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The U.S. Going Back to Nuclear Powered Surface Ships?
page: 2share:
reply to post by jojoKnowsBest
You look at the Long Beach and then, say a Ticonderoga or even Arleigh Burke and immediately see the difference that VLS cells have made in the surface fleet. The short core life of the early boats didn't help to endear them to the Navy either, I'm sure.
You look at the Long Beach and then, say a Ticonderoga or even Arleigh Burke and immediately see the difference that VLS cells have made in the surface fleet. The short core life of the early boats didn't help to endear them to the Navy either, I'm sure.
Originally posted by orangetom1999
Anyone know precisely how many nuclear submarines the Soviets/Russians have lost over the years. For some reason 7 to nine seems to ring a bell. I know that we have lost two.
I wonder what the count is in the waters close to those boats on the bottom of Neptune's Realm.
Just some random thoughts,
Orangetom
According Wikipedia 6 lost sub though I know they had a lot more accidents than that e.g. K-19, K-33, K-123
Russian submarine K-141 Kursk
Soviet submarine K-159
Soviet submarine K-219
Soviet submarine K-27
Soviet submarine K-278 Komsomolets
Soviet submarine K-8
oxillini
The core life is not the problem it once was in the early days. Core life projections for Virginia class submarines is some 40 plus years. For the CVN class carriers it is some 50 years.
New designs and core operatioinal management techniques are improving longevity here. None of this was known in the early days and the Navy as well as the design industry had to learn as they went. This was all new cutting edge stuff in those days.
Of these early ships/boats..only Enterprise is still operational. Quite a difference here...8 smaller submarine type reactors verses the 2 larger ones on the Nimitz class. Enterprises by comparison to Nimitz is a "High Maintenance Woman!" They've come along ways baby!!
Yes..Vertical Launch Systems have made both the Cruisers/FFGs as well as submarines offensive players compared to defensive in the olde days. About time too!!
Popeye,
Thanks for the list of lost Russian boats.
Thanks to all,
Orangetom
[edit on 12-3-2008 by orangetom1999]
You look at the Long Beach and then, say a Ticonderoga or even Arleigh Burke and immediately see the difference that VLS cells have made in the surface fleet. The short core life of the early boats didn't help to endear them to the Navy either, I'm sure.
The core life is not the problem it once was in the early days. Core life projections for Virginia class submarines is some 40 plus years. For the CVN class carriers it is some 50 years.
New designs and core operatioinal management techniques are improving longevity here. None of this was known in the early days and the Navy as well as the design industry had to learn as they went. This was all new cutting edge stuff in those days.
Of these early ships/boats..only Enterprise is still operational. Quite a difference here...8 smaller submarine type reactors verses the 2 larger ones on the Nimitz class. Enterprises by comparison to Nimitz is a "High Maintenance Woman!" They've come along ways baby!!
Yes..Vertical Launch Systems have made both the Cruisers/FFGs as well as submarines offensive players compared to defensive in the olde days. About time too!!
Popeye,
Thanks for the list of lost Russian boats.
Thanks to all,
Orangetom
[edit on 12-3-2008 by orangetom1999]
I have a question: What is the difference between a true Cruiser Hull and an upsized DD hull? Hi OrangeTom I am glad to see you post about this topic
since I knew you would know a lot about the subject.
Originally posted by oxillini
reply to post by xmotex
I say it will not and even in the slim chance it did, the ship could never use much of that power. It's a waste. It's a V-10 in a VW. Both are known quantities, but that doesn't automatically mean you can use them together.
Not completely true. Another reason to use nuc power is because the new ships will need this much added power. The new weapons systems being planned are based on railgun tech. All that “extra” power would be used to power these new guns.
[edit on 13-3-2008 by dismanrc]
reply to post by dismanrc
Most likely ..that kind of thing a rail gun would require a dedicated generator system for these weapons alone. Same with the electric catapult design. Steam power from a nuclear tea kettle would have no problem keeping such a generator turning.
