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God and freewill?

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posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:32 AM
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Is it possible to have free will and the typical concept(christian) of god? If god is all knowing and omnipotent then he has control over and knows everything that is ever going to happen. Doesn't this destroy the concept of freewill? Lets define this better so that we are all on the same page:

Omnipotent
1 often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence
3 obsolete : ARRANT
- omnipotently adverb

Omnipotent
adj.
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.
One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
Omnipotent God. Used with the.

There is a definition from two different sources. So omnipotent means complete control and knowledge over everything. This would mean over all space as well as the past and the future. If this is the case then god already knows everything that is going to happen which means that every event is already set in stone. So if god is omnipotent, then human freewill is an illusion.

Now lets look at Freewill:
Main Entry: freewill
Pronunciation: 'frE-"wil
Function: adjective
: VOLUNTARY, SPONTANEOUS :

Voluntary:
1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent
2 : unconstrained by interference : SELF-DETERMINING
3 : done by design or intention : INTENTIONAL
4 : of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will
5 : having power of free choice
6 : provided or supported by voluntary action
7 : acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation

Spontaneous
1 : proceeding from natural feeling or native tendency without external constraint
2 : arising from a momentary impulse
3 : controlled and directed internally : SELF-ACTING
4 : produced without being planted or without human labor : INDIGENOUS
5 : developing without apparent external influence, force, cause, or treatment
6 : not apparently contrived or manipulated : NATURAL

Well, just look at that! Freewill goes completely against the idea of an all powerful god. So either there is no conscious god or we have no freewill.

What are your thoughts on this?




posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:36 AM
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Jeez, this always comes up...OK.

Yes, God should know everything we're going to do from the moment we are born, and should know it before we are born. But, does knowledge of what we are going to do equate to forcing us to do it? If you see two cars driving down the road, and you know they are going to crash into eachother, does that mean that you caused the crash?



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:39 AM
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Well if we are all one with God then in fact we are actually obeying our own will, which is also God's. That makes sense to me, although I'm not a believer but I'm trying to make sense of it for you.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by Esoterica
Yes, God should know everything we're going to do from the moment we are born, and should know it before we are born. But, does knowledge of what we are going to do equate to forcing us to do it? If you see two cars driving down the road, and you know they are going to crash into eachother, does that mean that you caused the crash?


If I created the cars and the drivers and the situation, then yes.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Jonna
If I created the cars and the drivers and the situation, then yes.


Well, then that's where we differ in opinion. If I created a driver with free will, then knowing what choices the dirver will make does not itself cause me to make those choices for him.

But at points like this, the discussion really comes down to what you believe, which means we're not going to be changing eachother's mind any time soon. So you can believe what ytou wish to, and I will believe what I do.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by John Nada
Well if we are all one with God then in fact we are actually obeying our own will, which is also God's.


That is an interesting idea, but I remember many christians being offended by the idea of god as I in another thread. Also if we are one with god, why would some choose not to obey themselves?



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Jonna
Is it possible to have free will and the typical concept(christian) of god? If god is all knowing and omnipotent then he has control over and knows everything that is ever going to happen. Doesn't this destroy the concept of freewill? Lets define this better so that we are all on the same page:


You got it all wrong.
God can see the future, but he chooses not too.
This same question came to me about two years or so ago and I asked people about it and I came up with this answer.









[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Eternal]



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by Eternal
You got it all wrong.
God can see the future, but he chooses not too.


And you know this because god told you? It is is just your theory, then how do you know that it is true? Don't get me wrong, this thread is not intended to pointlessly argue. I just do not logically see how you can have god and freewill in the same realm and I am confused by people that believe in both. My personal opinions on what the god thing is have no relevence on this thread. I am just trying to reasonably understand others viewpoints.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:09 AM
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It's a good question, but I'm afraid there isn't any answer to it. The problem is that we try to answer the question with logic, but since Kurt Godel, we know logic really can't answer questions so huge as "the nature of God" -- which we conceive to be infinite. The limits of logic intervene. But if we don't use logic, how can we know that we are making sense?

If you have an epiphanic experience, you'll know that you can't really describe it. You can use words to give an impression of it, but there just aren't any words to convey the experience as it was.

I've had one, and from that experience I've come to believe that God, who is really, really cool, would not simply give you the appearance of free will, he'd give you the real thing. And he'd not disrespect you so much as to trick you about it. The reason God isn't shouting at you "believe in me!" is because he respects you. He wants you to believe and do what you are lead to by being who you are.

Anyway, mainline Christianity has it wrong, but so does every other organized religion. It's impossible to get it right. So you go where you need to go, you know?

"In my father's house are many mansions.."



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:30 AM
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I just do not logically see how you can have god and freewill in the same realm


Yes, free will is an illusion at God's level, he does know everything that is going to happen, even our "free will", it isn't that hard to believe if u believe in God. But u can't deny that we hav free will, which is a very important thing indeed (on our level of course) - i think that makes sense probably doesn't.


[Edited on 3-3-2004 by pommy_g]



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:31 AM
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Could it be that god knows everything. Knows the outcome of every decision we make. But allows us the freewill to make choices as we go along in life. But the outcome of whatever path we follow is already known.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by nyeff
Could it be that god knows everything. Knows the outcome of every decision we make. But allows us the freewill to make choices as we go along in life. But the outcome of whatever path we follow is already known.


