The Third Temple:Prepare for the 7 year tribulation people

I would suggest that the few grateful Jews and the few fervent Christian-Zionists who are intent & determined to build a bricks and mortar Temple
~ are that small 'Party' mentioned by an earlier post (?page 8 ?) ~

The Rev Hagee is just One staunch leader in pressing for Israeli supremacy, [aka Zionism], and has Presidential hopeful Sen. McCains' ear & followship.
Hagee & other pastors are a driving force for such businesses like TempleInstitute which envision a rebuilt Temple so as to literally fufill eschatology.

I suppose that the Temple controversy will continue to get press coverage and Christian-zionist zealotry at least until the 70th anniversary of the founding of Israel (2018)
and remain a hot topic until 70 years after the 1967 (2037) war when all of Jerusalem was finally absorbed into the still partial state of 'Greater Israel'.

And a tradition of like minded, undamentalist-zionist preachers will continue to inspire their flocks to support Israel ~at any cost~, for the reason of creating the prophecised set of circumstances which will set the stage for the return of Christ...
not unlike how President Ahmadineajad sees himself as helping to create the necessary chaos which causes the 12 Imam, the Mahdi, to return.



?how can we westerners tolerate the neocons, Christian-zionists, who are intent on causing strife in the middle east in their quest to manipulate the Anglo-American empire for the purpose of making Biblical prophecy transpire (as they interpet it to be)
While at the same time Demonizing Iran...their present leaders, also Syria and everyone/anyone in the middle east who are in opposition to Israeli hegemony, and are themselves attempting to manipulate events so that the Mahdi who together with the Prophet Jesus need to come for the rescue of mankind ?


bottom line; the Temple issue is also another product of the illuminati elites

Originally posted by jdl79
How ever I am not completely convinced that it is accurate, as man in himself since the establishment of the modern church has been causing what you would call abominations. The simple greed that runs through many modern church leaders could be considered an abomination by that definition, as they pillage wallets in the name of God and charity only to pocket the money themselves.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't believe these type of people were truly ever part of the church of God, though they may even think they are. Notice that the son of perdition exalts himself above God, just as Lucifer did.....

ISAIAH 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

That verse is almost a mirror of what Paul says the Son of perdition will do. Lucifer was once a loyal servant of God, but the position of power he was in went to his head, and it became all about himself. It wasn't about money, it was about power, pride, deluding himself into thinking he knew better than God. His actions also led astray one third of the angels, a great falling away within the angelic realm. This is also another hint I believe that shows us the patern of how the Son of Perdition was to behave. The very term Son of Perdtion itself hints at this. Perdtion in the greek is apoleia, which means destruction, (the son of destruction, or son of the destroyer, another name for Satan)

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Apollyon means a destroyer, or the destoryer. I don't mean to say that the son of perdition will be a literal son of satan, just symbolically, just as Christ called those who rejected what he had to say the sons of the devil (John 8:44). But one thing to remember also is that the first son of perdition, Judas Iscariot, was said to have had satan enter into him...

JOHN 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Originally posted by jdl79
Daniel also states he will boast great things against the most high and exalt himself and claim to be God. John confirms this when he states the false prophet causes all to worship him. Now before we get to deep into who or how the false prophet is, according to the way we are to interpret scripture as laid out in Daniel with Nebudchanezzars dream, a beast represents both a king and a kingdom. So to state the false prophet is simply a religous leader or the son of perdition is simply a religous leader is a huge misinterpretation. As John describes both as beasts. As such no religous leader has the ability to pass or instate law, such as would be needed to require a mark. Are you familiar with all that has happened within the EU? Do you know anything of the UNs Aliance of Civilizations?

I understand what you are saying that the beast is a kingdom, but I don't believe the son of perdition and the beast are the same thing, for this very reason. I agree the beast is a kingdom, and I agree it is formed out of the EU, with the Roman church being the woman riding the beast. I believe this church is where the false prophet comes out of, being the Pope.

