Alternative 9/11 Theories

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Anyrate, jtj I see where your coming from with the statement they are just covering up for their incompetences but for the best I can see it almost seems like it was allowed to happen for various well known highly beneficial reasons.

I know you weren't addressing me, but I can agree with your whole post.

RICE: I believe the title was, "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States."

It did not warn of attacks inside the United States.

Ms. Rice is talking about the exact same memo here.

Many of our democratic partners are having some of the same debates that we are about how to have prevention without issues of civil liberties being exposed.

We think the Patriot Act gets just the right balance and that it's extremely important to prevention because it makes law enforcement -- usually in law enforcement you wait until a crime is committed and then you act. We cannot afford in terrorism to wait until a crime is committed.

www.cnn.com...

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
reply to post by Wizard_In_The_Woods

 

The thing that troubles me about your theory is the eyewitness accounts to these guys pre 9/11.

RomanMaroni,

Of course the ‘hijackers’ were/are real people and not computer generated figures or space aliens from the planet Xanadu. But just because these folks exist in real life and went to bars and flight school doesn’t mean they flew planes on 9-11.

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods

reply to post by Wizard_In_The_Woods


Wizard, I think you misinterpreted my question. I wasn't implying they weren't real people, I was just wondering if you felt these guys went through all the "motions" to look as guys who were planning a terrorist act. I actually laughed when I read your post. I was imagining computer generated people just going through the motions of everyday life. And no, I wasn't think space aliens, either. So you feel these "hijackers" were meant to be seen doing these things, and as described by the FBI, left a trail that was meant to be followed. That's interesting.

I just don't understand why they waited to demo the buildings. I think if it was demo'd, they would have done it immediately after impact for maximum casualties. More casualties = more rage from the American people = more support for retaliation against anyone = more war for the war profiteers. I'm not saying I don't believe the CD theory though. Anok hits the nail on the head. How does asymmetrical damage cause symmetrical collapse? All these debunkers say the planes caused so much structural damage and fire took care of the rest. How do the other 3 sides of the building fail at the same time as the side that was impacted? I'm no engineer and there are a lot of things I know very little about, and that is why I don't get into these discussions. But it just doesn't make sense to me that fire caused as much damage to the opposite side corners as the plane to the impacted side to make everything fail simultaneously. It seems to me the buildings should topple.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Sort of like I think Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen.

2) The fact that a few countries were practically screaming at us that something was about to happen and was more or less ignored.
Sorry I didn't provide sources and will provide them tomorrow if you so wish. It's late and I am eager to at least make an attempt at pushing this thread back in the direction that was intended.

Plenty of declassified documents state that the government knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. Also, recenltly more documents have been declassified about the USS Liberty and what the government did or did not do in the planning of the attack on the ship.

If you would like more info please go the NSA public website (www.nsa.gov) and go to the National Cryptologic Museum, they have historical documents and machines dealing with encryption.

I have lots of information on the fact the government had lots of prior warnings about 9/11.



[edit on 6-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Jake the Dog Man
Let’s see, CTers still have no evidence, misquote & bait posters on this thread (we are all trolls or dis info agents), read far too much into what facts they do know (different teams train constantly in NY… LA… Chicago too, so what?) and yet can only use fear mongering and compare believers in the official story to Hitler? Thankfully I read this as a last ditch effort because I guess the CTers have hit the bottom of the barrel. You should not only be ashamed… but normal, logical people should be ashamed FOR you. The comparison is pathetic.

Has anyone ever heard of the game “3 degrees of Kevin Bacon” or something close to that? Apparently, you can tie Kevin Bacon to almost any other actor in Hollywood within 3 movies that they were in. It is a modern take on the “Most people are within 3 hand shakes of the President of the United States”. The idea of Securacom is about that valid.

I come to this site and others to inform myself. Honestly, years ago, there were many more unanswered questions. After 7 years something should have come up to point towards something. Not only has hardly anything been worth pursuing, but not enough exists to justify a complaint at a service desk, let alone a legal panel. I think that the only thing keeping any conspiracy alive is the conspiracy itself. The questions have been answered time & time again. Every few months another outlandish theory (I think “theory” is too good of a word for most) is floated, becomes popular among the internet crowd, then dies under its own weight of silliness. It is one thing to sit around with your buddies drinking and dream up these ideas, but believing them shows little understanding of the facts. Why should we bother posting the facts, which haven’t changed since 9/11, when a CTers can just discard them with the weekly idea? There are 100s, if not 1000s of theories, yet the facts still only support something damn close to the Official Story. Why is that?

