Ex-atheist describes near-death experience

This is a good read

www.southcoasttoday.com...

A native son and newspaper carrier for The Standard- Times in Falmouth, Howard Storm went on to earn a master's degree from the University of California, Berkeley, and for 20 years was an arts professor at Northern Kentucky University. An avowed atheist, he believed that there was no such thing as life after death -- until the day in 1985 when he died and went to hell.

more by him -->www.near-death.com...

[Edited on 24-2-2004 by Netchicken]

You hear many people arguing that when the body is in the process of dying the chemicals released in the brain produces hallucinations to ease the body into death. This story debunks that theory, he was dying and the drugs his body released into his brain didn�t ease his suffering, he was on his way to a very real hell. The most beautiful thing in that story was that he was being consumed by demons, the devil had won his soul and all he had to do was say a prayer for Jesus to save him. I guess Jesus doesn�t walk away from you even after you have been judged.

Hmmm... Seems like just another example of how christianity uses fear of hell to recruit.

I am not knocking anyones beliefs here, so if you want to believe that man went to hell and those were really demons, well whatever floats your boat. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that this was anything more than a natural occurance, a dream if you will, an effect of his being near death and the bodies/brains reaction. Just MO, take it as you wish.

Seems more credable to me since the guy was a professed Athiest befor the incident.

Thanks Skeptic. We agree on this.

Seems to me, that the guy may have had the hallucinations because he THOUGHT he was going to die, and he then hallucinated HELL. I have seen hell myself. I dreamed about it many times as a child when I was told I would go there if I lied etc.

This article does sound like something written up as a recruiting document for the christians. Fine by me.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Hmmm...

Seems like just another example of how christianity uses fear of hell to recruit.

I agree. Christianity preaches about saving people. Well people need something to be saved from. That would be their hell. Sorry, I dont buy it. I will not be someone who lives my life in fear.

Then why wasn�t he in a state of bliss when his body released the hallucinogenic chemicals to the brain?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Then why wasn�t he in a state of bliss when his body released the hallucinogenic chemicals to the brain?

Is that what is supposed to happy every and all the time? I am not a doctor so I dont know, but I suspect that is not always the case.

Not all hallucinations are "blissful" my friend. I have had blissful ones and not so blissful. The fact of the matter is that "professed athiest" such as this guy "claims" to have been, are oft rideculed by christians that they will go to hell when they die. Therefore, his hallucination was of hell. Not blissful at all.

When he prayed, he began to believe he was being saved, and therefore began hallucinating he was saved, and therefore became christain and now needs to preach his new lifestyle to all. Like the bible says you should.

I guess I am a heathen. Oh well, I like it that way.

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho
Not all hallucinations are "blissful" my friend. I have had blissful ones and not so blissful.

Article

�The link between temporal-lobe epilepsy and the near death experience has formed the basis of a thorough neurobiological model of the near death experience (Saavedra-Aguilar and Gomez-Jeria 1989). They suggest that the brain stress consequent on the near-death episode leads to the release of neuropeptides and neurotransmitters (in particular the endogenous endorphins). These then stimulate the limbic system and other connected areas. In addition, the effect of the endorphins could account the blissful and other positive emotional states so often associated with the near death experience.�

If you believe in evolution then the body over millions of years built up this defense to protect the person from pain. I doubt you could have �a bad trip.� It can�t be compared to an overdose of '___'.


[Edited on 24-2-2004 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
They suggest that the brain stress consequent on the near-death episode leads to the release of neuropeptides and neurotransmitters (in particular the endogenous endorphins). These then stimulate the limbic system and other connected areas. In addition, the effect of the endorphins could account the blissful and other positive emotional states so often associated with the near death experience.�

Originally posted by kinglizard
You hear many people arguing that when the body is in the process of dying the chemicals released in the brain produces hallucinations to ease the body into death. This story debunks that theory, he was dying and the drugs his body released into his brain didn�t ease his suffering, he was on his way to a very real hell.

So even after you say that the story debunks the theory, you still believe the theory. Now I'm confused.

Do you or do you not believe the theory?

Also, not all hallucinations are brought on by drugs. Although I have had my share that were, I have also had that many more and then some that were not drug induced.
Blessed Be

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho
[So even after you say that the story debunks the theory, you still believe the theory. Now I'm confused.

Do you or do you not believe the theory?

Blessed Be

Sorry I�m not being clear on my stance, let me try to explain.

I think the body does have a mechanism to protect the body when dying. That mechanism is the release of chemicals into the brain to produce an opiate like effect. However something more powerful interfered with this mans near death experience. He was seemingly judged and was on his way to hell, the blissful experience was replaced with the reality that he was being punished for the way he lead his life.

There's a funny, irreverent, darkly satirical Aussie book & movie about a guy who dies, has an OOBE, and is then resuscitated with a new outlook on life. He discovers that his former life was hell, and decides to reform himself and recreate the remainder of his life. It's sort of a very twisted & perverse version of the film "It's A Wonderful Life" or Charles Dickens' "The Christmas Story", but without the Christian perspective. Worth a look if you can handle weird flicks like "Brazil" and "12 Monkeys".

www.middlemiss.org...

movies2.nytimes.com...

I do not believe the body has an opium defence to death...I have seen people die, gasping for breath and moaning in pain. Of course when you give them morphine then they seem relaxed, but this is the drug, the body did nothing.

