The Final Nail In The Coffin: Irrefutable Proof the Flight 93 Crash Scene Is a Lie

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Let's imagie you're in something the size of a typical office cubical....how long would it take someone to grab you from behind, by surprise? I

But you keep forgetting about the cockpit doors. Again this had to happen within seconds on ALL 4 PLANES.

If you are sitting at home a someone is breaking in your door do you just sit there or do you try to contact someone for help?

As my sig below states, it's about Physics. Pure and simple. You can not deny this law. PERIOD. You don't have to go far, to find a multitude of pics of crashed airliners and it's wreckage and then match it up with 93 to know something just does NOT match up. Airliners DO NOT disintegrate/vaporize!!!! Wing angle or NOT.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA....I'm just guessing here, but if I were to plan something like this, I would storm through the door when it had been OPENED by someone, in the normal routine of bringing food and beverage up, or a pilot leaving to use the lavatory.

Remember, also.....the doors on the B757 open outward, kinda like the B737. The B767 open inward....

Procedures are very, very different now, and safety is paramount....there will never be a cockpit intrusion again, to this extent.

I am reminded of something from the past, pre-911.....it was a crazed guy (drugged??) on an MD-80, who was attempting to break through the cockpit door....he was stopped by the F/As and some passengers (able-bodied-assistants). Now, even a flimsy MD-80 door....it's the bi-fold type...couldn't be broken through very quickly. We all know that....new doors, impermeable.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I would storm through the door when it had been OPENED by someone, in the normal routine of bringing food and beverage up, or a pilot leaving to use the lavatory.

But that still does not explain how they got into the cockpits so fast on ALL 4 PLANES.

Out of 8 highly trained people not one got off an emergency call or signal. Please explain the odds of that happening.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA....you asked me to please explain, so I'll try to re-explain.

There were ATC tapes that DID record people shouting....this, as transmitted by at least one airplane.

You are sitting there, 'fat, dumb and happy' as the saying goes....not a care in the world, and are suddenly attacked?

There's always a moment of confusion, to assess the situation. You might think, some idiot passenger just came in, what is this? Then the threat is revealed, and it's too late....this is how I can envision it.

Believe me, I sat there imagining how it could have gone down....we all did, we talked about it. It heightened our awareness, and maybe broke a bit of naitivetee....there was a sense of....safety, before. Again, the concept was that most people are either (A) afraid of flying, and dying or (B) would hijack in order to extract money or get a friend out of prison, or just make a Political statement. Guided missiles didn't come to our minds....we felt safe.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
There were ATC tapes that DID record people shouting....this, as transmitted by at least one airplane.

But was this an emergency call ?

There's always a moment of confusion, to assess the situation.

Weren't these highly trained piltos that knew how to react under pressure?

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA....nice try, please read my entire post, especially the part about the hand mics, during the cruise.

See...a guy, with a headset on, might have been about to make a call...had his finger on the PTT switch...during the intrusion....and thus, by instinct, pressed the switch....and it went out on the air, to be taped.

If you're fighting for your lives, last thing on your minds would be telling ATC!!!

Let's examine another example, we'll need to get the NTSB report....it was a FedEx DC-10...three pilots....and a disgruntled pilot who was about to get fired was riding on the 'jumpseat'....which, on FedEx, is a few seats just outside the cockpit, where there is a small galley as well.

Anyway, on a cargo airplane, with other employees hitching a ride....you don't usually close and lock the door. So, this guy, the disgruntled guy, brought a fishing spear and a hatchet on board....his intent was to kill all three pilots, then suicide into the FedEx facility in Memphis, as an act of revenge. (Remember PSA 1771 from 1987?)

SO, be sure to look up the NTSB report on that one, and imagine, then......

Originally posted by weedwhacker So, this guy, the disgruntled guy, brought a fishing spear and a hatchet on board....

From the TV documentary i saw he brought a fishing spear and a hammer.

Even though the pilots and flight engineer were severaly wounded during the fight the pilot still got off an emergency call.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Yes.....but one guy against three....so, a call to ATC.....now, what exactly is the guy sitting in front of a green screen, in a darkened room, going to do?? Well, firstly he will clear traffic....in a declared emergency, the airplane that declared has complete priority. What else can he do???

Then, he will likely get his supervisor to come over, tell him/her....and it gets passed up the line....then what? Call the FBI? Probably.....Call FedEx? Likely.....but, you can't reach up and grab the airplane and save it! It's up to the pilots.

So one, against three....long odds. Two against two???? That's kinda my point....

[edit on 8/25/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
So one, against three....long odds. Two against two???? That's kinda my point....

But giving a hijacking warning would have also let ATC know there were hijackings going on from the start.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Oh....I think I finally am getting your point.

