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A NEW, NEW, NEW re-examination of an old case(in progress)

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posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 05:08 PM
OK, I'm going to do a re-examination of the Hill case.

I've located Fuller's book,
Author: Hynek, J. Allen (Joseph Allen), 1910-1986
Title: The UFO experience; a scientific inquiry [by] J. Allen Hynek.
Publication info: Chicago, H. Regnery Co. [1972]
Description: xii, 276 p. illus. 24 cm.
Note: Includes bibliographical references.
Subject: Unidentified flying objects.

J. Allen Hynek's book,
The UFO experience; a scientific inquiry
Hynek, J. Allen (Joseph Allen), 1910-1986
Author: Hynek, J. Allen (Joseph Allen), 1910-1986
Title: The UFO experience; a scientific inquiry [by] J. Allen Hynek.
Publication info: Chicago, H. Regnery Co. [1972]
ISBN: $6.95
Description: xii, 276 p. illus. 24 cm.
Note: Includes bibliographical references.
Subject: Unidentified flying objects.

..and will try to tie in Stan Friedman's new book.

Captured!: The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience by Stanton T. Friedman, Kathleen Marden, Bruce Maccabee (Foreword by)
* Publisher: Career Press, Incorporated
* Pub. Date: July 2007
* ISBN-13: 9781564149718
* Sales Rank: 76,117
* 319pp

I had a nicely formatted 100 line post detailing all of this but ATS decided it best to delete this. So this re post will be brief.

posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 05:16 PM
Sorry about the freaking title. ATS just did not want this post.

In the last link, Ms Fish, Carl Sagan, Robert Shaeffer and some other well-known scientists rebutt and counter-rebutt the case.

Ms Fish has a winning final rebuttal and I think Shaeffer gave a grudging approval for parts of her work. I don't think Sagan and others saw the forest for the trees, for as Gazrock said, the map is (tentatively) described as a luminous 3-D map.

I just want to re-confirm that Ms Hill did not have any contamination of her description by prompting from Ms Fish. That's why I want to re-read the three books.

It will take a while because I have the library bringing them in from various remote locations.

So bear with me. I hope this will be a well-researched examination with lots of links and illustrations.

posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:32 PM
reply to post by Badge01

I really enjoyed "Captured". The book has so much new information and corrects some errors in Fuller's book. We learn a lot more about Betty and Barney and I got a whole new respect for them. I know it is a little biased from Betty's niece, but it is a great read.
The library got used to me getting books from other libraries in the state on loan.
I should add there is such a difference in this book (Captured) and Travis Walton's second book. Travis has such a believe me or go to hell attitude throughout his whole book, it leaves you questioning it. Captured is the opposite.

Edited to add

[edit on 7/16/2008 by kidflash2008]

posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 07:56 PM
reply to post by Badge01

I have evry confidence that you will do a first rate job.

I look forward to seeing the finished work.

Please make sure to bring it to my attention.

posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 09:23 PM
The Fuller book is being sent via inter-library loan, and the J.Allen Hynek book, which has a substantial section on the hypnosis is in the Astronomy library.

I re-read the relevant sections of the Friedman book tonight, and I'm a little disappointed, but I'll withhold judgment until they're all in.

Here's a quote from the Friedman book. I"ve tried my best to preserve the pagination and the punctuation. Part of it is recreated in Google Books. /6d2mfo

Page 130:
When we compare this hypnotically retrieved information to Betty's
dream sequence, we find that they are nearly identical. However, the
dream recall is not nearly as rich with detailed as the hypnotic recall, which
suggest that she might have confabulated to add more detail to her ac-
count but that is mere speculation. In "Dreams or Reality?" she wrote,
"I suggested that what was needed was absolute proof that this had hap-
pened; maybe he could give me something to take back with me. He
agreed and asked what I would like. I looked around the room and found
a large book. I asked if I could take this with me and he agreed. I was so
happy, and thanked him. I opened the book and found symbols written in
long, narrow columns. He asked jokingly if I thought I could read it and
I said that this was impossible: I had never seen anything like it. I was not
taking this for reading purposes, but this was my absolute proof of the
experience, and that I would always remember him as long as I lived."
Then the leader crossed the room and pulled a map out of an opening
in the wall and asked Betty if she had ever seen a map like it before. She
walked across the room and leaned against a table, looking up at the
oblong map with lots of scattered stars all over it. Some were little, just pin-
points, and other were as big as a nickel. On some of the dots, there
were curved lines going from one dot to another. Then, there was one
large circle with several heavy, solid lines that connected to another
Page 131
slightly smaller circle....he rolled the map up and put it back into the
space in the wall and closed it

Later she says:
"...he went over to the wall and pulled down a map." (Stan continues)
It is apparent that Betty's dream mimics 1961 technology: the leader
pulls down a map reminiscent of classroom geological maps, which
he snapped back into place. an interview with Kathy, the map became "almost like looking
out a window about three feet wide and two feet high. The pattern was
on the forefront. Other stars were there but not so noticeable. The stars
in which I had an interest were those that were connected by lines,
although others were noticeable to me, maybe from the angle
from which I was looking."