Fertile imaginations may be enough to get you out of High school, but not a PhD. I’ll still be waiting on some evidence, but how long should a rational person be expected to wait?

Here's some scientific evidence, and I'm pretty sure Dr Steven Jones didn't use just his imagination Try watching the whole video your wait for evidence is over.

Google Video Link

reply to post by JohnnyR


What does this have to do with alternative theories?
Alternative as in ones not in the mainstream of the "truther" movement?

lol whatever man, did you watch the video? or did you just come on to try and make me look trivial. Sorry it doesn't meet your requirements.

However if you did watch the video, you'll see that he's discussing the use of Thermite/thermate to bring down the towers, which to me is an alternative.

I really don't know what you're looking for, every possible scenario has been brought up about 911, What possible alternative could there be? Are you hoping someone comes on to discuss holograms or scalar weapons so that you can easily debunk them?

So I guess I need you to define "alternative" for me. Or should I just leave...

Also, this is a response to Jake wanting some evidence, in what is now a 11 page discussion, so i presented some.

[edit on 5/6/2008 by JohnnyR]

reply to post by JohnnyR


I must admit I'm not a big fan of "go watch the hour long video" when I have no idea what it's about. A summary of what to expect would be nice so I can decide whether or not it's a waste of my time.

Dr Jones seems, to me at least, to be going about his 'investigation' in reverse compared to a true objective approach. He's formulated a theory and has been desperately trying to find the evidence to support it and it's apparent that many of his former colleagues are distancing themselves. He might have done a lot better overall to locate the evidence first, then join the dots including ALL available evidence but it's a bit late for that as he placed himself on fringe quite a while ago.

I hope that made sense - I'm way overdue for a long sleep

On the subject of the Patriot Act, we had similar legislation passed here in the wake of 9/11. It gave the federal police the power to arrest and detain terror suspects indefinitely without formal charges which opens the door to abuse of power but prior to that they were virtually toothless unless the offense had already been committed. To me, it was a necessary change that was accelerated to acceptancy by the events. No I don't believe the events were orchestrated in order to pass the legislation, as terror has been a growing problem for a long time but it always happened somewhere else for most of us.

Very interesting video. I’ve seen this guy speak before, maybe even this video, he really does speak well. That being said, I think he still doesn’t take everything into consideration, at one time, so he seems more creditable speaking about things in general. He also seems like a very nice guy, who doesn’t rant & rave, which gives him the further air of respectability. Only a nice guy for get away with pulling out a lighter & piece of metal at NOT be laughed off the stage (even the water sprayed made him more likable). I would like to sit & chew the fat with this guy sometime. He actually seems to be far less offensive & amiable then most others that speak for his type, though still misguided. The fact that the audience was sold out to people who wanted to believe a conspiracy helps too…

I honestly did watch the entire video (new computer & a hottub helped) through before posting this, but nothing new was talked about. I’d put this at maybe 3 years old? He makes the silly statement about how even the official story requires a conspiracy, so even it is a conspiracy theory. Horse feathers. That is simply to cast a grey cloak of conspiracy on everything. I guess it doesn’t matter to him that there is no tangible evidence to support his theory, but plenty for the official one.

He seemed to gloss over many points through the whole video, especially physics, especially when it comes to the points of “Complete Collapse” (“due to fire”), which has been explained over & over. He came just short of claiming someone standing on the roof should have been able to ride the roof down to street level like Wiley Coyote. Why muddy the water with bringing in unrelated buildings, not to mention highway bridges? The presence of iron spheres does not prove anything, other then their very own presence. Supporters of both sides like to use buzz words, which are often turned around to use against them in the coming months when the winds shift. Over simplifying & using 7 year old circumstantial evidence (dust was tested & claimed to be safe, years later asbestos is present). Here’s some common sense, that amount of dust can not ever be safe, even if it was inert, large amounts of dust are bad.

The basic official story hasn’t changed much and still explains mostly everything. The conspiracy theories change on a regular basis. 9/11 was more of a recipe for disaster, rather then a minute meal. So many things had to happen in conjunction.

I hope anyone wondering what keeps these theories & speakers’ going takes into consideration how much this gentleman was paid & reimbursed to come to Boston and speak. I wonder what the going rate is for the nearly 100 other people in his little club to come and speak about how they also over-think basic events? He’s thinking that this is the last nail in the coffin of an official story? I’m thinking this is the best they have after 7 years?