As for the hallucinations, most likely a dream yes, it is a common occurance for people to dream of hell or horrible things in near death experiences, even if he is an atheist, perhaps he was just toiling over such thoughts before this happened. Keep in mind, his unconsious may have conjured these images to get him into religion, the human race has a natural impulse to worship, and religion is a great blanket of security that some people require.

From my understanding, these visions are caused not only from dream-like things, but sometimes from the sudden connection of the nerves coming back to life that lead to the eyes. This produces a flood of visions at times, and sometimes causes people to believe they had something interfear with their 'dream'.

Thanks for clearing that up Kinglizard. I understand you now.

I agree with Quest. I too, being an ex-firefighter/EMT, have watched people die. It is not a "comfortable" thing. Gasping for air, convulsing, then just going to sleep do not in anyway seem blissful to me.

I have heard and read however, that there are other theories on the brain and what happens at death, such as, but not limited to, the following.

Electrical surges that cause "memories" to flash by as visions. (The source of the expression, my life just flashed before my eyes)

Impulses that cause the nerves in the eye to become sensative to light of any kind. This has been used in many cases to explain the "light at the end of the tunnel" that many near death survivors have spoken of.

And auditory reflexes just prior to passing that cause major distortion in sounds, which could (remember, these are ALL just THEORIES) cause a person to believe they hear screaming or voices.

All of these have been mentioned as "sysmptoms" of a near death experience, yet, of course as with all theories, none can be proven either way.

Blessed Be

[Edited on 24-2-2004 by ImAlreadyPsycho]

Not at all...

As he neared death, he obviously wasn't completely sure of his conviction, and thus had it in his head that if God existed, he was going to hell. This then manifested itself, much like a dream, as it was the only thing his subconscience was focused on, therefore he experienced a very real hallucinatory experience, just as those who had NDE's and saw heaven did..

It isn't about belief...it's about the mindset you are in when you die...that determines what kind of reality you create for yourself....

Hold on let me make up a story to futher my religious/political views.......

yes it is that easy

[Edited on 24-2-2004 by McGotti]

Sounds more like a fairy tale. He remembers all this, all these years later? This is one part that made the bulls**t alarm go off:

They told me that at the most, one or two nuclear weapons might go off accidentally, if they weren�t destroyed, but there wouldn�t be a nuclear war. I then asked them how come there had been so many wars. They said that they allowed those few to happen, out of all the wars that humanity tried to start. Out of all the wars that humans tried to create, they allowed a few, to bring people to their senses and to stop them.

Hmmmmm.......
Wouldn't it be nice to know where, since he was asking questions and they were answering them? That would be the first question I would ask after that response.
And, he says Maybe, one or two MIGHT go off? Accidentily if they are not destroyed? Um....do they know or do they not know?

Ok, here is another one:

"Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn."

Wow, think of the posibilities, I know I'm gonna go to heaven even if I make all the mistakes I want. So this guy knows he can still be an Ahole (if he feels like it) and everything will be handy dandy fine in the end.

After that, it would be an insult to them if I didn�t accept the forgiveness. I shouldn�t continue to go around with a sense of guilt, and I should not repeat errors � I should learn from my mistakes.

It gets even better! Lmao! YEAH RIGHT!
I doubt it's that simple. If it was and what he says is true then we can be pretty damn bad and get away with it if we keep saying sorry......OK

They never gave me a direct mission or purpose. Could I build a shrine or cathedral for God? They said those monuments were for humanity. They wanted me to live my life to love people not things

Jesus seemed to think the temple in Jerusleam was important.

The luminous beings, my teachers, were very convincing. I was also acutely aware that not far away was the Great being, what I knew to be the Creator. They never said, "He wants it this way," but that was implied behind everything they said. I didn't want to argue too much because the Great Entity was so wonderful and so awesome. The love that was emanated was overwhelming.

Presenting my biggest argument against coming back into the world, I told them that it would break my heart, and I would die, if I had to leave them and their love. Coming back would be so cruel, I said, that I couldn�t stand it. I mentioned that the world was filled with hate and competition, and I didn�t want to return to that maelstrom. I couldn�t bear to leave them.

Sure, God basicly just told him to go home and he is going to continue to argue? He is sitting there arguing with "countless" angels, Jesus "engulfing" him...LMAO, and God a few feet to the right, I don't think I'd be arguing with Gods angels.

I said, "But how do I know that? You tell me that, but when I go back there it's just going to be a nice theory."
They said, "Any time you need us we'll be there for you."

I said, "You mean like you'll just appear?"

Oh so now he is gonna be a smart azz with Gods angels, yeah right.

After that explanation I ran out of arguments, and I said I thought I could go back. And, just like that, I was back. Returning to my body, the pain was there, only worse than before."

HAHAHA....
Can ya feel them? There right there. Just reach in side and they will help you with the pain, they just said so, remember? Kinda cruel if they make the pain worse when he came back to life....
It's just the drugs wearing off. Drugs have been known to make ya see some pretty weird stuff. Different people react differently to different substances.

I don't believe this story. I do believe in God and Jesus but not this guys version. Reminds me of "Oh God you Devil" with George Burns.
Is he still alive?

How can you make a direct corelation between a near death-experience, and the subject of religion, and the realms of hell.

Who is to say that during this experience he simply was wisked away to a state " Hellish " realm within his " mind? "

Deep