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Randy Weaver - what's the truth?

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posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 07:01 AM
Hi everyone,
I have found a number of threads about this already but just wanted to get a quick overview. I've done some basic research but don't know if what I read on eg Wiki is representative of what most people believe happened? And is this other Weavers stuff connected to the Weaver family in some way?

posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 07:44 AM
Randy and his wife Vicki took their kids and moved into remote Idaho. Their speciffic religious beliefs and distrust of authority fueled their desire to separate from modern society. They wanted to teach their children to live off the land and farm for self reliance.

There really wasn't anything to do out there. The only past-time so to speak was an Aryan Nations community down the hill a ways. Randy would sometimes go to the bar on the property for some conversation and drinks.

The ATF all the while had plants within the Aryan Nations community to investigate some alleged crimes. One of these plants got to know Randy pretty well. The ATF, learning that Randy was ex-military, figured he would be a prime candidate to help with the investigation. Randy didn't want to.

A little while later one of these plants asked Randy if he had any shotguns for sale. Randy needing money said he did. During the transaction the plant asked Randy if he could saw the barrel down for him. Randy, either because of ignorance of the law or out of spite of a perceived stupid law, cut down the barrel of the gun making it illegal. The ATF arrested Randy and charged him with the crime and told him they would drop the charges if he would help with the investigation he had already refused to help with. He still refused. He was released on bond and mailed a letter with his court date. This court date would be incorrect.

The court date he was given was actually weeks later than the court date the court expected to see him on. As such he missed his date and was charged with failure to appear and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

At this point Randy could have used his letter to clear up the misunderstanding and most likely the charge of failure to appear would have been dropped but Randy who already mistrusted the government saw this as an intentional act to trap him into the system and refused any further contact with the authorities.

This is the point at which many say Vicki's reputation as hard-headed began to influence Randy's actions.

Randy would hole up in his cabin on the mountain.

Marshall's charged with Randy's arrest began surveillance of his property in preparation for arresting him.

Marchall's noticed Randy, his son and family friend Kevin Harris as well as Sara and Vicki would be always armed when moving about the property. The marshall's split into two teams. One for distance observation one to creep in close from the bas of the property. The Weavers dog caught scent of the second closer team and chased after them. Sam, Randy's son and Kevin followed. Randy ran what he thought would be an intercept line to head off the dog. All were armed. Except the dog. Randy reached the spot where the paths connected and met face to face with a Marshall in camouflage. The Marshall told Randy to drop the gun and he was under arrest. Randy shouted "Screw you. Boys it's an ambush get back to the cabin."

Randy ran back up toward the cabin and a shot rang out. The Weaver's dog had come too close (so claims the Marshall) to the Marshall and was shot. Sam seeing his dog be shot shouted "You killed my dog" and began firing blindly into the direction from which the shot came. Kevin came, grabbed Sam and began heading back up the hill. At this point Sam was shot in the back and killed. Kevin returned a covering fire as he fled back to the cabin.

During this exchange a Marshall was shot and killed. It is unclear whether Sam or Kevin shot the Marshall.

The next day Sara and Randy retrieved Sams body and put him in a shed on the property.

The Marshalls radioed in that one had been killed. The FBI, ATF and state and local agencies decided to treat the situation as a military battle with a standing order to shoot to kill any armed adults.

Days pass.

Snipers are now in the woods around the Weaver cabin as well as helicopters, armored vehicles and many many many fully armed military personnel in body armor and camouflage.

One morning Randy decided to check on Sams body. He left the cabin with a rifle over his shoulder and headed for the shed. He was being watched by two FBI snipers. When Randy reached up to open the latch on the shed a sniper took the shot. The sniper later said it looked as though Randy was aiming the rifle at a helicopter and he needed to act to defend the helicopter.

Randy was shot in the shoulder. His daughter Sara ran out toward her father and stood between him and the source of the shot and covered him with her own body until they reached the shed. Kevin came out and helped Sara get Randy inside. The sniper shot Kevin. Before the door closed the sniper took one more shot hitting Vicki Weaver in the head as she stood holding her 10 month old daughter Elishiba. Vicki fell to the ground dead and remaind in the cabin for days to come. Kevin was badly wounded but would survive.

When word of Vickis death reached the onlookers and supporters near the staging and media areas some people began to cry and shout "why?" and "you murderers" and others shouted at the agents "this is it, we're going to war!"

At this point "negotiations" took a somewhat sadistic turn. The FBI would shout to the cabin that there was a phone on the porch for them if they would just come out and get it. And they would repeated ask for Vicki to "talk some sense" into Randy.

