Dressing to survive the cold

Thanks for the heads up I knew them boots were to good to be true...I now know why they trying to palm them off to people for 10 quid.

Great thread yet again Dan.

I'm another one who 'runs hot'.
People thought I was an idiot windsurfing mid winter.. best time ..yayy..

Layers layers layers.. great advice..

If you can read the weather it REALLY helps in predicting your day's attire..(That's for another thread )
You can unnecessarily expend a lot of energy changing to suitable clothing.
Pack down/clothes out/wrong ones off/clothes in pack/pack back up.

Just came back from a couple of days wander..verrry nice
(too warm and too convenient pubs)

Came back to a bundle of toys to unwrap too..including poncho..cant wait to get back out next week again

ps.. So you really don't rate those Mickey Mouse boots?
What's your preference? I've got wide flipper feet..kinda inbuilt snow shoes

reply to post by AGENT_T



In built snow shoes.... hahahaha me too!


But no, the mickey M's are well known to be puddles of sweat in a cold day leading to all sorts of nasties. Its the felt and wool lining and lack of breathability. Its just a great big welly filled with wool to be brutal about it.

Next post......... BOOTS!

A nice warm blanket, layers of old clothes, and some plastic bags...newspapers, and cardboard boxes...

Bums have been doing it for ages man, learn from the pro's

Boots. They need to have three things borne in mind when we choose our foot wear.

Where am I going? What time of year am I going? What do I expect to do when I get there?.

These three questions in this thread are answered like this.

I am going into the mountains to hide. I am going in winter. Crossing snow lines, walking long distances in sub zero temperatures.

So, this then tells us we need three things from our boot.

It needs to be warm enough to cope with the cold. Needs to be rigid enough to cope with deep snow and maybe take a crampon to cross ice fields / patches of frozen snow. It needs to be breathable to wick moisture from my feet to prevent moisture / cold injuries.

So......

Boot ratings first. This is important to help us choose.



B0: Not suitable for crampons. A flexible walking boot.(Not suitable for crampon use at all)

B1: Flexible boots that are suitable for trekking and hill walking only.
(C1 flexible crampon use at a push)

B2: Semi-rigid boots for mountaineering and easier grade snow and mixed climbing not for steep ice and harder mixed climbs though. (C1 and C2 crampons i.e. flexible and semi rigid crampons)


B3: Fully rigid boots for mountaineering at all levels and difficulties. Not at all good for a long walk in though! (all crampon types though i.e. C1,2 and 3).

So we see these boots and discard B3 - we need to walk miles in these, but we know we will encounter snow at some times very deep and need crampons. That leaves us with B2 boots or B1 boots.

So, all that borne in mind, we go try some on and come out with my own personal choice of boot.

Scarpa SL M3. great 4 seasons boot, durable, great moisture management system, waterproof leather uppers, great traction from the sole, and can be used with flexible crampons in times of need.

(However, should you stumble across me in a white out in winter on top of the hills, I will have a pair of these on my delicate little tootsies.

La SportivaNepal Extreme Boots. The dogs danglies for extended cold climbing and snow work.

For hanging around camp I will however have a pair of these stuck on my feet.
Baffin boots

I'm just picky in times of plenty... lol.

Originally posted by The Soldier Of Darkness
A nice warm blanket, layers of old clothes, and some plastic bags...newspapers, and cardboard boxes...

Bums have been doing it for ages man, learn from the pro's

Thats why they die by the hundred each winter and are found at 6 am frozen solid.

reply to post by Dan Tanna


Noooo, that's cause they drink to much, sniff too much petrol and eat out of garbage bins...

So you really don't rate those Mickey Mouse boots?

reply to post by AGENT_T

An old mountaineer here. Highest was 24.9 T without O2, worst experience was falling into a crevase and doing verticle self rescue on the rope.

The people I saw die usually did something stupid taking chances or the big one, high altitude sickness/ syndrom. If you can't think clearly you make bad choices. You never know how your body is going to react to high altitude (above 8,000 ft). Some people are definately more resistant than others. Even very fit athletes can suffer.

Here in Alaska the bunny boot (probably a better version of the Mickey Mouse boot?) has a reputation for being the best for really cold conditions. You wear them and your feet do not freeze! They may be clammy but just change your socks. They are big and clumsy but at least your feet aren't cold. Can't wear them climbing as they're too floppy. You buy them on the net or military surplus not sporting stores. They're expensive, white and worth the money if it's really arctic cold, anything below zero(F).

