A Problem With Telepathy: It can't work most of the time

Gazork - If you read a little closer you'd notice that I'm saying that telepathy is possible, but requries a third agent for interpertation.

Let me classify your phenomena, so that I may put my theory back to together

1. I constantly pick up the phone to call someone, sometimes even someone I haven't talked to in ages, just as they are calling me...

-- simple precognication. No telepathy involved here.

2. If my wife feels pain, I do too, no matter where she is, no matter where I am. I likewise know when there is trouble with close family members, or even close friends. I simply sense something is wrong, etc., just to call and find out they're in the hospital or something.

-- Super Empathy. Simple. Empathy is "easy" because we're able to detect base feelings naturally. Reading thoughts is an entirely different matter.

3. I've seen flashes that have helped me avoid accidents. Granted, that's precognition,

-- You answered yourself.

4. How about twins who finish each other's sentences? Sure, they may think similarly, but similar and identical are really too weird...

-- Empathy combined with living together for amost all of their lifetime (the formative years). I'm assuming that twins have a near identical brain structure. That coupled with very similar experiences and "modelling" the other twin (super empathy?) would yeild telepathic-like results.

I suspect something like this is as far as humans can go, naturally. Note how it's an extreme case: Twins, living together all their life, pratically identical brains and expreriences. Anything beyond that requires outside intervention. That's my thesis

EDIT - all this being said, I was able to "detect" when my dad was in the area. It was like something clicked and I started looking for him because I knew he was nearby.

[Edited on 15-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

Interesting theory although there is a problem with your logic.
How do you know that the thought receiver is not capable of receiving thoughts in whatever form they come to him/her?

Case in point.

when testing my skills with various people I have had some people where a word pops up in my head and I have had images pop up as well.. in some cases it is just an idea... no word or single image but a combination thereof that is difficult to explain.

Now when I send a thought or suggestion to someone I use both the word and the image to them.

I think have an ability to protect themselves from suggestions if they are aware that an effort is being made, however... if they have no clue to be on guard the suggestion is almost always effective.

"How do you know that the thought receiver is not capable of receiving thoughts in whatever form they come to him/her? "

Because that would be to hard.

It's hard to formulate just how many variables are involved, but there are almost an infinite number.

So, if the thought receiver were capable of receiving thought in whatever form they came in, well, they would have to effectively stimulate another mind (as an interpreter) in order to read the other thoughts. The reason for this is that only by stimulating another mind would you be able to understand the thoughts coming out of that head.

Therefore, I think its more likely that a third spiritual agent does this, instead of the human mind spontaneously creating a stimulation of another mind to read thoughts.

Originally posted by ktprktpr
"How do you know that the thought receiver is not capable of receiving thoughts in whatever form they come to him/her? "

Because that would be to hard.

I know because that is how it is for me.
I know from personal experience.
Telepathy is not easy.. far from it.... but it is real!

Maybe the point I'm making is to subtle. I'm not contesting whether telepathy is real or not. I don't really care. What I'm bringing up is, if it's real, how it can be carried out.

I have shown that there are to many factors to consider when dechipering thought. From that I conclude that an outside agent must be involved.

In your case, it is imopssible to introspect enough to say what's going on. There have been many experiments detailing how incorrect introspection can be.

It's better to approach things like this from a more rigiorous standpoint and look at the matter of the situation, and then draw your own conclusions, as I have laid out.

[Edited on 16-3-2004 by ktprktpr]

i like this topic... its interesting knowing what ppl think. i have so much to say on this issue but i dont really know where to start so i'll say that from experiences i really do believe that some ppl have gifts or abilities but i dont know about those gypsies with crystal balls n cards even though my 40yr olf half sis claims to be a white witch n does that sorta thing for big parties n events... anyone had any really really telepathic experiences?

All you have to remember is that certain people are able to think in a very wide spectrum, an thats the key, to have a large databank of info an thinking processes so that when others thoughts enter yer thoughts yer able to co mingle the ideas an seperate them in yer mind an come out with 2 different thoughts at once, its all a matter of thought an brain control, SELF DISCIPLINE. plan an simple anyone can teach themselves to think in a large spectrum, think of the color spectrum , thoughts work along the same way, as in basicly we have certain thought processes like already mentioned, then understand them an how they branch out an you can practice an be very good at seprated thinking.