Thanks,
Orangetom
Most likely ..that kind of thing a rail gun would require a dedicated generator system for these weapons alone. Same with the electric catapult design. Steam power from a nuclear tea kettle would have no problem keeping such a generator turning.
Thanks,
Orangetom
I heard about these new rail guns, using magnets to accelerate projectiles. It would be safer for ships to have rail guns since they don’t require
explosives just kinetic energy.
[edit on 13-3-2008 by jojoKnowsBest]
[edit on 13-3-2008 by jojoKnowsBest]
reply to post by dismanrc
The DDG-1000 is expected to receive these weapons first and the turbines on the 1000 are sized for that application. They produce significantly less power than a single Aircraft Carrier class reactor. Personally, I just don't see what the DDG(N) could do with that power.
The DDG-51 hull is sized for 4 LM2500 gas turbines and their associated equipment. In the existing arrangement, the turbine generators aren't even sized to generate electricity for propulsion. Where would the turbine generators sized to convert all reactor power to electrical power go in a smaller DDG-51 hull?
They'd be better served trying to put a Virginia or Seawolf reactor and engine room on there. That could reduce lead-time and design effort while providing some benefit to the sub community.
The DDG-1000 is expected to receive these weapons first and the turbines on the 1000 are sized for that application. They produce significantly less power than a single Aircraft Carrier class reactor. Personally, I just don't see what the DDG(N) could do with that power.
The DDG-51 hull is sized for 4 LM2500 gas turbines and their associated equipment. In the existing arrangement, the turbine generators aren't even sized to generate electricity for propulsion. Where would the turbine generators sized to convert all reactor power to electrical power go in a smaller DDG-51 hull?
They'd be better served trying to put a Virginia or Seawolf reactor and engine room on there. That could reduce lead-time and design effort while providing some benefit to the sub community.
reply to post by orangetom1999
EM weapons and catapults, I believe, are envisioned having energy storage nearby. Similar to the steam cats being used today.
EM weapons and catapults, I believe, are envisioned having energy storage nearby. Similar to the steam cats being used today.
reply to post by jojoKnowsBest
They're definitely safer in transit and when not in use. When firing, there's still an enormous release of energy going on and that's never without danger.
They're definitely safer in transit and when not in use. When firing, there's still an enormous release of energy going on and that's never without danger.
Originally posted by oxillini
reply to post by orangetom1999
EM weapons and catapults, I believe, are envisioned having energy storage nearby. Similar to the steam cats being used today.
Yes. I understand. Sort of an accumulator..or capacitor device or storage bank. This energy would still have to come from a source without compromising other systems. This is why I was thinking a dedicated generator. One which could be cross connected to other systems in cases of emergency but normally dedicated to these rail guns.
Wondering to myself how much space such an accumulator or electrical storage device would take up.
They're definitely safer in transit and when not in use. When firing, there's still an enormous release of energy going on and that's never without danger.
Agree here.
A device such as an electrical catapult.... fight deck is an antenna farm covering the whole frequency spectrum. Wonder also how they can protect these electrical devices from stray fields and energy spikes. Same thing in my mind with a rail gun.
SAme thing with one of these particle accelerators. Wondering what the reception is among different frequency spectrums in the neighborhoods surrounding them when they are operating.
Thanks,
Orangetom
reply to post by orangetom1999
How does one get an EM cat or railgun to pass EMI testing? The spike, by definition, must be HUGE.
You're most likely correct regarding the dedicated generator. However, I'm thinking if you use a motor-generator, you have the capability for bi-directional transfer.
How does one get an EM cat or railgun to pass EMI testing? The spike, by definition, must be HUGE.
You're most likely correct regarding the dedicated generator. However, I'm thinking if you use a motor-generator, you have the capability for bi-directional transfer.