See if god already knows what is going to happen then there is only one possible future and if such is the case then we do not have the choice to change it thus freewill is an illusion.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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Yes Nyeff.


God knows what will happen and when and he guides us along those who are searching for him, but he will not force us to do anything. Just bcause he knows our outcome means nothing because we do not know
our outcome. Instead of worying what our outcome is and wondering what it is, God gives us plenty of oppertunities to creat our own outcome by growing with him an becoming his children.


The main point is, is that just because he knows everything does not mean free will ceases, ths is basic common sense. if you don't believeme then do whateer you want after your off the computer and you will see that its up to you.


jonna, you do not know though do you?

peace.

[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Truth]



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:47 AM
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I had a few further thoughts..

The gnostics believed that the "God" of the Bible was really an inferior creature who did not realize his status. He thought he was God, but he wasn't. And he was tyrannical and perhaps not so intelligent.. This was the guy who created us, according to the gnostics. So he would have had imperfect knowledge. The gnostics thought, in fact, he "botched" the job of creation, and it has been the business of the "higher God" to set things right ever since.

That's just to put the "all knowing" fellow one rung further up the ladder, though.

There is also the theory of "multiple worlds" in which everything that could possibly happen, does happen on one of a great many (though not infinite) number of worlds. So the question of what "you" will do at any given moment of choice is answered with "everything you possibly could." But this really voids the idea of identity and is extremely messy..

However, suppose that God had all these possible world states mapped out in his mind (which, actually, we happen to live in..) and so therefor he does know all things, but as it happens, he willingly suspends, or radically limits his foreknowledge of what choices you will make? One thing to know about God is that he is steadfast. If he made a rule whereby he wouldn't pry into your freewill, he won't break it.

This is getting close to simply a restatement of the original problem, but the thought that guides me is that if God had wanted free willed individuals who grew free of his interference, he'd make it possible for that to happen.

In the normal Christian-philosophical statement of God and his abilities (reflected so well in John Milton's Paradies Lost ("if I foreknew, still I made him just") the problem always remains that God would have created people who he knew he would damn.

Nobody thinks that is a good thing. I certainly don't.

My experience left me believing that God doesn't ever give up on anybody. So I've provisionally accepted the idea that reincarnation (which has a lot of scientific support, believe it or not) must be part of the picture. But we aren't meant to know that..

We have freewill, we can do what we want, but the laws of karma are rigged in the sense that it's a slippery slope leading in one ultimate direction -- right to the realm of God. Kind of a modified Omega Point Theory, but there you are..



[Edited on 3-3-2004 by Sidhe]



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:50 AM
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Genesis 2:15-17

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

God gives us many examples of our freedom of choice. He gives us his law but ultimately we have freewill to choose which path we follow. God said to Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge, but they were seduced by the words of evil and decided to eat the fruit.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:51 AM
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No....it would be many differant futures. He would know the outcome of all of them,but gives us the freewill to decide what future we are going to make.
It like like driving down the road,then you come upon 100,000 differant splits in the road. So you choose 1 follow it for awhile then come upon 100,00 other splits in the road. So you follow another for awhile,and on and they go. You make the decision everytime you come to a new path. It is not made for you. At the end of every road,at the end of every choice you/we make god would know the outcome. But it is you that decides which path to take.


[Edited on 3/3/2004 by nyeff]



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by nyeff

It like like driving down the road,then you come upon 100,000 differant splits in the road. So you choose 1 follow it for awhile then come upon 100,00 other splits in the road. So you follow another for awhile,and on and they go. You make the decision everytime you come to a new path. It is not made for you.
[Edited on 3/3/2004 by nyeff]


There's a slight problem with this, which is, before God created you he would have known where you would end up.

So here's the question. Say you were an artist, and you knew that you could create fifteen masterpieces and a thousand pieces of crap. You knew this before you even picked up your paintbrush.

Why would you make the crap?



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 10:59 AM
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irrelevant.

you don't know this before hand so it doesnt matter.



peace.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Truth
The main point is, is that just because he knows everything does not mean free will ceases, ths is basic common sense.


Common sense is based on logic and I see none in that statement. If god created everything to be the way that it is and knows the outcome of everything then man is destined to do what god created him to do and thus does not control his own destiny.



jonna, you do not know though do you?


I suppose not as I do not understand the question. Know what? Again it seems that I need to state that I am not attacking anyone's beliefs; I am just trying to understand the thoughts of others.



posted on Mar, 3 2004 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Truth

irrelevant.

you don't know this before hand so it doesnt matter.



But it does matter since it voilates our conception of God as "all good." If God is all good, then how could he create the murderers and rapists and other monsters who prey on the innocent? He knew they would do it and he made them anyway. We recognize that makers are implicated in evil when we make laws that hold them accountable for their creations. So cigarette companies, car manufacturers, and so on, are legally liable when they knowingly create things that hurt people.

If you believe law springs ultimately from God, then you must see the contradiction. We've indicted God as a criminal! This cannot be the case, therefor, God didn't create any monsters. Then how did the monsters come to be?

No amount of arguing from logic is going to solve this problem. It has been argued for thousands of years.



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