Well, again....ATC knowing that hi-jackings were occuring would accomplish what, exactly?? Please try to stay in the pre 9/11 mindset, when thinking about this.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
[Well, again....ATC knowing that hi-jackings were occuring would accomplish what, exactly?? Please try to stay in the pre 9/11 mindset, when thinking about this.

The time that NORAD was notified would have been sooner. The planes would not have been flying around without being intercepted for so long.



[edit on 25-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


intercepted, and then what?? It happened within the space of less than an hour, from take-over to impact.

Can you imagine the outcry, if all four had been shot down?? AND, it's not likely that a shoot-down order could have been approved, just because of a hi-jacking!!!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Can you imagine the outcry, if all four had been shot down?? AND, it's not likely that a shoot-down order could have been approved, just because of a hi-jacking!!!

So you would have rather 3,000 people die then 200 on the planes? I know its a tough thing to do but it would have saved a lot of lives.

So what are you going to do when i get an unclassified government document that states FLight 93 was intercepted, debunking the official story that no planes got near FLight 93.

Also there is a follow on report that states 1 plane came back without a missile.

Please try to stay in the pre 9/11 mindset, when thinking about this.

I am.

Transponders and hijack codes were around long before 9/11 (as you should know).

With them knowing to be alert to a hijacking, it would be easy for the pilot to either squawk the hijack code and/or just hit the PTT to call ATC and let them know of a potential hijack.

I don't know a single pilot who would just sit there and do nothing.

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


reply to mirage....again, most of us took our headsets off, and used hand mics, at cruise altitude. Grabbing the PTT isn't going to be the first thing that comes to mind if two guys are attacking you, while you sitting, seatbelted, in your seat.

To ULTIMA....I forgot, will edit....

Oh....well, at the time of course....the first two, being off topic, but part of 9/11 lore, AAL11 and UAL175 (both B767s).....those two hits were....hard to say it....better co-ordinated, time-wise.

Just mere minutes apart....the 'normal'....I should say 'common strategy' at the time was....a lot of confusion.

Look....to a normal controller, based on his experience, he'd lose VHF all the time....a pilot misses a freg change....the transponder fails....it wasn't cause for alarm, at first.....because we all know what to do when NORDO.

So, to expand....a controller loses VHF....so he gets on the landline to the next sector controller, to see if THAT controller has the airplane. BUT, while he's doing that, the data block drops off his screen....

The usual response is, keep trying to call the flight. He may think it's a total electrical failure, he doesn't know!!!

Controllers are briefed that even a total electrical failure will mean the #1VHF still works.....the transponder is NOT on the Standby Bus!

See, there is ample time for confusion and....later....disbelief....and then....awareness to set in.

BUT, we know.....there was no electrical failure....when the data block is lost, the transponder has either failed, or has been physically switched to 'STBY'

Two, at once.....unprecedented, and communications between the ground facilities are confused.....the military was alerted, but they were just as confused.....

This all happening within a matter of, what? An hour? So many people, on the ground....confused....

I can imagine at least someone asking...."Did they squawk XXXX?" And getting a 'no' answer....

They asked airplanes in the vicinity, 'What do you see?'

They heard dis-jointed reports, from other pilots, of the transmissions accidentally on the air....

This was NOT Hollywood......

[edit on 8/27/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
They heard dis-jointed reports, from other pilots, of the transmissions accidentally on the air....

This was NOT Hollywood......

And this could have been avoided if any of the pilots woud have taken a few seconds to set the transponder code to hjack as soon as the hijackers entered the cockpit.


Well actually all of this could have been avoided if the aiports would have been on higher security from all the warnings we had about hijackings.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Excellent post WW!

Thanks for the inside information. I've read on other forums from other professional pilots, and that all are saying exactly what you are. People seem to have this mindset that storming a cockpit pre-9/11 would take these super ninjas and stuff, and that the pilots 1st instinct is to reach over, code in some warning, rather than help your co-pilot/friend who might be getting stabbed.

I would not want to be a co-pilot in a plane with some of those people.

Originally posted by gavron Thanks for the inside information. I've read on other forums from other professional pilots, and that all are saying exactly what you are.

Please post the number of hijacked planes that have not made an emergency call or signal when hijacked.

Post the odds of 4 planes not getting off 1 call or signal.

Also why 8 professional pilots could not get off an emergecy call or signal.

reply to post by weedwhacker

This all happening within a matter of, what? An hour? So many people, on the ground....confused....

I can imagine at least someone asking...."Did they squawk XXXX?" And getting a 'no' answer....

They asked airplanes in the vicinity, 'What do you see?'

They heard dis-jointed reports, from other pilots, of the transmissions accidentally on the air....

This was NOT Hollywood......

You're right - it isn't.

It was the 4th hijacking that day - they'd already be alert. Anything that disappeared or deviated from its flight plan at that point would be considered suspect immediately.

EDIT: You think civilian controllers are the only ones watching the airspace?

[edit on 27-8-2008 by mirageofdeceit]