Sara would crawl over her mothers corpse to retrieve food from the pantry to feed wounded Kevin and her 10 month old sister. Randy kept the blinds pulled and stayed below the windows.

Eventually Bo Gritz would be able to convince Randy into surrendering.

Randy and Kevin were arrested and tried for he original firearm crime, failure to appear and the murder of the the Marshall who died on the mountain.

Kevin was acquitted of all charges and Randy was only convicted of the failure to appear charge.

Later the government paid Randy $100,000 and his two surviving children $1 million each and Kevin Harris $308,000 without admitting any wrong doing.

I've heard it said there are two kinds of people in America. Those who think Randy Weaver is a lunatic who got his wife and son killed and those who think the government murdered that child and his mother then paid Randy for the privilege of doing so. I am of the latter group. I used to want to be a cop because I liked the idea of helping people in need and keeping my community safe from criminals. Then I asked myself would I have shot Vicki Weaver? Absolutely not. I would sooner turn and shoot whoever it was giving me the order to shoot that woman. No being a cop for me.

National Geographic recently did a special on Ruby Ridge. It was really good. I know you can get it from the Xbox marketplace and I'm sure there's a torrent out there for it.

posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 07:54 AM
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

I always though Randy's views on religion were a little more towards Christian Identity which is a different sect than Aryan Nations. Rev Butler with Aryan Nations was a little strange, too say the least. I'd think he would be more of a Rev. Pete Peters follower with the sermons mailed to him. I base this only on what I have read about Sarah's beliefs.

His political leaning would be toward Posse Comitatus specifically with his reaction towards federal agents.

thisguyrighthere, what's your thoughts on this?

posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 08:21 AM
reply to post by hinky

Randy himself states that he and Vicki practiced Christian Identity. His interactions with the Aryan Nations were simply social. He consistently says he was only ever there at the compound for companionship and some drinks.

There have been repeated attempts to paint the Weavers as some sort of bigoted hate-mongering family. Even in the Wiki entry. But the only evidence of this would be Randy's visiting the A.N. compound occasionally.

Where he was in Northern Idaho he really didn't have many options for some low/no cost entertainment. If the compound were full of Black Panthers and Randy went down there for a drink or two once in a while would people try to spin the Weavers to be "Black Supremacists"?

If baseball is the only game in town does that mean you hate football? No.

When dealing with what motivates people like the Weavers and how people interpret their actions there is a very cloudy mish-mash of half-truths and very little fact.

They ran off to seclusion so by default anybody not used to a rural life will think they are crazy. This includes both coasts and all metropolitan populations which because they are the hubs of all media become the opinion of the nation. Why would nayone wish to be left alone? They must be crazy!
Already the cards are against them.

I've heard Randy trace his distrust of the government back to when he was a Special Forces soldier. Presumably he saw, heard or possibly did things that reinforced his beliefs. Most behaviors are learned behaviors.

Openly distrusting our keepers is another strike against you in the eyes of metropolitan America.

So for any 9-5er in front of their TV with their city trash pickup every Monday already thinks the Weavers are crazy and perhaps abusive to their children for home-schooling and the subject of race hasn't been brought up yet.
These people in front of their TV's were thinking if the family were black they obviously need help and if the family were to be white they were obviously skinheads.

Then we get the footage and it's confirmed for the vast majority of America. The Weavers are white and in a rural area therefore they are rednecks and waiting for some race war. From that moment on televisions every may as well have been shut off because Sam and Vicki didn't matter anymore. They weren't people they were racists. Keep repeating the connection to Aryan Nations and you dehumanize them even more in the eyes of metropolitan America a.k.a. the America that matters.

I don't know what's in Randy's heart so I can't say with absolute certainty whether he is a bigot or not. I only know what this copy of "Every Knee shall Bow" on my desk says, what the transcripts from many newscasts of the time say, what the interviews in a half dozen "documentaries" say and what he has said all along and most recently what he has said up standing with the Browns in New Hampshire was.

In short, whether he is or is not a bigot is inconsequential to the events that took place. We can call him the Grand Wizard or the Black Panther Party Chairman or president of a local Bridge club and it would make no difference.

posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 07:58 AM

Originally posted by hinky

I always though Randy's views on religion were a little more towards Christian Identity which is a different sect than Aryan Nations. Rev Butler with Aryan Nations was a little strange, too say the least.

interesting stuff... not sure where this fits into it, if at all, just the focus on "the weavers" and some controversial religious thinking made me think there might be a connection to Randy Weaver:

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