After umpteen years of wearing poly pro I've swithed to pure silk first layer due mainly to comfort. It feels better next to the skin and works about as well except in arctic conditions.

reply to post by plumranch


lOL if any one here is going to 8000m to escape, then best of British to them!



I am interested why you gone back to silk when merino wool is available? I still swear by my winter htree layers of similar wicking material to keep me toasty and dry, but still, its good to hear from an old sweat about his choices of gear and ganer some advice!

reply to post by Dan Tanna


I already escaped by coming to Alaska 30+ yrs ago,lol. I may return to warmer climates (OR) soon.

Why the silk lower layer? Because Cabellas pushes them, I tried a pair and liked the feel better than anything else. So when I grab something out of the drawer I'll go for the silk first. Try a nice light pair on a cool day and my guess is you'll like them. Biggest thing is that clothes don't bunch up if you're active. Didn't think I'd like them either at first.

I still go back to wearing my high altitude stuff here on the lowland when it is cold. It was good then, it's good now!

Another article of clothing that is really great for below zero is a pair of bibbers lined with polarguard or even down. You won't be wearing them for hiking but most cold outdoor activities involve long snowmobile or airplane rides or even sitting around in a tent and they're great for that. Guys on the north slope are wearing them and I notice the new airforce cold weather pants are good also. Pulling them on on a cold day when you're cold is like slipping into a warm saunna.

Ever try riding a snowmobile when it's colder than -10 degrees F? The stuff they sell at the dealerships doesn't work for me. Same thing goes for flying small airplanes when it is that cold. You better be prepared or you won't stay up long!

What if you're a fat man and you sweat nomatter what the tempurature is?
I'm a little odd, I only sweat in places that my body makes conntact with. So when I sit, my back and butt sweat cause they are touching the seat nomatter what tempurature it is. if I'm running around and stuff I don't sweat nearly at all nomatter what the terperature is (only on the shoulders and chest a little cause that's the part of my body being touched).
So is there something wrong with my body? Am I not sweating the way I should?

-Jimmy

Dan
I was just reading your post about boots and I dont really know about boots apart from DM's really Or what about a good pair of Merrels for walking/hiking?

Or what about a good pair of Merrels for walking/hiking?

reply to post by Dar Kuma

Hi Dar,

I think you're talking about a rubber bottom, leather top boot with a felt liner. (OP chime in on this please too) I've walked umpteen thousand miles in these also and they are always comfortable due to the felt liners that can't abraid the foot. They are well insulated cause of the 3/8" liners. But they get wet and each day, so you have to pull out the liners and dry them by morning.

The liners wear out due to stomping about and need replacement every year or so.

Don't expect them to work below 10 degrees F or so to keep your feet from freezing. They weren't designed for that and won't. If you aren't active they won't work well. Wear bunny boots if you're going to just sit or stand around.

There are numerous fancy modern boots on the market that are a joy to buy and use! They'll give you a whole lot more satisfaction for your money than, for instance, buying gasoline or paying taxes!

Most of the information posted here is very good;

By far the best footwear for extreme cold i've encountered is the Finnish winter boot, with felt liners.
M/91 winter boots
As long as you have a spare pair of liners and socks you can keep your feet dry and warm in sub -30f temperatures.

Good pair of inner soles will also improve any footwears winter cababilities into a new level.

Wool middle layer and wind proof top is my choise for most situations. As for the lowest layer i prefer Rukka Microtube (may be currently sold with another name, mine are from a prototype batch ) underwears.

Any sturdy leather (hiking/military) boot with proper inner sole, polish and woollen sock will keep you going down to -20C.


In finnish army, there are three rules for cold weather survival:
1)Stay Dry!
2)Layer up, and remove layers when you start physical activities.
3)Keep Moving or make a shelter, don't stand around idle.
4th additional rule, drink, dehydration is a bitch even in winter.

Originally posted by northwolf
By far the best footwear for extreme cold i've encountered is the Finnish winter boot, with felt liners.
M/91 winter boots
As long as you have a spare pair of liners and socks you can keep your feet dry and warm in sub -30f temperatures.

agree, best winter boots i have ever used. little heavy and you must remember to take liners out of boots every evening, but others ways good. plus there is places for ski bindings. much faster to ski than walk.seems that you can even get them from civilian market nowdays.

Wool middle layer and wind proof top is my choise for most situations.

agree again. wool is good. it can be soaking wet, but it is still warm. we all have seen windfactor charts, most of times it is more dangerous than the temperature itself. Usually wetnes is not anymore big problem at this point, because all water is frozen. offcourse, raingear must be available, if weather changes.

1)Stay Dry!
2)Layer up, and remove layers when you start physical activities.
3)Keep Moving or make a shelter, don't stand around idle.
4th additional rule, drink, dehydration is a bitch even in winter.

