Thoughts on Time Travel

Hello all,I figured I would make a new thread to explore the various members thoughts on time travel-Is it possible?How can it be done?Do we already have the technology?

Also can you travel in BOTH the PAST and Future?

Does anyone have any ideas,or(fingers crossed)machines they are working on?

I have contemplated this many times and since I am going to Minor in Theoretical Astrophysics I am interested in ways you all think this could be achieved,as I have always had a dream of building a FTL or Time Travel craft.

I want to mention "Witnessfromafar" as he started a thread on "Thoughts on exotic propulsion"which gave me the idea to create this thread-since time travel is parallel to FTL.Heres his thread:Thoughts on exotic propulsion

First let's look at "What is time?"

Time is a basic component of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects. Time has been a major subject of religion, philosophy, and science, but defining time in a non-controversial manner applicable to all fields of study has consistently eluded the greatest scholars.

In physics and other sciences, time is considered one of the few fundamental quantities.[2] Time is used to define other quantities – such as velocity – and defining time in terms of such quantities would result in circularity of definition.[3] An operational definition of time, wherein one says that observing a certain number of repetitions of one or another standard cyclical event (such as the passage of a free-swinging pendulum) constitutes one standard unit such as the second, has a high utility value in the conduct of both advanced experiments and everyday affairs of life. The operational definition leaves aside the question whether there is something called time, apart from the counting activity just mentioned, that flows and that can be measured. Investigations of a single continuum called space-time brings the nature of time into association with related questions into the nature of space, questions that have their roots in the works of early students of natural philosophy.

Among prominent philosophers, there are two distinct viewpoints on time. One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence. Sir Isaac Newton subscribed to this realist view, and hence it is sometimes referred to as Newtonian time.[4][5] The opposing view is that time does not refer to any kind of "container" that events and objects "move through", nor to any entity that "flows", but that it is instead part of a fundamental intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which humans sequence and compare events. This second view, in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz[6] and Immanuel Kant,[7][8] holds that time is neither an event nor a thing, and thus is not itself measurable.

Temporal measurement has occupied scientists and technologists, and was a prime motivation in navigation and astronomy. Periodic events and periodic motion have long served as standards for units of time. Examples include the apparent motion of the sun across the sky, the phases of the moon, the swing of a pendulum, and the beat of a heart. Currently, the international unit of time, the second, is defined as a certain number of hyperfine transitions in caesium atoms (see below). Time is also of significant social importance, having economic value ("time is money") as well as personal value, due to an awareness of the limited time in each day and in human lifespans.

Wiki/Time

Now,what is space?

Space is the property of the universe[1] in which matter is physically extended and objects have positions relative to one another[2].

In classical mechanics, space was originally treated as being separate from time and is thought of as one of the few fundamental physical quantities. In Isaac Newton's view space was absolute, and held that it exists permanently and independently of whether there is any matter in the space or moving through it[3].

In mathematics spaces with different geometries and numbers of dimensions are described, and this is used in modern physics where both space and time are to be thought of as part of the boundless four-dimensional continuum known as space-time. From the experimental support for Albert Einstein's theory of relativity scientists now find that space and time cannot be entirely separated. In addition, space is found to have physical properties[4] including intrinsic curvature which varies according to mass distribution. Therefore it was Einstein's view that space and matter cannot be entirely separated either.

Among physicists and philosophers there is disagreement regarding whether space is itself an entity, or is part of a conceptual framework.

Wiki/Space

Now lets look at some theorized ideas:For the sake of saving space on the thread I will refer you to this link:Time Travel

**Here is a brief excerpt:

Time travel is the concept of moving between different moments in time in a manner analogous to moving between different points in space, either sending objects (or in some cases just information) backwards in time to a moment before the present, or sending objects forward from the present to the future without the need to experience the intervening period (at least not at the normal rate). Some interpretations of time travel also suggest that traveling backwards in time might take one to a parallel universe whose history could begin to diverge from the traveler's original history after the moment the traveler arrived in the past.[1] Although time travel has been a common plot device in fiction since the 19th century, and one-way travel into the future is arguably possible given the phenomenon of time dilation based on velocity in the theory of special relativity (exemplified by the twin paradox) as well as gravitational time dilation in the theory of general relativity, it is currently unknown whether the laws of physics would allow backwards time travel. Any technological device, whether fictional or hypothetical, that is used to achieve two-way time travel is known as a time machine.

My take on it...
If we could do it... we wouldn't be talking about it... so me thinks there is a wrinkle in the space time continuim - that prevents time travel -- even, though it is possible, just not feasible ...
I think it is tied to the Soul being unable to exist in duplicate... just a thought

I think the key to past time travel already is apparent,ie;when we look at the stars in the night sky.........I think if we can bend light enough to create a "gravitational lensing effect" we can atleast SEE into the past,I reference the movie "Deja Vu"that seems like a probable way to achieve this.


Since light is informaton,why can't we bend light waves and particles to "rewind" the track so to say.

I know the science I have looked it over and yes, the math says its possible. however, if we had the techonoly we would not make mistakes. and clearly there is enough mistakes to destroy the planet. if we could undo the damage then I would not know about the instance - at all.
I think we are containers of Love - the more we have the better life is the less we have well take a look out side... I see no love...