Good question oxillini, I am thinking to myself ..that the connections must be very good..conductivity wise. I am told that on such as accelerators
many of the contacts are coated silver ...meaning contacts being silver..very clean and then coated to prevent oxidation. I have also seen high grade
gold used on electrical conducters ..ie patch cables. It must be very expensive for cables of such quality.
There must be a method of shielding in the catapult trough and on the electrical contacts. You most certainly would not want the catapult dragging someone down the deck if they had something of ferrous metal on them.
As to motor generators...I have seen different types in operation. Large to small. I am not that familiar with the circuitry end or the switching systems..not being an electrician. I had actually not considered this arena of a motor generator verses a dedicated steam generator. Thanks for this concept.
Orangetom
There must be a method of shielding in the catapult trough and on the electrical contacts. You most certainly would not want the catapult dragging someone down the deck if they had something of ferrous metal on them.
As to motor generators...I have seen different types in operation. Large to small. I am not that familiar with the circuitry end or the switching systems..not being an electrician. I had actually not considered this arena of a motor generator verses a dedicated steam generator. Thanks for this concept.
Orangetom
reply to post by orangetom1999
I actually was on the electrical side of the house.
Look around an RAR or RC and you'll find plenty of silver contacts and plating now. I have no doubt they'd use similar methods. Also, each of these cables is going to have several layers of shielding and end up being very large/heavy/expensive.
I actually was on the electrical side of the house.
Look around an RAR or RC and you'll find plenty of silver contacts and plating now. I have no doubt they'd use similar methods. Also, each of these cables is going to have several layers of shielding and end up being very large/heavy/expensive.
Hey oxillini,
Im on the machinery side of the house. Ive seen what happens inside these switch boxes and controllers when things go wrong. Very very impressive. Ive seen cables some 1.5 inchs in diameter smoked ..even the insulation melted and the copper appeared to be crystalized off of one of these generators. Very very impressive. Everything was running fine and then suddenly everything went to crap.
The Lord was watching over us that night ..no one killed. Smoke inhalation. The navy ran thier emergency shutdown proceedures and also used thier buddy system to walk the injured to sick bay. As nasty as it was that was a lucky night.
When I see these electricians putting on those heavy black or red rubber gloves and standng on a rubber mat I know immediately to give them a wide berth. They usually rope off these areas but I still keep away. This usually means they are deep into 440 volts or more.
Ive seen enough to know you dont talk trash to electricity. Electricity is not impressed by you, me or anybody else.
Strange thing sometimes ..this magic we call electricity. Works fine and it is wonderful... but dont ever diss!! or disrespect it. It has a way of biting us back.
Agree...very expensive. I would imagine there are only a handful of companys capable of making a cable to such a specification.
You know now that I think about it...I believe some of those controllers use silver plated spade connections on the end of the wires. Very big flat connections with a hole in the middle for bolting down the flat part. They use some kind of hydraulic press or crimping tool to put them in place as they are so thick.
I usually give these guys a wide berth when they have one of those high voltage pannels open. A wide berth!! But thats just me.
Thanks,
Orangetom
I actually was on the electrical side of the house.
Look around an RAR or RC and you'll find plenty of silver contacts and plating now.
Im on the machinery side of the house. Ive seen what happens inside these switch boxes and controllers when things go wrong. Very very impressive. Ive seen cables some 1.5 inchs in diameter smoked ..even the insulation melted and the copper appeared to be crystalized off of one of these generators. Very very impressive. Everything was running fine and then suddenly everything went to crap.
The Lord was watching over us that night ..no one killed. Smoke inhalation. The navy ran thier emergency shutdown proceedures and also used thier buddy system to walk the injured to sick bay. As nasty as it was that was a lucky night.
When I see these electricians putting on those heavy black or red rubber gloves and standng on a rubber mat I know immediately to give them a wide berth. They usually rope off these areas but I still keep away. This usually means they are deep into 440 volts or more.
Ive seen enough to know you dont talk trash to electricity. Electricity is not impressed by you, me or anybody else.
