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Wounds of Tskhinvali - destruction caused by Georgia becomes clear.

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posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 07:33 PM
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Virtually everyone is now aware of the recent war in S Ossetia, Georgia. Many people here have began expressing doubt about whether Georgia is really to blame for starting the war, and whether Georgian military really attacked the civilian population of S Ossetia.


This three-part video documentary on the war Wounds of Tskhinvali, includes in-depth details on the military actions and strategies that took place. Also includes a lot of war footage. So far this is the best video on the war I have seen yet and is a good perspective on what actually happened in S Ossetian capital. This is only the first portion of a longer documentary that is still being compiled.


This video helps prove that U.S. ally Georgia staged a massive artillery attack on a Civilian city of Tskhinvali on August 7th, and began a bloody invasion of the separatist Republic. The Western revisionists try and paint Russia as the aggressor - Russian military did not get involved untill after Tskhinvali was heavily bombed.



Video is in Russian but with English subtitles.


WARNING - SOME GRAPHICAL CONTENT








[edit on 27-8-2008 by maloy]




posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 07:49 PM
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Here are some summaries of innitial military operations from the video:


Night of August the 7th:

Georgia starts the war by innitiating a massive carpet artillery barrage against the S Ossetian city of Tskhinvali.

No warning is given by Georgia of the attack. The Georgian operation is internally called "Clean Field".

Many civilians casualties were avoided thanks to reinforced bunkers which most S. Ossetians have in their basements since the 1992 war.


August 8th:

Georgian army quickly advances towards the city in a pincer movements, attacking from several sides.

Georgia cuts off the roads leading to the city and starts storming the surrounding villages.

A 15,000 strong Georgian army moves into Tskhinvali. Tanks on the outskirts of the city fire directly at apartment buildings.

(keep in mind that U.S. media is not reporting any news yet about the military actions of Georgia)

Russian 58th army moves in, at first outnumbered by Georgians. Georgian military attacks the Russian contingent, including peacekeepers from artillery and airstrikes.

Civilians attempt to hide at Russian peacekeeping headquarters, but are also shelled there.


August 9th:

Ossetians, unable to escape or to give the dead proper burial, are forced to bury the dead in their backyards. The true number of dead cannot be known.

Georgian army blocks all exits from the city for civilians. There are reports of Georgian convoy firing at civilians on the streets.

Ossetians in the city offered little resistance - mostly from the local militia and police forces. The Ossetian army wasn't even based inside the city.

The Georgian attacks went nonestop for the first 3 days. They cleared the area with carpet bombing, then moved in the armor, then cleared the area further up. If they were repelled innitially they shelled the cities and villages again and again untill everything was clear. The focus was on speed (blitzkrieg), and not on precision.

By this time much of the city is literally leveled. All of the main infrastructure buildings were hit directly - schools, hospitals, administrative and community buildings, senior homes, churches.




Most people are not aware of these first days - only of later "fearmongering" of Russia invading Georgia. Let there be no doubt - Georgia started the war for which Russia is blamed. Saakashvili will never face justice thanks to his American supporters.


Why isn't CNN or BBC showing this? The footage is clearly available and not manipulated. Why is Westernern media only showing one side of the war and footage of Georgian suffering. You are witnessing a brainwashing campaign that is meant to hide the criminal actions of a U.S. puppet state.


[edit on 27-8-2008 by maloy]



posted on Aug, 27 2008 @ 11:54 PM
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Alright, let's see if we can agree on a few things.

The Soviet Union invaded Georgia on February 14, 1921.


The former Soviet Union's attitude towards Georgia was driven by Stalin who considered physical elimination (murder) as a tool of communist revolution.


Within three years of the invasion a socialistic Georgian anti-bolshevik resistance developed which evolved into a major rebellion in August 1924.

From August 29 to September 5, 1924, the Soviet security officer in Georgia, Lavrentiy Beria, working in close collaboration with Stalin, executed 12,578 people, with over 20,000 exiled to Siberia.