All jokes aside, I really would be interested in knowing what he charges.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Here is an alternative theory...

19 Insane, Religious Jihadists took over some airplanes and declared war on the U.S at the behest of Osama Bin Laden.

More alternatives...
Bin Laden never, repeat never worked for the U.S.
WTC 7 had massive damage on the far side of the building that was not seen on tape.
There was a simple training excercise.
"truthers" hate America.

well.. as far as im concerned anyone who thinks it was a conspiracy by our own government.. needs to stop and think about one thing... Do you really think our government is that well oiled to really pull something like that off.. ?????? I wouldnt let the government build or destroy a dollhouse... after they were done.. it would be 25 yrs,.. and 39 billion dollars.. and it would look like a # .. or out house..

Originally posted by Pilgrum
He's formulated a theory and has been desperately trying to find the evidence to support it

You mean just like NIST did with their reports?

Originally posted by philjwolf
well.. as far as im concerned anyone who thinks it was a conspiracy by our own government.. needs to stop and think about one thing... .

You need to stop and look at history and things like Pearl Harbor and the USS Liberty to see what our government is capable of doing.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Not only Pearl Harbor and USS Liberty, look at Iran Contra. There you can begin see just how people behind the scenes can do just about anything they want. And if anyone think that is an isolated incident, I think they are gullible. Iran Contra involves the same people that were involved in a lot of Vietnam behind the scenes activity. Look at who was in the White House and government then and compare it to who is there today, and you will see a lot of the same names. I will venture to say these behind the scenes figures learned a lot from Iran Contra and now understand how to operate more effectively in achieving their goals. Look at the use of terrorism and all the deaths caused by these people and then ask yourself if you think it's completely impossible to think these people would kill 3,000 US citizens.

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
Not only Pearl Harbor and USS Liberty, look at Iran Contra.

Oh yes, i was just using those 2 as an example, specifically the USS Liberty since there has been recent information on it.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Iran Contra really exposed the power behind the government, and these people will do anything to advance their cause. Iran Contra also brought us the war criminal traitor turned fox news spokesman Oliver North. These people were not only making deals with terrorists, they were using their own terrorist groups to perform act of terrorism resulting is massive amounts of deaths of innocent civilians, many being women and children. And go figure, Israel played a major role in that, too.

Originally posted by RomanMaroni
Iran Contra also brought us the war criminal traitor turned fox news spokesman Oliver North.

Well the USS Liberty showed us that our government would even attack and kill our own to instigate war.

I do not think Oliver Norht was really a traitor, i think he was just more of a puppet.

Originally posted by Pilgrum
He's formulated a theory and has been desperately trying to find the evidence to support it



You mean just like NIST did with their reports?

There is a big difference in trying to find evidence to support something and explaining every single item to the enth degree like the CTers seem to want. Not be able to explain the evidence doesn’t mean you discard it or make up new evidence. Throwing out all the evidence doesn’t make OJ anymore innocent; it just means there is another murderer walking around free.

Investigators on the scene of an automobile accident with dozens of witnesses do not start by doing tests for whether lasers or holograms were used. Investigators during the aftermath of tornadoes, all caught on video, are not wondering if bombs were used. Investigators at a plane crash in the desert are not looking into what the bacteria levels at the beach were that day.

You should admit to yourselves that NOTHING would prove to you ANYTHING other then what you have made you mind up happened. Doesn’t it make you feel the slightest bit uneasy how many things you need to contort & evidence you need to ignore just to make your theories work? Your side seems to have set up the ultimate circular argument. Why is there life? Do we actually exist?

Sometimes, even most times, a cigar is just a cigar.

Originally posted by Jake the Dog Man
You should admit to yourselves that NOTHING would prove to you ANYTHING other then what you have made you mind up happened.

CT-ers didn't just make up their minds out of the blue. They did it after extensive research. So of course we won't be swayed easily.

Before looking into things many of us believed the official story -- myself included. We couldn't imagine something as big as 9-11 being a false flag event. So we didn't dare to ask questions. Somehow, over time, all of us CT-ers decided to start thinking about what happened on that day. Then, we only changed our minds precisely because the facts dictated that we do so.

E. g. airplanes can't disappear and steel skyscrapers don't turn to dust without massive inputs of energy. Hence, the outlandish seeming theories of holograms and hydrogen bombs. If you think that's crazy then please offer an alternative theory that fits the facts on the ground -- no aircraft parts and four buildings turning to ashes (WTC-1, 2, 6 and 7).

Greetings,
The Wizard In The Woods