The beast is a kingdom, the son of perdition is said to be a man...

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

...and only somebody in the church could cause a great falling away, and when we're talking changing spiritual laws, a church leader is the prime person. Paul makes it quite clear that every time he mentions the temple of God in every other verse, that he is talking of the church, and now he says this man will sit in the temple of God, and cause a great falling away.

For Paul to even call something the temple of God, it would have to refer to where God dwells. God would not dwell in a building which in essence is a giant symbol of the rejection of christ and his sacrifice, which is what the temple the jews want to build would be, just as God can not dwell in those who reject Christ. That would be like calling Richard Dawkins the temple of God. Paul states over and over exactly where God dwells, and that is in his church, so for Paul to say that a man will come and sit in the temple and raise himself up above God, I personally would think it should be clear exactly what Paul is saying.

Enjoying this conversation by the way

What I think is no one christian or other can help prophcy come true. They will come to pass as God will intended. I dont think anyone should strive to bring revelations to come true. cuz they cant. For god is controll and it will come to pass as god's will intends.

As for God's in dwellin in the church or the God's chilren. The bible teaches us that our body is the temple of God. For God spirit is in us. What is God's church? the people or the building. What is worth more the building or the people who run in. I tell you that God's spirit lays in those who trully believe in him. and God and be present in the church too. For where one or two more are I am there also.

reply to post by St Udio


thats a stretch...mentioning the Illuminati...first prove the existence of such an organization then prove they are behind a 2000+ year old quest to fullfill prophecy...thats quite a statement with ZERO validity


but hey who knows, right? maybe thats the vehicle God would use to accomplish what needs done...who really knows

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ya im glad i started this thread...very good conversation and opinions!

reply to post by doctorex


Hey Doc yup you are correct...Christ died for his own people and Gentiles...his wish is to have all Jews become Christian, thats his big mission....and yes the blood offering will further push them from Christ, as Christ was the last Lamb of the slaughter and there-fore dissolved the 'law'...BUT this is all part of his glorious return.

reply to post by GodMode


Yes, people keep telling me why there needs to be a temple to fullfill prophecy before Christ can return, but I'm trying to explain that we need to understand exactly what the temple of God is since the death of Christ. To to do that we need to let scripture interpret scripture, and over and over again throughout the new testament, the temple of God is said to be the body of Christ, the church, the congregation, those who God dwells in, it is no longer a physical building, it is now spirtual, but people seem intent on focusing on the physical side of things, just like nicodemus in John chapter 3, just like the jews laughed at Christ when he said he would destroy the temple and raise it in three days, they didn't get what he was saying, their minds were too focused on the physcial. If Christ says we need to come out of Egypt, he is not telling us to come out of physical Egypt, what he is telling us is spiritual, to come out of sin, the same goes with coming out of Babylon, it is not talking about physical babylon, but I think I've tried to explain it in every way possible, without luck, so I think I'll just leave it at that.

reply to post by doctorex


I agree, but once again we're talking of two separate issues, the body(church) of Christ and the Temple itself. Both are clearly distinguished in scripture. Now, the Temple must be erected once again for the third and final time for the blood offerings to once again begin, this will all culminate with the defiling by the Son of Perdition so on and so forth....now as Christians, we know that Christs Church is his people. Of which he will Rapture according to scripture prior to "Armageddon" or the battle of Meggido.

I totally agree with you, we're just speaking of two separate elements of the Bible. The Temple will once again become the focus of worship for all Jews worldwide, this is key in the final days of written history.

Originally posted by GodMode
I agree, but once again we're talking of two separate issues, the body(church) of Christ and the Temple itself. Both are clearly distinguished in scripture. Now, the Temple must be erected once again for the third and final time for the blood offerings to once again begin, this will all culminate with the defiling by the Son of Perdition so on and so forth....