From that time, no major overt attempt was made to challenge Soviet authority in the country until a new generation of anti-Soviet movements emerged in the late 1970s.

Stéphane Courtois, The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, Harvard University Press, 1999, hardcover, 858 pages, ISBN 0-674-07608-7

---------------------------------------------------------

During the Soviet era, Soviet Russians migrated to Georgia where they formed their own ethnic enclaves which were at the same time centres of soviet communist power. Examples: Abkhazia, South Ossetia

The disintegration of the USSR leaves many of these formerly ruling elite populations as sources of conflict.

Constant war with Georgia has led to the Autonomous South Ossetian Russians government becoming increasingly corrupt and relying on organised crime, including people, drugs and weapons trafficking and counterfieting as a source of revenue.

What we have here is an attempt by Georgia – with imagined direct/indirect support from the US, Israel – to blitzkrieg South Ossetia, bringing an end to a conflict that has been going for many years, basically using ethnic cleansing measures.

On a tactical level, initially, the Georgians succeeded. They overwhelmed the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, killing many civilians and destroying non-military targets – schools, hospitals, universities.

In strategic terms....

Despite the commando training, weapons from Israel and Georgian heavy involvement in the occupation of Iraq, to the rest of the world it looked like the act of little men with an inflated view of themselves.

The olympics were on, which made it look opportunistic in the extreme.

The US didn't want a big confrontation with Russia during anti-nuke negotiations/confrontations with Iran.

Russia ordered 150 tanks, APCs, self proprlled howitsers and MLRSs of its 58th Army into Ossetia, reclaimed Tskhinvali and the rest of South Oseetia. There is also evidence that Russia used cluster bombs.



Why isn't CNN or BBC showing this? The footage is clearly available and not manipulated. Why is Westernern media only showing one side of the war and footage of Georgian suffering.


Because there are two sides and foreign correspondents are expensive.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by undermind
The former Soviet Union's attitude towards Georgia was driven by Stalin who considered physical elimination (murder) as a tool of communist revolution.


Stalin was Georgian, and had the very same attitude towards ruling Russia. Russia was no better off than Georgia or anyone else under Stalin.



Originally posted by undermind
From August 29 to September 5, 1924, the Soviet security officer in Georgia, Lavrentiy Beria, working in close collaboration with Stalin, executed 12,578 people, with over 20,000 exiled to Siberia.


Beria killed millions of people in his career - Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus - everyone. What point are you trying to prove? That the two most notorious leaders of the Soviet Union were Georgian?



Originally posted by undermind
During the Soviet era, Soviet Russians migrated to Georgia where they formed their own ethnic enclaves which were at the same time centres of soviet communist power. Examples: Abkhazia, South Ossetia


False. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not populated by Russian - they are populated and always were populated by local Caucasus ethnicities: Abkhazians and Ossetins. There are nearly no ethnical Russians in Georgia or the breakaway regions.

Throughout history the Abkhaz and Ossetians lingered between Georgia and the Russian empire.



Originally posted by undermind
The disintegration of the USSR leaves many of these formerly ruling elite populations as sources of conflict.


False. Abkhaz and Ossetians did not rule anybody. Throughout the Soviet Era Georgian SSR was ruled by ethnical Georgians. Abkhazia and S Ossetia had a minority autonomy status.



Originally posted by undermind
Constant war with Georgia has led to the Autonomous South Ossetian Russians government becoming increasingly corrupt and relying on organised crime, including people, drugs and weapons trafficking and counterfieting as a source of revenue.


Proof of this? Corrupt yes (much like all other breakaway republics around the world, but people and drug trafficking? S Ossetia and Abkhazia have some industries and an economy based on trade with Russia.



Originally posted by undermind
What we have here is an attempt by Georgia – with imagined direct/indirect support from the US, Israel – to blitzkrieg South Ossetia, bringing an end to a conflict that has been going for many years, basically using ethnic cleansing measures.


Yes we do. It was clear after the 1992 war that S Ossetians want absolutely nothing to do with Georgia - and would refuse to live in the same country with them. If Serbia was punished for the same actions in Kosovo, why is Georgia allowed to get away with them?