Nowhere in this recounting does Betty talk about the map being specifically 3-D, though she implies there was a layer. She does not describe, here, any luminosity.

In the synopsis that Ms Fish creates:

Map Facts

1. The map was 3-D.

2. The stars glowed.

3. The stars were tinted.

4. There were no grid lines.

5. There was no concentration of stars, so the galactic plane concentration of stars (Milky Way) was not apparent, probably showing (if the map represented reality) only local stars were in it. Another possibility would be that only selected stars were in it. But since they were interested in the sun, and there are a number of stars similar to the sun in the local neighborhood, Psyche, if it existed, would still be local.

6. The map was about 3 feet long by 2 feet high.

7. The map was similar to a reflective hologram. The map material was thin. It had no (sic)linticular lines as in one of our 3-D processes. It was not a projection.

I'm not sure at this time where Marjorie Fish got this new, enhanced description, but it's also contained at the end of the Friedman book, also written by Ms Fish:

From Google Books, link above:

...That's enough for now.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 09:41 PM
reply to post by kidflash2008

Hmm, can you recall any of the errors that it corrects?

Amazon has a preview:

Google books has a lot more. (link in prev post).

I probably have 'Journey' in a box in the basement, but I'm hoping I don't have to go try and dig through it if the Library loan delivery comes through.

Captured is quite detailed. Stan does a nice job. He even casts some doubt here and there, indicating he's not afraid to follow the truth.

I also read through his new book. "Flying Saucers are Real".


And it's also very good. I almost bought it, but gah, I just don't feel ready to buy into that dogma right now.

I will say this. He really points out how duplicitous and self-serving and careless the debunkers and the military are. It's ridiculous. What the heck is their problem?

It's back and forth, Stan doing real interviews and the debunkers and military just grabbing the nearest convenient half truth and throwing it out there, knowing full well they're lying.

Fortunately, Stan's willing to work hard and they come across as buffoons.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 02:40 PM
reply to post by Badge01

I don't recall what problems "Captured" had with "Journey". I think they were mostly minor. I would love to hear the actual tapes themselves to clear things up, but they will not be released because they get very personal.

posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 04:11 PM
reply to post by kidflash2008

Here's a couple of reference images from "Captured!", by Stan Friedman. (from Google books and

From page 289

From page 235 One version of the Marjorie Fish Map:

I'm not completely up on Astronomy symbols, so corrects to the various star names are welcome. I got as close as I could with notes and Greek letter look ups.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 06:21 PM
Here's the wiki page graphic on the Fish map.

These designations seem different than the ones in the Friedman book version.

01. Tau 1 Eridani
02. Gliese 59
03. Gliese 95
04. Kappa Fornacis
05. Gliese 86.1
06. Gliese 67
07. 54 Piscium
08. 107 Piscium
09. Gliese 86
10. Tau Ceti
11. 82 Eridani
12. Sol
13. Zeta 1 Reticulum
14. Alpha Mensae
15. Zeta 2 Reticulum

Friedman book designations (best I could make out)
01. Zeta' Ret
02. Zeta² Ret
03. Zeta Tue (?)
04. Beta Pav
05. Gamma Pav
06. Tau Eri
07. Tau Cet
08. Sun
09. 107 Psc
10. 54 Psc
11. Nu Cas
12. 61 UMa
13. Groom 1830
14. Beta (B) CMa (B Canus Major)
15. 618 Ore (61 mu Orion?)
16. b Com
17. § UMa
18. h Boo
19. Sirius
20. Procyon
21. A. Cent
22. Beta (B) Hyi
• Epsilon Eridanus
• Barnard's Star
01. Reticuli
02. Zet1 Ret
03. Zet2 Ret
04. Pav = Pavo, the Peacock
06. Eri = Eridanus
Theta Eri
07. Cet = Cetus
09. Psc=Pices
11. Cas=Cassiopea
12., 17. UMa = Ursa Major
13. Groom 1830 (acrobat file)
14. CMa=Canus Major
15. Ore=Orion(?)
16. Com = Coma Berenices
18. Boo=Boötes
19. Sirius (Canus Major)
20. Procyon (Canis Minor)
21. Alpha Centaurus
22. Hyi – Hydrus
Eri = Eridanus
Theta Eri
Bernard’s Star – In Ophiuchus

posted on Jul, 17 2008 @ 06:56 PM
46 Nearest Stars to Sol (Sun).