But Paul said the church was the temple of God, so if then paul goes on to give a prophecy concerning the son of perdition and the temple of God, it should be clear what he is talking about, he is talking about what he is always talking about when discussing the temple of God, which is the church. As for the sacrifices starting again, I presume you are talking of the prophecy in daniel 9 that says that a the messiah will come, a new covernant will be confirmed and the sacrifices will be stopped, but this has already happened, this is what happened on the passover day nearly 2000 years ago. Christ confirmed his covenant with the many during the passover meal, and the very next day at his death the veil in the physical temple was torn, signifying the end of the need for the physical temple and the end of the sacrifices. Note that the prophecy is concerning the coming of the messiah.....

Daniel 2:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Now remember this whole prophecy has been talking about the coming of the messiah....

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is talking about the coming of and work of the messiah, him confirming his covenant (Matthew 26:28) being cut-off (killed) but not forhimself (he died for us) and in the middle of the of the week (after his 3 1/2 year ministry) the need for the sacrifices would cease. This has all been fullfilled, no temple needs to be built to fullfill this prophecy, even though some like to twist this prophecy to be talking about some "antichrist" and the setting up of 7 year peace treaty with the current nation-state of Israel, but nothing of the sort is mentioned. The whole prophecy is talking about the 70 weeks that would transpire from the proclamation until the coming of the messiah, and the work he would perform. There are no unfullfilled prophecies that say a temple must be built for the jews at the end-time. I know we are simply talking about seperate things, and this my point, we shouldn't have to, the prophecies concerning the end time and the temple of God are concering exactly that, the temple of God, which is now the church. Anything else, including a physical temple, even if it is built by the jews, is not and never will be the temple of God, and would not be referred to as such in the word of God, even if such a future building were to be rmentioned in prophecy, it would be referred to as exactly what it would be, and that is simply a jewish synagogue, no matter what man decided to call it. Prophecy is the word of God, and should be read from his perspective, not man's, and God's word says explicitly and numerously what he considers to be the his temple, his dwelling place. It is his church. Okay, I've said my piece, I won't bother this thread anymore. It just irks me to think that many people are going to be caught unawares, simply because they think that a physical temple must be built and sacrifices started before the tribulation can begin.

reply to post by doctorex


Well said Doc, and im in complete agreement with the scripture you've posted, BUT, remember the Jews did not and do not see Y'Shua as Moshiach and never have, so THEY will continue in their quest to build the Temple believing this is accordance with welcoming the Messiah. The scripture you mentioned was in regard to the Messiah, of whom we both know has already lived and died for us.

Doctorex your take on the temple is correct as far as scripture is concerned and I have often wondered about its role in prophecy. Do you have any links that might help to clarify your escatalogical view? Anything might help. I am enjoying this conversation as well and am looking forward to learning more.

As far as those that are pushing for prophecy to be fullfilled. It should be noted that even many of the evangelicals, while looking expectingly for the return of our Savior, are not necessarily trying to bring about all that is to occur concerning end times. I know of no true "christian" that would wish for any of the death and destruction that will occur before His return. Our calling is for the Word to be spread to all corners. We are to spread the seed and let God do the rest.

The problem is that many see this as an attempt to push the doctrine of the Church on unbelievers. This may be the case in some but definately not all those that go out to evangelize.

For those that will say that the "church" has caused more death and destruction than any other, needs to understand that these wars and forced conversions were done by the Catholic church. As doctorex has put forth this appears to be the woman on the beast. Who else could be considered "The Whore of Babylon" but one that has defiled the wedding bed of her husband. The "church" is considered to be the bride of Christ.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by doctorex