Originally posted by undermind
Russia ordered 150 tanks, APCs, self proprlled howitsers and MLRSs of its 58th Army into Ossetia, reclaimed Tskhinvali and the rest of South Oseetia.


Russia intervened because of the pleas by S Ossetian population. Russian attacks on largely evacuated Georgian cities pale in comparison to the innitial Georgian attack on Tskhinvali.

If you recall NATO bombed Belgarade too in 1998 - as a retaliation for Serbia's action in breakaway Kosovo.



Originally posted by undermind
Because there are two sides and foreign correspondents are expensive.


Sounds like a good excuse for the "free press".



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by undermind
From August 29 to September 5, 1924, the Soviet security officer in Georgia, Lavrentiy Beria, working in close collaboration with Stalin, executed 12,578 people, with over 20,000 exiled to Siberia.


Maloy:
Beria killed millions of people in his career - Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus - everyone. What point are you trying to prove? That the two most notorious leaders of the Soviet Union were Georgian?


Not at all. I'm providing historical background of Russian actions in Georgia, which have been and continue to be premised on Stalin's notions.



Originally posted by undermind
During the Soviet era, Soviet Russians migrated to Georgia where they formed their own ethnic enclaves which were at the same time centres of soviet communist power. Examples: Abkhazia, South Ossetia

Maloy:
False. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not populated by Russian - they are populated and always were populated by local Caucasus ethnicities: Abkhazians and Ossetins. There are nearly no ethnical Russians in Georgia or the breakaway regions.


On the contrary, South Ossetia has 70% Russian citizenship.

In the 1950s peak, Russians made up over 20% of the population of Abkhazia.

Soviet Internal Migration page 27



Originally posted by undermind
The disintegration of the USSR leaves many of these formerly ruling elite populations as sources of conflict.


Maloy:
False.


They were given special autonomy as an autonomous oblast, as part of Stalin's divide and rule tactics.


Originally posted by undermind
Constant war with Georgia has led to the Autonomous South Ossetian Russians government becoming increasingly corrupt and relying on organised crime, including people, drugs and weapons trafficking and counterfieting as a source of revenue.


Maloy:
Proof of this?





E. POLITICAL-ECONOMIC CAUSES OF
CONFLICT
The frozen nature of the conflict had provided a
fertile ground for development of illegal business --
smuggling, drug trafficking, kidnapping and arms
trading
. The Transcaucasian highway connecting
Georgia to Russia goes through South Ossetia and
allegedly serves as a key smuggling route.98 Due to
the unresolved status of South Ossetia, neither
Georgia nor South Ossetia could agree on the
establishment of a system of customs



from this pdf.International Crisis Group (2004-11-26). "Georgia: Avoiding War in South Ossetia / Report



During this time there was an absence of central control over the region.[5] The Ergneti market on the outskirts of Tskhinvali was a large trade hub through which smuggling lost Georgia significant revenue.[5] This trade increased support for the breakaway Kokoity regime.[5] The unresolved conflict encouraged development of such illegal activities as kidnapping, drug-trafficking and arms trading.[6]




In late 2006, alarge international counterfeiting operation originating from South Ossetia was revealed by U.S. Secret Service and Georgian police.

South Ossetia was given special autonomous status by Stalin to create ongoing conflict in Georgia, as a divide and rule tactical response to their original military opposition to Soviet takeover, their rebellion in 1924 after takeover, and their widespread support for the Menshevik socialists.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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Cluster bombs are a banned weapon.Also Russia launched internet cyber attacks at least a month before the invasion against the internet structure of a sovereign nation.Id consider that an act of war on Russia's part.Russia continues to be belligerent and has violated the cease-fire by not pulling out of Georgia and altering the deal.I told you they cant be trusted at all.Now puny Putin blames us?What a crackpot.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by undermind
Not at all. I'm providing historical background of Russian actions in Georgia, which have been and continue to be premised on Stalin's notions.