I believe, what ktprktpr and myself are trying to prove is being misunderstood slightly.

Let's assume that telepathy is a real skill or talent. As non-telepaths, we're attempting to understand how telepaths interpret the thoughts of people with different cognitive processes. Remove the emotional equation entirely for this discussion, we're not interested in how people can pick-up or interpret another's emotions.

This isn't a scientific experiment by any means but let's try this one for size. Factor in that each thought a person has is relative to their life and experiences. If you are a telepath and you are tying to interpret what a person wants for lunch, how does this work?

With a primarly verbal thinker it seems like it would be relatively easy to understand that they want a ham sandwich, on white bread, with lettuce and tomato. That's pretty specific, not much room for interpretation.

But with a visual thinker or someone that mixes thinking styles, how does it work? I can picture a tuna sandwich in my mind but how I picture that is entirely different from how ktprktpr would envision a tuna sandwich. Our personal tastes would be different, the types of bread, how much mayo goes into the tuna, if eggs were mixed in the tuna, those are just some of the details that would change from person to person on just the sandwich alone. Not to mention, what other mental associations you may have with a tuna sandwich; do you picture the sandwich sitting there by itself? or do you see a pickle on the side? a drink? or rather than visualizing that you want a coke with your sandwich, do you verbalize, "I want a coke with that"?

I don't believe telepaths can interpret thoughts that distinctly. My opinion is that at best a telepath would be able to say this person wants a sandwich because over time a collective archtype of a sandwich has developed in the human mind.

But then you run into the problem of how does this work with people with mental illnesses or that have different associations for particular objects? For some, visualising a book is just a book. But for others, a book they visualize might represent a missed chance to get poetry published. Or it could have multiple meanings. Without taking in a person's emotions, i.e. their distress over not getting something personal published, how can you can interpret these individual thoughts?

Our minds are complex places. I have no doubt telepathy is real, but I don't believe telepaths can interpret thoughts with any deal of specificity without a mix of emotions, as well as visual and verbal cues.

[Edited on 17-3-2004 by zakk]

i understand what ur saying zakk. but what about things like looking at someone and being able to tell theis detailed thoughts. have u heard of a guy called uri gellar? he claims to be able to bend spoons and read people's minds etc. anyway i had to spent a considerate amount of time in a room with him once for some reason and he asked if he could do some tricks or whatever u wanna call them. he asked me to think of an image, any image and then he drew it. directly. exactly what i had in my mind.same size etc. without me tellin him of course. but theni asked if i could do the same to him. and he said no way i'd never be able to do it.but i did. i drew whatever came into my mind when i looked in his eyes n got exactly what he was thinking of, as he turned over his paper it was even the same size and everything. he claimed to be really shocked and wouldnt leave me alone saying i was different and very telepathic but i think its just a trick. for example, he said something to me as he asked me to draw the picture which caused me to have this image in my head. like he said 'now you look at me and I will think of something' when he said this maybe my subconscious heard 'EYE will think of something' so i drew an eye.... confusing...but logical. what do u think?

happyk, for the sake of argument for the moment, I'm going to ignore that you mentioned Uri Gellar is involved.

To try and keep this on topic, let's start out with the following. What you both envisioned and later drew was simply an image. Just an image that was projected and drawn, there was nothing to interpret from that image.

You said you drew an eye, how detailed was it? Obviously, drawing simple shapes, triangles, squares, or objects lacking in detail is easier than say drawing a painting by Van Gogh. I find the notion that anyone can draw the "exact" image of something I picture in my mind, very far-fectched. Even now, if I sit here and picture a book, visually, sometimes the books changes color, shape, sometimes it has a title, sometimes it doesn't. Thought wise, my mind moves way too quickly to dwell on a static image for very long to make this probable.

Sure, I can accept the notion that a telepath could see I'm thinking of a book and draw a book. Could they pick out the specifics or draw them exactly as I pictured them? Not likely in my opinion.

You have to also consider that our world is very dynamic and things change all the time. So much so, that sometimes that our minds occasionally "fill-in" missing pieces of memory. Even if he was able to draw an image close to what you were thinking of, your mind may have wanted to believe that it was possible; so to complete the illusion it glanced over any discrepencies or filled in the missing pieces.