While I agree that the son of perdition could cause the abomination within the church I still believe he needs to be a political leader or king. In Daniels and Johns visions both he is described as a horn of the beast. Horns represent kings according to the interpretation given to Daniel. It is possible for a political leader to enter a church and cause the abomination. We see politicians make speaches at churches all the time these days. The beast represents his kingdom. Have you seen some of the things Tony Blair is working on with the alliance of civilizations? This alliance is trying to make it so anyone who speaks for fundamentals of any religion that might offend some one can be charged with what is equal to a hate crime. All the meanwhile stating all religions need to ban together to whipe out these type of fundamental beliefs. Does this sound about right? Is it not possible the EU could be the first beast with the son of perdition as its head and the UN could house the false prophet. I state this because revelation also states the false prophet will set his rule in Babylon, or modern Iraq. Something that has went under the radar is the USA just built the largest embassy in the world there. With a majority of it promised to the UN. Is it not plausible then that in the near future we could at least see a section of the UN if not their headquarters moved here with the prophet moving into position there. While the son or ac could take the reigns of the EU. As I stated before I believe we could already be seeing this start to unfold, and most have not been paying attention. Of course these could just be the ripples that turn into the huge wave, either way it is worth paying close attention to. Have you looked at www.fulfilledprophecy.com they do a great job of covering the news from over there as well as have a section on the documents I spoke of before. I would highly recomend looking at their site and seeing everything they have posted. I also am greatly enjoying this conversation, and love it is in a forum where it still can be a witness even after we are gone, whether through rapture or persacution.

reply to post by reluctantpawn


I like some of your points here but something that needs to be remembered is those that push for prophecy to be fulfilled can still be used as instruments of God. Even Judas through his turning over of Jesus was doing gods will. These people even in their arrogance could very well be instruments He uses. Hitler was an instrument, and before any one sends anything hatefull my way let me explain. Had it not been for the atrocities he perpatrated against the jews there never would have been a push for a jewish state for the jews who had been displaced by him. Therefore even through the horrendous holocaust God was working to bring Ezekials vision to fruition. This could very well be the waysome prophecy comes to pass.

reply to post by jdl79


wells said! i agree 100% its natural to believe God will work on the works of men to accomplish (as he ALWAYS has) his will.

reply to post by jdl79


We are not in disagreement and you make a valid point. All are used for the greater glory although some are used reluctantly. Without a doubt there are those that might wish to rush things, But the ideas of man will not rush God's will.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by doctorex



Doc, while I can see how you have come to your conclusion, I don't agree. If you notice the middle of verse 26 changes the focus from messiah to the prince of destruction and his people. Also Jesus did take away the need for the sacrifice but did not cause them to cease as this states. The temples destruction in 70 ad caused the cease. Also Jesus covenant was not for one week but for all time. Also note in Gabriels explanation of Daniels vision from chapter 8, the explanation comes in chapter 9:27 "That leader will make firm an agreement with many people for 7 years. He will stop the offerings and sacrifices after three and one half years. A Destroyer will do terrible things until the ordered end comes to the destroyed city." This was a explanation to the vision of the leader in 8:23 "When the end comes near for those kingdoms, a bold and cruel king who tells lies will come. This will happen when many people have turned against God.The king will be very powerful but his power will not come from himself. He will cause terrible destruction and will be successful in everything he does. He will destroy powerful people and even Gods holy people. This king will suceed using lies and force. He will think that he is very important. He will destroy many people without warning; He will try to fight even the Prince of princes! But that cruel king will be destroyed, and not by human power." Gabriel states Chapter 9 is an explanation of the vision from 8. This clearly implies the cruel leader at the end making firm an agreement for 7 years only to break it after 3 and a half years.

reply to post by reluctantpawn


And their rushing may be just in time with God. I must state I love the way this conversation is encompassing so many facets, and despite different views on some issues, we all wish the conversation to ultimately glorify God. Welcome to church my friends!

Where two or more are gathered in my name ther I shall be also!

reply to post by jdl79


indeed!

Originally posted by GodMode
Illahee its nice to make your virtual acquaintance. A fellow believer? or am i being presumptuous?

as i said i have studied ceaselessly for years since becoming a Christian (used to be a stone Agnostic and would even have hours long discussions with men of cloth) until something of note happened to me...it was instantaneous.

Godmode, what happened of note to you?