Don't confuse Russia and Soviet Union. And how do actions "continue" to be premised on Stalin's notions?



Originally posted by undermind
On the contrary, South Ossetia has 70% Russian citizenship.


Ethnicity and citizenship are two different concepts - especially in an ethnically diverse country like Russia. About 90% of people living in S. Ossetia are of Ossetian ethnicity - and have populated the area throughout history.

They were granted Russian citizenship only in the 90's - and it has nothing to do with their ethnicity. Right after the break-up of the Soviet Union Russia granted citizenship to many in CIS who wanted it, including some Georgians.


Originally posted by undermind
In the 1950s peak, Russians made up over 20% of the population of Abkhazia.



That was in the 1950's, and 20% is not that much - far lower in fact than the percentage of Russians in Ukraine or the Baltics.




Originally posted by undermind
They were given special autonomy as an autonomous oblast, as part of Stalin's divide and rule tactics.


Yes but they didn't rule over Georgia - just their own small enclave. And the autonomous oblast was still overseen by the Georgian SSR which was run by Georgian communists.



Originally posted by undermind
E. POLITICAL-ECONOMIC CAUSES OF
CONFLICT
The frozen nature of the conflict had provided a
fertile ground for development of illegal business --
smuggling, drug trafficking, kidnapping and arms
trading
. The Transcaucasian highway connecting
Georgia to Russia goes through South Ossetia and
allegedly serves as a key smuggling route.98 Due to
the unresolved status of South Ossetia, neither
Georgia nor South Ossetia could agree on the
establishment of a system of customs
...



What they write is partially true. However much of similar activity takes place in Georgia and Azerbijan as well. Despite being illegal there, the authorities ignore it for the most part. The entire Caucasus region of Russia bordering Georgia and Azerbaijan on the south has seen smuggling and drug trade (including Chechnya and Dagestan). Thus Ossetia and Abkhazia are not much different from the surrounding region.


There is of course another factor - as your sources point out there is no established customs system between Georgia and S Ossetia. That is true. In addition to this, the border between S Ossetia and Russia is largely uncontrolled as well - and this creates potential smuggling problems. However don't forget that much of Ossetia was overseen by both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers. I do not know whether the peacekeepers fought this illegal activity - but their presence shows that the region wasn't really lawless.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Justice11
Cluster bombs are a banned weapon.


There is no concrete proof that Russia used any cluster bombs.



Originally posted by Justice11
Also Russia launched internet cyber attacks at least a month before the invasion against the internet structure of a sovereign nation.


That's not illegal according to international law. It was Russian amateur hackers that launched the "attacks" - not the Russian government.



Originally posted by Justice11
Id consider that an act of war on Russia's part.


Lets see:

Launching a cyber attack againt some websites

or

Launching a carpet artillery attack using GRAD rocket launchers against a civilian city during a declared ceasefire like Georgia had - leveling much of the infrastructure and killing many civilians


Which of the two is more like an act of war rather than a prank?




Originally posted by Justice11
Russia continues to be belligerent and has violated the cease-fire by not pulling out of Georgia and altering the deal.


Actually it did not violate any ceasefire. Go find the signed accord and read the principal conditions in it. One of the conditions entitles Russia to set-up a safety buffer zone outside of S Ossetia borders - to prevent future attacks. Another condition says that Russia must leave undisputed Georgian territory (except for the buffer zone), but doesn't say when Russia must finish withdrawal.

This agreement was signed by both sides. There is no legal case against Russia here.



Originally posted by Justice11
I told you they cant be trusted at all.


And who can be trusted? Can U.S. be trusted? Can Saakashvili be trusted?



Originally posted by Justice11
Now puny Putin blames us?What a crackpot.


