinvali - destruction caused by Georgia becomes clear.

undermind:

If you know what went on in Georgia for the last 4 years, you would remember that Georgia produced such "proof" of Russian aggression countless times, even before the war (mostly holes in the ground and metal remains of something). Much of that previous proof was faked or inconclusive according to even Western experts, and for some reason Georgia quickly destroyed the "proof" after photographing it.

I saw that picture you posted and several others with supposed remains of a theater ballistic missile engine. I am not saying that Russia didn't use cluster bombs - but Georgia's proof is sketchy. What leads me to think that Russia didn't use them - is that they simply didn't need to; it would be overkill. The proof from Gori is very unconvincing (despite the fact that the rocket parts look authentic), because there isn't any footage of actual destruction from explosions. Same here - we see a small rocket fragment and small hole somewhere in the field. Georgia likely has the missiles and parts to "recreate" a scene like that to make it look authentic.



Once again I am not saying it's false, but it should be taken with a grain of salt, as Georgia is known for faking evidence. Georgia speaks of terrible destruction rained down on it by Russian airforce. Where is proof of that? All I saw is a few burned out buildings and a lot of broken windows in or near a Georgian military garrison in Gori. But the footage I posted of Tskhinvalli clearly shows arial views of the devastation.


Why doesn't Georgia show arial devastation, especially in places where they claim to have been hit with cluster bombs? All we see is scrap metal and holes in the ground.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by maloy]

It definitely gets confusing when both Russia and Georgia use the same ordinance,fighters,and armor,there is even cases of Russian's stealing Georgian Uniforms and weapons(US and Russian make)Add the unruly rebels to the mix ,the media censorship and propaganda spin,and the truth becomes the proverbial needle in a haystack!


[edit on 5-9-2008 by all2human]

reply to post by all2human


Yeah the S Ossetian fighters were really the wild card here. They are the ones who had some confrontations with Western journalists and looted empty Georgian villages - and were referenced innitially as Russians by the Western media. Perhaps they even killed some Georgian civilians - but I haven't heard any actual cases. I don't think there is any proof of Russian troops taking part in any civilian looting. The only equipment Russian troops took with them is Georgian army equipment that was left behind.

The problem is that no one tried to stop the S Ossetians. Because of the chaos - the S Ossetian militia's command structure was disorganized and had no control over the fighters. Russians turned a blind eye on this. Georgians were too busy evacuating. For a period of about a week the region of Georgia bordering S Ossetia was practically lawless. Russian troops were even reported to have exchanged gunfire and possible killed some unidentified looters, who might have been S Ossetians or Georgians, or God knows who.


The issue of identifying who is who is further exacerbated by the fact that neither Russia, nor S Ossetian militia, nor Georgia has one standard military uniform or equipment. In Russia many soldiers are free to pick out their own uniform (there are many varying camo patterns for example). Same goes for S Ossetians. Russian armor of the 58th army is also largely unmarked by any special insignia, and the troops are free to "decorate" it to their own liking. And then add the ragtag Chechen-Federal battalions of Zapad and Vostok (also part of Russian army) to the mess.

Georgian troops are a little easier to identify - at least it was untill Russians and S Ossetians have taken Georgian uniforms from abandoned bases. At that point I would be surprised if each sides' soldiers themselves could identify friend from foe.



As for the missiles and missile fragments - there is no way to tell them apart Russian or Georgian from pictures. Georgia retains some of this ammunition from the Soviet Era. Staging these pictures would not be a difficult task.

I recall there was one case of a shot-down Su-25 in this war. The wreckage of the plane caught on fire and the new insignia paint burned off. There were pictures showing charred Soviet markings on the plane (the original paint), and even military afficianados on a forum were not able to identify to which side the plane belonged. There are still rumors that there were more Russian and Georgian planes shot down than confirmed by the two sides - but identification proved impossible. Surely the military knows of the loses - but aren't disclosing them.

Also you may remember pictures of destroyed tanks on the streets of Tskhnvali. Various sources refer to them as either Georgian or Russian tanks. It hasn't been cleared up.