If you're asking me if I think you're a telepath. I don't know, to find out, I'd suggest trying to replicate the experience with different friends else under varying circumstances, different times of day, locations, etc.

Overall, (no pun intended) I think he was playing mind games with you. Letting people in on 'secrets' or making them feel as if they are part of something special, is a trick often used as a way legitimize a person's claims or influence. After all, once you're inside its much more difficult to want to disprove something. That would mean setting aside your ego and pride to admit you were wrong. It tends to make us not question what is going on and if no one is questioning their leader or the person that brought them in...their illusion of power and legitimacy remains, as does yours.

Originally posted by zakk
I'm going to ignore that you mentioned Uri Gellar is involved.

zakk, i think its relevant as he claims to be telepathic.you presented a view suggesting that i believe he is telepathic.thats all wrong... i was making the point that its amazing how you can control the way someone thinks by influencing their subconscious. with regard to your mind filling in the missing pieces that doesnt explain it. as i drew something,covered it up, and then he drew it. even though there were tiny differences and i mean tiny, when he drew a line along the bottom n along the top of my drawing and then on his, the scale was the same. anyway i dont know why im still talking about uri geller. i was using him as an example

Originally posted by ktprktpr

Seeing that most people incorporate some visual thinking, how can a telepathic claim to read minds? They can't be doing it like reading lines off a book, as in verbal thinkers. The images are totally personal and can't be externally de-ciphered. Furthermore, there is a sizable portion of the population that can or does only visual thinking. You can't read their minds. So what's going on here?

The answer is simple; translation. When a trained telepath enters the mind of a 'visual thinker', he will interpret what he encounters according to his own thought process. If the reciever is a visual thinker and the telepath is a linguistic thinker, the telepath will translate the pictures into words, and vice versa.

So your theory is misguided, but well thought out.

Greetings.

The key to telepathy, is the ability to work with energy. Telepathy is like tuning into a station, it's an controlled process that can be shutdown if wished so.

The thing most people cannot see, is that the world is based on energy, even the earth is made of vibrating energy.

The thing we call "Solidness", is like paint under a similar base. Matter is fast energy. Matter is formed by a a certain frequency, that is connected to this plane. Every plane has different frequencies and to manifest something in the world, the frequencies must be firstly found.

People are connected to the collective subconsius and even make links with persons even while talking to them. Even an internet nick, can be traced to the energy of an individual.

This is possible because everything in this world is energy and it's just a matter of choosing where to tune in.

Ever heard of the fire of prometheus or the divine spark ?. People are creators, thus they could alter the created, if they learned.

Just my random thoughts.

BF.

Originally posted by Bloodfang
Greetings.

The key to telepathy, is the ability to work with energy. Telepathy is like tuning into a station, it's an controlled process that can be shutdown if wished so.

The thing most people cannot see, is that the world is based on energy, even the earth is made of vibrating energy.

The thing we call "Solidness", is like paint under a similar base. Matter is fast energy. Matter is formed by a a certain frequency, that is connected to this plane. Every plane has different frequencies and to manifest something in the world, the frequencies must be firstly found.

People are connected to the collective subconsius and even make links with persons even while talking to them. Even an internet nick, can be traced to the energy of an individual.

This is possible because everything in this world is energy and it's just a matter of choosing where to tune in.

Ever heard of the fire of prometheus or the divine spark ?. People are creators, thus they could alter the created, if they learned.

Just my random thoughts.

BF.

That's a good explanation. Are you a psi, Bloodfang?

Bloodfang- Well sure, everything is made of energy. But "tuning into" just allows you receive something. Kind of like a radio tuner. You receive the signal, but can you interpret them? That's the question.

An, for a human, it has to be no. I'm not going to belabor this point but everyone seems to arbitrarily dismiss it w/o looking at the facts involved. In any case, to be telepathic you must have some kind of external interpreter, preferably divine.

reply to post by ktprktpr


It's very simple if all energy in the universe is "one" then it all makes sense, one uses mental ENERGY to think, concentrate, remember, etc. etc. its all connected just some are more apt than others at tuning in as i call it, also emotions have no language in ones mind if your someone who talks to themself you say what you feel (in your mind) your feelings are your emotions, words allow you to express your ideas, emotions and thoughts, my point is if you can understand someones true feelings by telepathy the words do not matter, you dont have to think twice just to think about something do you? NO. you just KNOW IT