Well U.S. and Europe is blaming him. So everyone's a crackpot.



posted on Aug, 28 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


Really interesting history lesson here. I had no idea that the the notorious leaders of USSR were actually Georgian. And that point alone changes history, as Georgia was directly linked to Zionists and here I'm not even going to talk about Jewish people in any way other than as us, sheeps and slaves to those old men running the world and banks. Jews, Christians, Muslims, and everyone else are all fodder to the Zionists, an evil bloodsucking geopolitical athiestic/luciferian group that has created every war, and now I am believing, most of the fascist states that exist now, and historically. Wow. Talk about hypocrisy! Virtually, the Rothschild's and Rockefeller's created the whole fascist Zionist USSR, and then we engaged in a cold war with it for ages.
Russia went in because of the racial cleansing and genocide that was occurring. It had no choice.



posted on Sep, 2 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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Great Videos Maloy.

It's very sad and hard for me to watch, knowing that the U.S. funded, supported, and manipulated this entire situation. It makes me so mad and angry. I couldn't stand watching the news report this event and blaming Russia. I don't know what else to say, that whole situation makes me so upset...

I applaud you for spreading the truth and doing much work to get out this information on this forum. SO are the people who should have gotten all of those supplies we sent over, not Georgia.



posted on Sep, 3 2008 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by undermind
...The former Soviet Union's attitude towards Georgia was driven by Stalin who considered physical elimination (murder) as a tool of communist revolution. ...


And where, praytell, was Stalin born?



posted on Sep, 3 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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I have been comfortably on the fence on this matter,
because there has been a lot of confusion over the truth to this war:

*CAUTION--it is very graphic and gut wrenching*


www.youtube.com...
YouTube -
War is truly hell!! peace









[edit on 3-9-2008 by all2human]



posted on Sep, 3 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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Saakashvili is a madman, Russia loves dramatic propaganda films. 1-1

But Maloy, I think this thread is a great opportunity to provide some evidence of the genocide Russia accuses Georgia of.

You see, shelling a city doesn't make it a genocide. You are always comparing this situation with Serbia... please provide us some evidence of the mass graves, concentration camps, etc.

Thanks.



posted on Sep, 3 2008 @ 08:03 PM
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It is not a genocide, and I never said it is. But that is only because Georgia had no time to carry out ethnic cleansing operations, which they likely had planned. Had Russia not entered the war, Georgia would have started to clean the area of separatists - and in a place like S. Ossetia you simply can't tell the rebels from civilians much of the time.

Judging by how Georgia innitiated its attack on S. Ossetia - with complete disregard for civilians, I would wager that their "clean up" operation would have been just as blunt.

And what the hell do mass graves tell you? That somebody had time to gather the dead bodies and throw them in a ditch? This documentary points out that many of the dead were buried in their backyards by surviving family members. By that time Georgian military was too preoccupied with the advancing Russians to dig mass graves.



So Russia very likely prevented an actual genocide here. But the point is not the genocide - it is that this was a senseless and ruthless attack on innocent civilians in the midst of a ceasefire negotiations.

Do you know what Grad is? It's an equivalent of carpet bombing - there is no precision to speak of. Grad's original intention is to kill off infantry and destroy infrastructure in a large scale area. There was no infantry in Tskhinvalli - and the only infrastructure is civilian.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by maloy
It is not a genocide, and I never said it is. But that is only because Georgia had no time to carry out ethnic cleansing operations, which they likely had planned.


It doesn't matter whether you have said this or not. The Russian regime said Georgian troops committed a genocide. That's a very strong claim they have so far failed to back up with evidence. It doesn't surprise me that Russian leaders do not mention the word 'genocide' anymore these days. Oh... and assuming they would have carried out ethnic cleansing if.... doesn't impress me much. Let's stick with factual information.



Originally posted by maloy
Had Russia not entered the war, Georgia would have started to clean the area of separatists - and in a place like S. Ossetia you simply can't tell the rebels from civilians much of the time.


Like Russia did in Chechnya you mean?



Originally posted by maloy
And what the hell do mass graves tell you?


You see, I am not the one claiming a genocide occurred in Georgia. When Serbia attacked former Yugoslavian countries real evidence was available of concentration camps alike those in World War II and mass graves of killed Muslim people.

It's fine with me if Russia wants to compare all their acts to NATO's acts against Serbia, but so far no evidence exists Georgia committed a genocide whereas Serbia did commit genocide in the years before the NATO attack took place.