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 06:22 AM
Re-discovered interpretation of the Betty Hill/Marjorie Fish Star Map

written by Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg

First off, the following has been mentioned on ATS before, but only in passing. Nobody did any linking or explanation, and nobody referenced the actual details of the arguments that were contained in the Kyborg-Koch interpretation, that I could find. Again, I'm not claiming that this is new, just newly defined on ATS, and I hope my explanation gives it additional impact.

There is fairly good evidence that the Marjorie Fish map is not representative of the Zeta-Reticuli System, but is actually a depiction (in real time, circa 19-10-61) of our own Solar System, viewed from the perspective of high above the plane of the orbits of the planets, from a position behind Jupiter.

In 1995, Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg showed, using a planetarium program, that our own Solar System was the depicted objects in the map. The fit is surprisingly good. In fact they actually read the account more closely, realizing that there were probably two maps, one oblong, which was stored in the wall and one 3x2 which was rectangular and was pulled down. The latter squares with the 'leader's' comments more closely:

She then asked the leader where he and his craft had come from. Betty wrote that, in response, from the wall the leader "pulled down a map, strange to me ... It was a map of the heavens" marked with numerous stars and planets. (Clark, 281) There were different types of lines between some of the stars which denoted, she was told, trade and exploration routes. The leader asked Betty if she knew where the Earth was located on the map

I'm only posting this graphic because I wanted to combine the three tables in one to more easily see the captions and to note one important thing. NOTE THAT THE CENTRAL DOT, In the red square is no labeled in the Marjorie Fish version. It seems unlikely to me that Betty would remember that dot in the center of the map and Marjorie not find a location for that body. But in the KK version it represents the Sun!

Further, there's a subtle comment by Betty, allegedly made during a television program Contact UFO - Alien Abduction (possibly available from Amazon) :

In this context, Betty's words from the television program are interesting when she said: "...and it was almost [as if] it was all realistic - it was almost like looking at the sky and even some of the objects seemed to be slowly moving..." (emphasis mine)

This is even more mind-boggling, and indicative of a true event, because Betty could not have imagined that she was seeing her own Solar System in real-time, although from an odd perspective, above the plane of the ecliptic, from a position behind Jupiter, yet she picked up the slight movements (probably of an asteroid) without knowing the implications. This is not a detail that could be fabricated. It's not proof, but IMO, it gives the Hill event new impact.

I don't want to post any more graphics from the Koch site. The best method for understanding the implications of this is to read through their site.

The thing to keep in mind is the subtle new interpretation they give of the actual actions and comments made by the 'Leader' to Betty, and that it's unlikely he'd have made them, asking her to locate Earth on a map of ZR.

Further, read my first post in this thread where I go over the fact that there were two maps, one oblong and one rectangular.

I believe there a strong possibility that the oblong map was of the home system, wherever that was, and the rectangular pull-down map was the Kochkyborg representation.

Happy space-faring.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 06:54 AM
To make it easier for folks to read the K-K site, here's the ToC page, linked.

Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg

©1993,1995, Berlin, Germany English version co-edited by Doug Girling, Vancouver, Canada,©1995


1. Abstract
2. Introduction
3. The "Star Map"- What do we Know?
4. Some Considerations About Betty Hill's Descriptions
5. The Discovery
6. The Results
7. "And he said that he wished I knew more about this..."
8. Afterword
9. Bibliography

Just to emphasize this is not my work or my interpretation. The credit goes to K-K. I just added some minor details and tied in some comments from Wikipedia and from the Friedberg book.

It's not definitive, but definitely warrants a close inspection and an open mind. It has a minor flaw, in that Betty appears to describe the oblong map in similar terms relative to the Z-R home planet map (or where ever the first map depicted - IMO, it's now not clear what was on one of the maps, or if they were different. One explanation for the two versions might be Betty's attempt to give some stability and continuity to her experience.).

But, it's certainly possible there were two maps, indeed, Betty describes two maps (although one might have been described within a dream and the other during hypnosis), and she conflated the contents of one against the other. The Leader's comments are a strong indication that the second map clearly showed Earth, such that if Betty was more knowledgeable, and realized the Sun was in the center, she could have picked it. There is some additional evidence that the 'Leader' was worried he'd said too much and quickly put the second map away.

