Guantánamo children

Children Tortured at Guantánamo Bay

www.guardian.co.uk

Guantánamo's child prisoners came from all over the world: they were Afghan, Yemeni, Saudi, Russian, Uighuri, and Canadian. Five of them are still there. They are: Mohammed el Gharani, aged 14-15 when he was seized while praying in a Karachi mosque; Hassan bin Attash, aged 16-17 when seized in Pakistan, and rendered to Jordan where he endured 16 months of torture before being transferred; Faris Muslim Al Ansari, an Afghan-Yemeni who was 17 when captured; Mohamed Jawad, an Afghan who was 17 when seized and faces trial by military commission; and Omar Khadr.

(visit the link for the full news article)


Mod Edit - fixed title



[edit on 21-7-2008 by elevatedone]

14 year olds are a threat to National security now? Someone who wouldn't even be able to vote or smoke if they were an American citizen can be held without trial or any regard for human rights because they were praying in a Mosque?

This is not freedom. This is disgusting.

www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

FYI, you're supposed to use the actual title of the article, not make up your own inflammatory title.

The actual title is "Guantanamo Children".

if they willingly strap bombs to themselves and/or drop off a backpack/bomb in a crowded train station and if captured they have information on who gave them the explosives...sure torture the hell out of them. If it will save innocent lives, why not torture them?
the life it saves could be yours or your kids....

reply to post by evanmontegarde


Andrew Golden & Mitchell Johnson: Aged 11 & 13... Jonesboro, Ar, 1987. The pair shot 13 students & teachers, 5 of whom died.

Dylan Klebold: Age 17... Columbine, Co, 1999. With his friend Eric Harris, Klebold shot 37 students & teachers, killing 13 before committing suicide.

Kip Kinkel: Age 16... Springfield, Or, 1998. Executed his parents then went to his high school, shooting 25 students & teachers, killing 2 of them.

Barry Loukatis: Age 14... Moses Lake, Wa, 1996. Shot his algebra teacher and 2 students to death.

Jeffry Weise: Age 17... Red Lake, Mn, 2005. Shot his grandparents, then went to his high school and killed 7 students & teachers before killing himself.

Michael Carneal: Age 14... Peducah, Ky, 1997. Opened fire on a group of Christian students who were in a prayer circle, hitting 8 of them, 3 of whom died.

memri.org...

hrw.org...

www.ynetnews.com...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Yeah, age is certainly a limiting factor on the definition of the word "threat."

17 is a child now?

I have a friend Jay whos doing 120 years consecutive who was sentenced just after his 17th birthday.



Many people are in for life at that age all over the world.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


The ones that didn't die . Did they get tortured? Sent to another country. . Or did they receive a fair trail and sent to prison where they could deal with what they did ......... Wasn't that the American way?



[edit on 21-7-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by evanmontegarde

 

Andrew Golden & Mitchell Johnson: Aged 11 & 13... Jonesboro, Ar, 1987. The pair shot 13 students & teachers, 5 of whom died.

Dylan Klebold: Age 17... Columbine, Co, 1999. With his friend Eric Harris, Klebold shot 37 students & teachers, killing 13 before committing suicide.

Kip Kinkel: Age 16... Springfield, Or, 1998. Executed his parents then went to his high school, shooting 25 students & teachers, killing 2 of them.

Barry Loukatis: Age 14... Moses Lake, Wa, 1996. Shot his algebra teacher and 2 students to death.

Jeffry Weise: Age 17... Red Lake, Mn, 2005. Shot his grandparents, then went to his high school and killed 7 students & teachers before killing himself.

Michael Carneal: Age 14... Peducah, Ky, 1997. Opened fire on a group of Christian students who were in a prayer circle, hitting 8 of them, 3 of whom died.

memri.org...

hrw.org...

www.ynetnews.com...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Yeah, age is certainly a limiting factor on the definition of the word "threat."