2)whatch out for overwarming. we made skimarch in the middle of night at -15 C, whit only underwear, thin uniform and snowcamo suit on us. still sweated. middle layer would have killed us.
3) this is why nobody likes guarding. if you are freezing move, it increases bodys heat production.
4)even bigger than in summer, because it can cause inactivity. that leads to immediate hypothermia, unless you have shelter and warmt. You should drink same amount of water in cold as in heat.

Someone mentioned leaving canteen little empty to stop it freezing. There is much simpler method for that. keep canteen between your clothing. This way your body temperature keeps it warm. it takes little warmt from body, but you lose much more when drinking near frozen liquid. Or get thermobottle. we got ones at army as special eguipment. worth the weight.

Allso signalist tip:keep all batteries in your chest pockets, this way body keeps them warm and running. Offcourse this needs that batteries are small enough.
signalist tip2: use thin cloth gloves under your primary handwear. If you have to do precission jobs (like using messagesystems keyboard), it is much nicer with even thin gloves than barehanded in -25C. This way you dont have to compromice with top layers to get more mobility.

reply to post by hopea


Some great tips there.
Thanks for your input.

Do you have a link for the thermobottle type you use.. make/model?

Thin gloves..definitely.. try tying off a fishing line at below zero in a good wind at night with bare hands.. challenging.
I make all my rigs beforehand for that reason and use link clips to the leader.line.

Originally posted by AGENT_T
reply to post by hopea

 

Thin gloves..definitely.. try tying off a fishing line at below zero in a good wind at night with bare hands.. challenging.

I make all my rigs beforehand for that reason and use link clips to the leader.line.

Yep, me too. Though I do wear fingerless fishing gloves in wintertime as well. I usually spend half of the night foraging for firewood/driftwood instead of fishing ...... a fire is a greedy monster that continually needs feeding

Indian Army mountain boot

See these bad boys? At the Siachen battle field, the Indian special Forces wear these and only these.

Know how high the Siachen Glacier is? 21,000 feet. Thats no typo. 21,000 feet.
Know how many cold injurioes they get a year through poor footwear? 0. Big fat zero.

Not a good boot for low levels, but a boot that saves feet in proven winter glacier war fighting.

Originally posted by Dan Tanna
here is a quick pic of my winter heavy cold glove system. I have a pair of 95% Polypro glove as inners, and a heavier polypro lined, Event membrane middle, kangaroo leather palmed winter mitts.

I have been out in mid winter scottish conditions and have felt roasty toasty with not even a hit of impending frost nip. The inner glove is good for those ten minutes digging a snow hole or scrape to get out the wind and undoing buckles and ropes.

So yeah I practise what i preach lol.

Gloves inner and outers are vital in the cold. Best way to keep your fingers IMHO.

Originally posted by AGENT_T
Do you have a link for the thermobottle type you use.. make/model?

don't remember what brand we used at army, it was normal commercial thermos. Thermos-botles are not standard issue at finnish army, but I served at northern unit specialiced in arctic combat. So we got civilian market thermos-bottles as special issue. Only thing was that those were mat black painted model.

you should use one made from steel, because those are more durable. Here in finland at least airam sells bottles with glas inside. Those are at my knowledge little better at insulation, but got handle with care sings on them. So steel bottle colds of little faster, but takes lots more beating.

plus get one with insulated cup, don't want to burn your finger's. Allso quicklock on cap is good in haste situations (got couple of those at army. everybody is on pause resting and eating, when we got airstrike alarm. click, bottle is secure and you can throw it on ground, ready to fight. instead off dropping screw capped bottle on the ground and losing your drinks ). only bad side it that quick-lock are harder to clean.

Offcourse get quality brand. Don't get the cheapest 5€ bottle, because in those vacuum is not so good and they cool off twice or more faster than quality ones. good thermos cost here 20-40 €, so that is a bad place to bargain. trust me you dont want to open your thermos and find out drink is not warm. At least good brands at my knowledge are Thermos and Airam (makes allso steel bottles). Don't know much about american brands. Get your hands on outdoor magazines bottle test. there should be info about how well bottles insulate.

And last but not least, TAKE CARE OF YOUR BOTTLE. Means clean it after every use. every. We got couple guys at army, who forgot to empty and clean their thermos after forest camp and throwed it in their closet. berry juice(high sugar level one) in airthight container at room temperature for week. Result, nobody beared to go nearer than 1m, because of the smell. inside was layered with molds. They told the bad side taste didn't wear off after multiple washes.