The other troubling aspect is that the details of the second map appear to have become more elaborate as time went on, since the original descriptions in the Fuller book may not contain comments about the planets/stars being luminous, and the comments about them moving appear to be contained only in the video "Contact UFO-Alien Abduction"

However, it seems even more statistically significant that the map could be matched to Earth, using the 'Dance of the Planets' Planetarium program, on that very date in 1961 than even the Marjorie Fish interpretation.

Edit: New info - one month later the sim was run

In the end the reader has to decide for themselves.

I hope this re-examination has been worth your time.

I'll add some additional details when I get the Fuller book and possibly the J.Allen Hynek book.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:07 AM
OK, I made a small error on the previous page.

The Dance of the Planets sim was not done on the day of the abduction, but approximately one month later. Betty had been remembering other/different/more detailed events in nightmares.

I'm trying to get a sim of the Dance of the Planets to confirm this.

K-K's reference page gives some coordinates to try.

Sorry about that.

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 09:17 AM

There is fairly good evidence that the Marjorie Fish map is not representative of the Zeta-Reticuli System, but is actually a depiction (in real time, circa 19-10-61) of our own Solar System, viewed from the perspective of high above the plane of the orbits of the planets, from a position behind Jupiter.

The problem with this interpretation is that it has no relevance to the narrative Betty gave and is taken completely out of context. She claims she was shown the map and stars were pointed out, not planets, and that even the colors of certain stars were identified. The Joachim Koch and Hans-Juergen Kyborg interpretation simply tries to ignore the testimony and shoe-horn it into their own idea, independent of her testimony.

As for why the description of the map would increase with time, it's likely due to terminology and technology changes. How do you describe a 3D map before holograms were even a general idea? Simple, you do so as you would a 2D map. In all examinations of the testimony, even though it clarified over time, as the terminology allowed for more accurate description, it does not contradict itself.

Of course, if holding to the two maps idea...then any conjecture is valid, but going from her narrative, and the map drawn under hypnosis, the Zeti-Reticuli connection correlated with the identified yellow stars, is simply too much coincidence to be ignored. It is an excellent analysis, to be sure, but I'm puzzled by the Dance of the Planets link. Says it was established in 1981, in Colorado, not 1961 anywhere near the Hills. Am I missing another reference to it?

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 10:39 AM
reply to post by Gazrok

Points taken. There is some risk of losing one's stance and letting in additional skepticism (the other side 'blinked') by stepping back and suggesting that the Fish map could be fit by a computerized orrery of the Solar System, so I understand your reluctance.

The points in favor of the K-K map are:
1. It explains the central 'star', which has no interpretation on the Fish map.
2. It explains the two maps that Betty remembers, one a oblong, and one a pull-down map. I clearly cited this from the Friedman book.
3. If, indeed, Betty said in the movie that some objects appeared to be moving, it explains that also, since smaller, closer bodies like asteroids are likely to have discernable movement.
4. It actually -supports- the flat reflective hologram claim (movement)
5. It explains the "Leader's" question 'Can you locate Earth'.
6. 'Trade routes' are more likely to be to specific planets, not to 'star systems'. It makes a little more sense to be 'trading' at Solar System distances than at 10 light year distances. What good would a trade map be to a space faring ET if it just pointed to a 'star'. Arguably, that would be so imprecise as to be ludicrous and useless.
7. K-K postulates that the 'real time' aspect could indicate that the ship took off and was viewing this in flight. However this works against the orrery, since it was done one month later.

I think it's worth re-reading the K-K explanation. It's quite elegantly put.

Points against the K-K map:
1. Betty says 'stars'. But to a lay person in 1961, planets were indistinguishable from 'stars'. Even the idea of 'tinkle' may not have been apprehended. We can't claim that the leader said 'stars'. He may have said 'bodies', or 'celestia'. Heh, who knows.
2. Betty made the claim about 'nickel-sized' after seeing the oblong map. This was made under hypnosis
3. The pull-down 'hollogrammatic themed' map was reported in her dream. Stan thinks she may have confabulated here.
But this same discrepancy is supportive of the K-K map, since, as Betty says when she asked the leader where he was from: (from my WIki link earlier

"She then asked the leader where he and his craft had come from. Betty wrote that, in response, from the wall the leader "pulled down a map, strange to me ... It was a map of the heavens"

This follows that the oblong map may have been a different map.