Thank you for reinforcing my point!

All of those children you mentioned committed a crime and were (I hope) duly punished for it.

These held in Guantanamo Bay have committed no crime other than being associated with radical Islam.

Our justice system works on the presumption of innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

I suggest you go read the story "Minority Report" by Phillip K. Dick or watch the Tom Cruise movie if you must. It's very relevant.

jamie83, you're right and it appears as if a moderator edited it, thanks to them.

Originally posted by d11_m_na_c05


The ones that didn't die . Did they get tortured? Sent to another country. . Or did they receive a fair trail and sent to prison where they could deal with what they did ......... Wasn't that the American way?

Well, if you want to split hairs, the historical (and real) American way would have been to execute them dead on sight (both the school shooters and the enemy combatants.) This country doesn't have a history of taking prisoners, we have a history of enacting swift justice and retalliation. A string of crappy presidents who signed handcuffing international treaties and their predecessors trying to find ways to work inside those treaties via clever interpretation of them created this mess. I still haven't figured out why in the hell our military wasn't simply given orders to shoot on sight, clearing this matter up in the field and never opening the door for us to have to house and feed captive enemies,

Did you miss WW2 maybe? WW1?
The Revolutionary War?

We've always taken prisoners, and we've always taken great pride in treating prisoners humanely.

We're not barbarians (yet), no matter how disappointing that may be to some...

These people are not children. Childhood ends at puberty, which is usually over at 14. Any person over the age of 4 knows the difference between right and wrong no matter what country they are from. Clearly these young people made their choice and are being treated accordingly. The fact that they would be considered minors in many countries is inconsequential.

Whether or not they are enemy combatants depends on opinion, but it is a fact that they are not children.

[edit on 7/21/2008 by sc2099]

reply to post by evanmontegarde



I love how the government has twisted this whole situation where people actually attempt to justify these barbaric acts. Torture first ask questions later..Welcome to America, from your friendly, neo-con, fascist dictatorial regime.

I hope Bush burns in hell for his crimes. And for destroying the good name America built in over 200 years, in a mere 8. How about that...I guess he did accomplish something.

Originally posted by sc2099
These people are not children. Childhood ends at puberty, which is usually over at 14. Any person over the age of 4 knows the difference between right and wrong no matter what country they are from. Clearly these young people made their choice and are being treated accordingly. The fact that they would be considered minors in many countries is inconsequential.

Whether or not they are enemy combatants depends on opinion, but it is a fact that they are not children.

[edit on 7/21/2008 by sc2099]

Yes, they are children. I'm sorry but do you remember being a teen? Were all of your decisions made entirely by you or were they influenced or coerced? Maybe even forced? If you read the article, these kids were praying not fighting.

And whether they are enemy combatants does NOT depend on opinion, that is just absurd. It depends on incontrovertible evidence.

Originally posted by Fathom
if they willingly strap bombs to themselves and/or drop off a backpack/bomb in a crowded train station and if captured they have information on who gave them the explosives...sure torture the hell out of them. If it will save innocent lives, why not torture them?
the life it saves could be yours or your kids....

I'm sorry, but basic logic tells you, If they were strapped with explosives, they wouldn't be alive to be captured.

Clearly they aren't that much of a threat.

And might I remind you that so far, the majority of the prisoners in Guantanamo have had nothing to do with terrorism. They were simply innocent bystanders.

How many of them have yet to be actually charged?
Out of the hundreds arrested, go on, how many were guilty?
And yet they're still being tortured.

Quite frankly, I can't trust the Americans with the use of Guantanamo for fear they may ruin freedom for the rest of the world.
It's better the US locks up tight and turns fascist, than to bother the rest of us with this garbage.

Let the US build a wall around themselves. I don't see why they haven't finished it already.

[edit on 21-7-2008 by johnsky]

Originally posted by johnsky

Let the US build a wall around themselves. I don't see why they haven't finished it already.