Well,I agree time travel would be a very serious and responsible technology.

I don't see many uses for it except to avert an imminent disaster or for pleasure purposes....possibly or historical reasons.


Bu also you are correct in that we would not know if our timeline has been changed.

I for one,however would ike the chance t go back and change some things in MY life.......But again the possible consequences are so grave.


But that's not the point of this thread..........it is to examine possible technologies to achieve time travel.

Spacetime is a kind of loose construct that is a result of consciousness interacting with probability to select between various virtual states.

And things also pop in and out of this particular spacetime reality construction all the time -- photonic fluctuations bubbling around at zero point accounts for most of it, although I've never seen anybody place a limit on the amount or size of "bubbles" that can occur.

So, it might not be too difficult to imagine that it could be possible for a thing (a consciousness, most likely) to basically encapsulate itself in a quantum bubble pulled external to the spacetime we all know and love, then drop itself back in at a different point. The shift in both distance and time would be instantaneous, since the bubble would be outside of the usual construct.

I've heard that's how some UFOs work. They work with the consciousnesses of the pilots and amplify it in some way (like amplifying your imagination, or point-of-view), which then allows the craft to pop outside of normal spacetime, then be re-integrated into normal spacetime at the time and place imagined by the pilots.

That solves the problem of reality becoming more chaotic the farther in the past and the future you get from the consciousness that defines the present. See, spacetime is kind of like this (although it has many more dimensions than just these two):



... with the center of the image as "now." The farther away you get from now, whether it's in the past or future or along any dimensional line, the more probabilities add up to create chaotic uncertainty. But if you can pull yourself out of the picture, like you are right now by looking at the image, then you can rotate or move outside it an put yourself back down into it at any point, with no concern about temporal chaotic decay.

At least that's the way I figure it. Now, how a machine can work to amplify a consciousness is anybody's guess. Mimicking brain processes artificially, perhaps?



[edit on 8-5-2008 by Nohup]

Originally posted by Nohup
Spacetime is a kind of loose construct that is a result of consciousness interacting with probability to select between various virtual states.

And things also pop in and out of this particular spacetime reality construction all the time -- photonic fluctuations bubbling around at zero point accounts for most of it, although I've never seen anybody place a limit on the amount or size of "bubbles" that can occur.

So, it might not be too difficult to imagine that it could be possible for a thing (a consciousness, most likely) to basically encapsulate itself in a quantum bubble pulled external to the spacetime we all know and love, then drop itself back in at a different point. The shift in both distance and time would be instantaneous, since the bubble would be outside of the usual construct.

I've heard that's how some UFOs work. They work with the consciousnesses of the pilots and amplify it in some way (like amplifying your imagination, or point-of-view), which then allows the craft to pop outside of normal spacetime, then be re-integrated into normal spacetime at the time and place imagined by the pilots.

That solves the problem of reality becoming more chaotic the farther in the past and the future you get from the consciousness that defines the present. See, spacetime is kind of like this (although it has many more dimensions than just these two):

... with the center of the image as "now." The farther away you get from now, whether it's in the past or future or along any dimensional line, the more probabilities add up to create chaotic uncertainty. But if you can pull yourself out of the picture, like you are right now by looking at the image, then you can rotate or move outside it an put yourself back down into it at any point, with no concern about temporal chaotic decay.

At least that's the way I figure it. Now, how a machine can work to amplify a consciousness is anybody's guess. Mimicking brain processes artificially, perhaps?

[edit on 8-5-2008 by Nohup]

Great post,starred.............Ive' neve beenable to construct a way the supposed "alien navigation and propulsion"workd with he mind.............bt mabe they amplifed the minds ower.............or usd their mind to process the TRLLIONS of GIGABYTES of information required for FTL travel.Is it possible they use some kindof "gravitational well"to propogate a subspace bubble or wormhole?

Excellent thread, and thank you for the fine compliment
This is my first visit to skunkworks, and it's a pleasure to participate here.

I've also given this topic much thought, and the mechanism that seems most likely to provide success IMHO would be to use two black holes, and to rotate them against one another.

At the risk of being flamed (and as a disclaimer, I'm not a 'believer' in this story, but I'm not convinced it isn't true either...) I'll mention the John Titor story. This (while possibly a hoax) is the most realistic story of time travel I've seen mentioned, and I mostly feel this way because it involves the above mentioned mechanism. Here is a link to some of the science behind Titor's story, for those who are not aware of it:
www.johntitor.com...

I highly suggest giving Titor's posts a read. It's an entertaining story if nothing else.

The physics behind Titor's alleged time travel device are best described here:
"Another type of black hole, called a Kerr hole, is also theoretically possible. Kerr holes are rotating black holes that could be used as portals for time travel or travel to parallel universes. In 1963, New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr proposed the first realistic theory for a rotating black hole. In his theory, dying stars would collapse into a rotating ring of neutrons that would produce sufficient centrifugal force to prevent the formation of a singularity. Since the black hole would not have a singularity, Kerr believed it would be safe to enter it without being crushed by the infinite gravitational force at its center.