You have to admit it gives a new 'chill' when you read about Betty possibly describing some the bodies as moving, not to mention the thrill that K-K must have felt when they first plugged the co-ordinates into the DoP software. (the K-K hypothesis was made in the mid-90s, the DoP software was developed in the 80s - not sure I understand your question).

Had you seen this before or is my analysis at least value-added?

Thanks for looking.

Edit: DoP software developed in late 80s, probably, but first release in 1990.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 10:46 AM
Sadly, the local libraries now report the Fuller book as 'missing'.

In the Lain Abductio.

In the French enlevé

I'll do a basement search later.

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 10:55 AM
It certainly does provide food for thought, but I was simply assuming that the map shown to Betty had slight movement incorporated into it, as a holoprojection likely would...especially if showing the bodies in relative motion to a fast moving craft.

If the scale of the map was interstellar, then yes, it makes sense that the "trade" routes would be to the star systems, and not the individual planets, as it is an overview...and specifically tied to the leader's point, "i.e. of visting other yellow stars like their own"...

While we could diverge from Betty's testimony and look for other similarities, to do so would basically be to discard the map/s altogether, as the two cannot really be separated. To accept that Betty could get them "mixed up" on one hand, but to then accept a faithful recreation under hypnosis on the other, seems to be a bit of a double standard. Either the hypnosis clarified it, and allowed her to do the recreation, or it didn't.

The Dance of the Planets sim was not done on the day of the abduction, but approximately one month later. Betty had been remembering other/different/more detailed events in nightmares.

I missed this clarification earlier, but from her testimony and from those who knew her, it seems unlikely Betty ever saw such a thing. In any case, the time seems off anyhow, so likely a nonissue, but it's always good to look at all possibilities.

There is some risk of losing one's stance and letting in additional skepticism

I'm cool with that. I originally went into the Roswell case expecting to make a strong case for the Mogul explanation...but the more I dug, the more implausible that became...and what began as a page-long post in the beginning, became a huge undertaking...

I think I'll need to read the material of the K-K map a bit more thoroughly before passing judgement, as I only gave it some cursory lookups.

In any case, it's certainly some impressive information you've provided here...

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 11:37 AM
OK, thanks, but I fear you're still not -quite- understanding the Dance of the Planets. I also made a date mismatch. It was probably created in late 1989-ish, but looks like the first release was around 1990

The -setting- of the lookback in the Software, which was =run= in the mid 1990s was set to look back to 1961, one month (approx) after Betty's nightmares started. (October 1961).

Wiki doesn't have this delayed run time, but I found a link which clarifies:

The "major assumption" to which we refer is that their best solution comes not on the day of the actual abduction but on a day about one month later during the nights that Betty Hill experienced nightmares of the abduction and saw the star map again in her dreams.

The real time the sim was run by K-K was the 1990s (1993 I believe).

The software was created as a DOS program in the late 1980s, so it was not available in 1961, obviously. K-K does make the point that if Betty had -only- realized or had it explained, she could have gone to a large planetarium and asked them to run a setting for the position of the planets in Sept and Oct and perhaps they could have found the match. (or more likely had Marjorie Fish ask them).

o Abduction date 1961
o Fish map done February, 1973. (
o Software creation 1990-ish but updated for VGA graphics in 1994.
o K-K simulation first run around 1993, copyright updated in 1995
o Software settings on the simulation set backwards in time for approx October 1961, but runtime in 1993-95.

HTH. Sorry for any confusion. I have not tracked down a copy.

Haha, As I said in email, I went looking for a debunking and found a new reason for optimism. Fancy that.

(Plus, would Pease AFB hire strong Circus midgets to drag Barney across the pavement??) (j/k).

[edit on 18-7-2008 by Badge01]

posted on Jul, 18 2008 @ 03:33 PM
Excellent work here. While I have only skimmed the surface, and will take the time later this evening for a complete read, I am indebted to the OP for this body of work for our boards.

This is the kind of discussion and sources which lead to understanding and learning, no matter which direction one may ultimatly end up taking on this matter. Debate, intelligent debate, is founded on the idea of sharing knowledge and details, and here we have much to digest and discuss.

All of those ATSers who have complained about lack of details need to find this thread. I have starred and flagged this for that reason. No matter what one ends up believing in this case, at least we have a good bit to use to reach our decisions.

Thank you Badge.

[edit on 18-7-2008 by NGC2736]

posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 03:10 AM
Doing great Badge!

Thought about this evening when I ran across these:

Youtube of Betty and Barney Hill

Betty talks about encounter

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