Originally posted by maloy
So Russia very likely prevented an actual genocide here. But the point is not the genocide - it is that this was a senseless and ruthless attack on innocent civilians in the midst of a ceasefire negotiations.


Again, assumptions don't bring us anywere. The point is very much genocide. If a genocide has actually taken place, Russia has rightfully intervened. The general opinion of many countries would have been much different then it is now. In reality, Russia just wanted to punish Georgia and waited for the right moment. Seriously Maloy, you cannot justify Russia's actions in Chechnya while condemning Georgian actions in S.O..


Originally posted by maloy
Do you know what Grad is? It's an equivalent of carpet bombing - there is no precision to speak of. Grad's original intention is to kill off infantry and destroy infrastructure in a large scale area. There was no infantry in Tskhinvalli - and the only infrastructure is civilian.


Which is something terrible and justifiable, however, that doesn't give Russia the right to occupy Georgian territory. Particularly since Russia doesn't really have a good name when it comes to ''peacekeeping'' Perhaps you should look back how Russian soldiers ''dealt'' with the rebels in Chechnya.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by undermind
Not at all. I'm providing historical background of Russian actions in Georgia, which have been and continue to be premised on Stalin's notions.


You are wrong ... flat out wrong ... there is a completely different driving philosophy behind the Russians now. You make your argument like those peon political hacks at CIA. If you did your research you would find that these Georgian actions are part of the grand oil plan dating back before the end of the USSR because that is how long the plans have been laid to suck all the petroleum resources from those areas so you can drive your friggen Hummer to McDonalds.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
It doesn't matter whether you have said this or not. The Russian regime said Georgian troops committed a genocide.


That language was obviously Russian propaganda. But genocide is a rather loose term than can be applied left and right these days to achieve political ends anyway.



Originally posted by Mdv2
That's a very strong claim they have so far failed to back up with evidence.


It was more to build the motivation for war among Russians. Nothing new.



Originally posted by Mdv2
It doesn't surprise me that Russian leaders do not mention the word 'genocide' anymore these days. Oh... and assuming they would have carried out ethnic cleansing if.... doesn't impress me much. Let's stick with factual information.


Factual information? Well people here are all yelling on top of their lungs that "Russia invaded Georgia", that Russia wanted to get its hands on the pipeline, and that Russia is aggressive towards its neighbors and threatens much of Europe. Where is the factual information in that? Speculation builds more speculation. So I counter with my own speculation.




Originally posted by maloy
Like Russia did in Chechnya you mean?


Yep. Don't think that I will defend Russia's actions in Chechnya. There was no glory or point in that war.



Originally posted by maloy
You see, I am not the one claiming a genocide occurred in Georgia. When Serbia attacked former Yugoslavian countries real evidence was available of concentration camps alike those in World War II and mass graves of killed Muslim people.


Yet there is also proof that some "evidence" was faked by Albanians. And the West closed its eyes on the similar crimes committed against Serbs. But this is not about Serbia.

In another thread I did post a Russian analysis report, which stated that on a legal basis Russia indeed cannot build a case against Georgia in the Hague Tribunal. Saakashvili didn't make the mistakes that Milosevich and his generals made. But that doen't mean his actions were right.



Originally posted by maloy
It's fine with me if Russia wants to compare all their acts to NATO's acts against Serbia, but so far no evidence exists Georgia committed a genocide whereas Serbia did commit genocide in the years before the NATO attack took place.


Yeah you are correct, and as i said - Russia is not likely to be able to build any legal case against Georgia. That is where the comparison falls short when comparing Russia's actions to NATO's in Serbia.




Originally posted by maloy
Again, assumptions don't bring us anywere. The point is very much genocide. If a genocide has actually taken place, Russia has rightfully intervened.


At this point Russia doesn't give a hoot whether the West views its intervention as rightful or not. It intervened because it saw a need for it - and the West can't do a thing about it.