If Kerr holes do exist, it might be possible to pass through them and exit out of a "white" hole. A white hole would have the reverse action of a black hole. So, instead of pulling everything into its gravitational force, it would use some sort of exotic matter with negative energy to push everything out and away from it. These white holes would be our way to enter other times or other worlds."
Source: science.howstuffworks.com...

We've now been able to figure out how to create artificial black holes in miniature at CERN, via the (under construction currently) LHC. Here is the theory:
cerncourier.com...

and here is a link to Titor's original thread:
www.anomalies.net...

At any rate, we as Humans are not quite there yet when it comes to being able to test Titor's story. But we're close, and it looks possible as an application if the theory holds.

Using this method though, you would not be able to travel to your own past. I know that sounds strange, and the explanation is lengthy and complicated, but essentially you would be travelling into the past within an alternate universe (or a parallel universe). Titor claimed about a 2% divergence rate (2% of things in our reality that he claimed to be visiting, were different than his own reality's past).

Close enough for most applications. The real question though is, will you be returning to your own reality on the return trip? Or will you be returning to an alternate future as well? In Titor's view, this was unimportant, as he would be returning to save one version of his future, if not another, and he postulated that it was likely that an alternate Titor would show up in his own reality instead of him.

At any rate, for a working mechanism, I'd say this theory is our best bet.
My 2 Cents

Great thread JKrog, star and flag from me!

-WFA

video.google.com...

here is food for thought on the subject

reply to post by Nohup


Some insightful stuff there...

Something interesting to note is that often times in UFO sightings, people mention how it was bright, but the light didn't have an effect on it's surroundings. I think this may be due to the UFO being present in our space, but still holding onto a distant time frame of reference. As if it's not really traveling through the universe to get here, but rather by projection... and I think consciousness does indeed have a part to play in this.

This is based on my idea that the effects of light are delayed which I go more into detail here.

As far as time travel, I thought about this recently and came to the conclusion that by traveling through time you'd basically create a copy of your universe. The act of time traveling may also be as simple as changing what you see... since you wouldn't really be traveling at all, just changing the image of the universe. That is, if you could "will yourself" to see things differently than they appear instantly.

I think that the ideas that John Titor expressed in his posts are possibly the correct explanation of time travel. now, before anyone shouts me down im not referring to the two kerr black holes idea or the wayout suitcase time machine etc etc etc .....

I do subscribe to the idea that if we do move through time it will be into a different reality/dimension which could be slightly different from our own by something as small as a single misplaced atom or something bigger like in one reality you have 2 sugars in your coffee and in the other you have none (there could be better analogies but i cant be bothered to think of anything better)

I also think that Titors description of causeality is possible in that if you travel back to a different reality and make a change you will have to stay on that time line to see the effects in the future. Traveling forward again wont take you to your original reality but to another that is similar to the one you left. you will never get back to your original reality in other words.

Dimensional shifts and time travel has been done Nickola Tesla himself warned the United States government about the dangers and suggested them a Zero-point bracelet in the Philadelphia Experiment yet they didnt listen and then people are _DIEING_.

By now our government has time travel down to a tee, but they still cannot change what they've already done and if they were to wan't to change anything it'd only be for the worst.

Here is my opinion of time travel. I believe the "elite" Government has had this technology for some time now and is using it to prevent any big events. Think of it besides 911 we have never experienced anything.. I believe 911 was allowed to happen to give the "elite" government more power... But that being said we have never had an "event" in this country. Think of how easy it would be for some nut to get a home made bomb, drive into some busy area and detinate it.. It never happens! Anyone wonder why? There are a lot of crazy nuts willing to do it but they never do.. Happens in other contries but never ours. This has always intrigued me. I wonder (for the math genius out there) what the odds are that our country has never experienced any of these things. I don't know if they can transport bodies back and forth but I believe they can do it with information. Just another nugget to chew on..

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


It never happens? Well it sure happened in Oklahoma City.

Let me tell you a secret. Time doesn't exist. Its only usefull as a tool for measurement on a graph. Much like an inch, centimeter, or liter - it is a imaginary concept used as a useful measurement tool. It is a man-made concept and nothing more. Time travel doesn't exist because the only difference between "the past" or "the present" is simply states of mattter.

Every subatomic particle that exists today existed in "the past" and will continue in "the future" to exist, although not exactly in the same location. In that mannor of speaking we are concurrently in "the past," "the present," and "the future" simultaniously. No "time travel" is possible.

I know some of you would reply that time is proven to exist by astronauts and such. The phenomenon they experience IS real however the conclusion reached as to what has happened is quite flawed. Their "time" isn't moving at a different rate than our down here on earth, but rather their matter does not move at quite the same rate. Why? Consider that in space they do not have exactly the same amount of forces (both weak and strong) acting upon their own subatomic particles.

I don't have "time" to explain further but hopefully you get the idea.

reply to post by JOINTHERESISTANCE


Interesting thoughts!

I never figured out a minor detail of time travel: how do we know for sure that we don't travel into a building or a fly? What happens to the atoms that occupied the space that we traveled to? They can't simply disappear?