[edit on 21-7-2008 by johnsky]

Because some of us are fighting this to the end. I wasn't even born in the USA, but this country is all I know and I will so what I must do to protect the freedom we enjoy here.

Torture is not the way for the beacon of freedom that called my family and I to come to America, fascism isn't the ideal we came here to see realized.

Originally posted by projectvxn


Yes, they are children. I'm sorry but do you remember being a teen? Were all of your decisions made entirely by you or were they influenced or coerced? Maybe even forced? If you read the article, these kids were praying not fighting.

No, they're not children. Childhood ends at the onset of puberty, which I have already explained to you. A teen is not a child. Teens behave like children because they are treated as children, i.e. with no consequences for their actions.

In countries that are still developing, childhood is over as soon as you're big enough to work on the farm; they don't even wait for the biological end. These young people do the same work as adults and if they mess up, the family suffers. They're not allowed to loaf about until they decide what they want to do with their life. Teens have the mental capacity of older adults but they are infantilized by western society and thus continue to behave as children until they are literally forced not to.

In my teen years I was making my own decisions and making my own life so I know that others are capable of doing the same. Haven't you ever noticed that 'latch key kids' are able to do their chores, cook their meals, and go to school? They succeed because they have to. Young people aren't the mentally deficient babies sosciety makes them out to be.

Originally posted by sc2099

Teens have the mental capacity of older adults...

This is not true. And scientific study proves this.

cals-cf.calsnet.arizona.edu...

ncsu.edu...

These studies indicate that even though teens are capable of making their own decision, they are not capable of ENTIRELY and FULLY understanding the consequences of their actions. (There are exceptions to this rule of course but that has more to do with social influences and norms than it does with cognitive brain development).

Just because you said that childhood ends at puberty doesn't mean that you explained why this would be true. Claims like this require evidence, and there is none.

You pro torture things do realize that most of the people in the prison were not captured by US forces but by other "soldiers" who get paid thousands for every "terrorist" they turn in. There was this one bunch who turned in quite a few and it turned out they were catching innocent people to blame for the terrorist acts they themselves and their associates had been perpetrating. The money they got probably helped them carry out more attacks and probably still funds other scumbags working the same scheme.

The tapes and photos from the scandal that were absolutely forbidden to be released showed US forces raping the wives and young children of the suspected terrorists. They made sure these guys could hear their screams. The fact that you condone such despicable acts is absolutely disgusting. You are the same people that would scream bloody murder if the tables were turned and you were the recipients. Or would you welcome it with open arms since you obviously deserve it? Not that we could ever prove it since you never had a trial.

im with you dk, i simply can not understand why people think that torture is ok....it just goes to show that there is a sickness in some people that is malignant and festering. as for torturing children well it just beggers belief.
m x
edit typo

[edit on 22-7-2008 by morganathefey]

reply to post by projectvxn


I don't want to derail this thread, but I will post an academic source that backs my interpretation of teen cognitive ability and I will also post the definition of 'childhood' for your benefit since you can't be bothered to look it up.

Working with colleague Diane Dumas, Dr. Epstein has developed a unique and comprehensive test—the Epstein-Dumas Test of Adultness (EDTA)—that measures 14 different competencies that appear to define adult functioning in modern society. Based on scores obtained from adults and teens, Drs. Epstein and Dumas recently concluded that American teens are, on the average, just as competent as American adults—and that adults greatly underestimate the abilities of our teens. Their research also shows a link between "infantilization"—the extent to which teens are treated like children—and behavioral problems in teens.

Source

The test used can be found here:

Epstein-Dumas Test


childhood

noun
1. the time of person's life when they are a child
2. the state of a child between infancy and adolescence

Emphasis mine. Obviously the implication of this definition is that childhood ends at adolescence, which is the onset of puberty.

dictionary.com

People cannot be absolved of the consequences of their actions simply because they are a minor.