Now remember that Russia has another excuse to intervene - it was a sanctioned peacekeeper in S Ossetia. Once Georgia started the war, Russia had a right to force an end to fighting as a peacekeeper. And that is the story Russia stuck to, that this was a peacekeeping mission.

So Russia doesn't have to build a genocide case against Georgia. It is enough for Russia to prove that Georgia started the military operation.




Originally posted by maloy
The general opinion of many countries would have been much different
then it is now.


Who cares about general opinion. General opinion is but a political tool - build by the media, which no one can honestly say is actually "free and unbiased". Plus general opnions are changed as fast as they are made. Today Russia is the bad evil guy. Tomorrow it's Iran. Then Israel. Then U.S. again. Don't go digging into opinions too much.



Originally posted by maloy
In reality, Russia just wanted to punish Georgia and waited for the right moment.


Sure an intervention had its benefits for Russia - no one is denying this.



Originally posted by maloy
Seriously Maloy, you cannot justify Russia's actions in Chechnya while condemning Georgian actions in S.O.


I do not justify Russia's actions in Chechnya. I am a major critic of how Russia conducted the War in Chechnya - for which I blame the oligarchs and the military commanders. But Chechnya was a different war, with different circumstances, at a different time, by a different leader. Russia is certainly hypocritical to a point.

But you cannot justify Saakashvili's action by saying "Russia did it too once". Russia was wrong in 1994, and Saakashvili is wrong now.




Originally posted by maloy
Which is something terrible and justifiable, however, that doesn't give Russia the right to occupy Georgian territory.


Again back to "occupation". What territory are you referring to? I agree - Russia shouldn't occupy nondisputed Georgia, like Tbilisi, or Gori, or Poti. But in the breakaway regions Russia is sanctioned as a peacekeeper.




Originally posted by maloy
Particularly since Russia doesn't really have a good name when it comes to ''peacekeeping'' Perhaps you should look back how Russian soldiers ''dealt'' with the rebels in Chechnya.


What does Chechnya have to do with peacekeeping? And who is a good peacekeeper? The U.S. peacekeepers in Kosovo? Almost all peacekeeping missions have an agenda. UN peacekeepers are no better than Russian peacekeepers. And everyone has a black spot in their past if you go digging.

Both Russia and U.S. are hypocritical in this conflict. Both are wrong to a degree. But the main culprit is Saakashvili, and the victims are South Ossetian civilians. The rest is politics.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by maloy

There is no concrete proof that Russia used any cluster bombs.





Looks like an RBK-250 Russian cluster weapon to me.

Georgia used CW (M85) too, but they're not denying it like the Russians are.


[edit on 4-9-2008 by undermind]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop]Originally posted by undermind
Not at all. I'm providing historical background of Russian actions in Georgia, which have been and continue to be premised on Stalin's notions.

You are wrong ... flat out wrong ... there is a completely different driving philosophy behind the Russians now. You make your argument like those peon political hacks at CIA.


I'd like to see those arguments written by CIA analysts, that'd be great. You could load them into the ATS documents section and start a thread... but you don't have them... oh well...



If you did your research you would find that these Georgian actions are part of the grand oil plan dating back before the end of the USSR because that is how long the plans have been laid to suck all the petroleum resources from those areas so you can drive your friggen Hummer to McDonalds.


err... ok...


..."research"... I haven't done said research....grand oil plan... before end of USSR... plans laid long before to suck petroleum resources ... somethun somethun somethun bout curse on environmentally inefficient cars and hamburgers... no links...just take word ...

GOT IT!





[edit on 4-9-2008 by undermind]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Originally posted by undermind
...The former Soviet Union's attitude towards Georgia was driven by Stalin who considered physical elimination (murder) as a tool of communist revolution. ...


And where, praytell, was Stalin born?



Nah I'm just replying because you use the word "praytell" which should be an offense drawing 6-8 hard in most states and the District of Columbia.

His father was Ossetian, his mother Georgian. He himself became the most Russian of Russians, even writing a little book on Russian linguistics.





[edit on 4-9-2008 by undermind]



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