Strange thing sometimes ..this magic we call electricity. Works fine and it is wonderful... but dont ever diss!! or disrespect it. It has a way of biting us back.
Also, each of these cables is going to have several layers of shielding and end up being very large/heavy/expensive.
Agree...very expensive. I would imagine there are only a handful of companys capable of making a cable to such a specification.
You know now that I think about it...I believe some of those controllers use silver plated spade connections on the end of the wires. Very big flat connections with a hole in the middle for bolting down the flat part. They use some kind of hydraulic press or crimping tool to put them in place as they are so thick.
I usually give these guys a wide berth when they have one of those high voltage pannels open. A wide berth!! But thats just me.
Thanks,
Orangetom
There have been nuclear powerplants on many US military ships for the last 50 years.
well this link is to the N/S Savannah, a merchant ship
and not a warship in the Navy, but i thought it informative.
and has informative additional links at the end of the page
... there are pics & graphics of the early years core reactors etc.
and the site also cites German, Russian, Japan as having drill ships, icebreakers and fuel tankers which are also nuclear..
and how NS Savannah is being recommissioned as a museum vessel.
especially after 911
gcaptain.com...
and not a warship in the Navy, but i thought it informative.
and has informative additional links at the end of the page
... there are pics & graphics of the early years core reactors etc.
and the site also cites German, Russian, Japan as having drill ships, icebreakers and fuel tankers which are also nuclear..
and how NS Savannah is being recommissioned as a museum vessel.
especially after 911
gcaptain.com...
reply to post by St Udio
I saw this ship tied up to a pier in Newport News, Va back in February of this year. She was moved to different places to spread round the pier costs. She stayed at this pier about a week then was moved over to Norfolk. I knew immediately upon seeing the hull shape what vessel it was
This is an early shipboard reactor design as is also the reactors in the USS Enterprise. Reactors have come along way since then. Metalurgy and design have come along way since this early reactor. I am sure this design leaves alot to be desired as compared to what is out there today. THe articles about Contaminated equipment are telling to those who have worked in the industry. I am certain that there are places on the ship...one would not want to be taking their children..even on a tour.
Although this ship did not remain operational as long as has the USS Enterprise, it would be intresting to walk around to the different areas with a counter and check the natural background in the different levels and compartments. Try this on the USS Enterprise..you Trekies ought to be impressed here.!! LOL LOL...go Captain Kirk!!
I can only surmise that at the forecasted costs of fuel...kerosene...for gas turbine ships...that the long run prediction is that Nuclear is cheaper. This should be very telling to those of you who can read between the lines.
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 7-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
I saw this ship tied up to a pier in Newport News, Va back in February of this year. She was moved to different places to spread round the pier costs. She stayed at this pier about a week then was moved over to Norfolk. I knew immediately upon seeing the hull shape what vessel it was
This is an early shipboard reactor design as is also the reactors in the USS Enterprise. Reactors have come along way since then. Metalurgy and design have come along way since this early reactor. I am sure this design leaves alot to be desired as compared to what is out there today. THe articles about Contaminated equipment are telling to those who have worked in the industry. I am certain that there are places on the ship...one would not want to be taking their children..even on a tour.
Although this ship did not remain operational as long as has the USS Enterprise, it would be intresting to walk around to the different areas with a counter and check the natural background in the different levels and compartments. Try this on the USS Enterprise..you Trekies ought to be impressed here.!! LOL LOL...go Captain Kirk!!
I can only surmise that at the forecasted costs of fuel...kerosene...for gas turbine ships...that the long run prediction is that Nuclear is cheaper. This should be very telling to those of you who can read between the lines.
Thanks,
Orangetom
[edit on 7-6-2008 by orangetom1999]
Although this ship did not remain operational as long as has the USS Enterprise, it would be intresting to walk around to the different areas with a counter and check the natural background in the different levels and compartments. Try this on the USS Enterprise..you Trekies ought to be impressed here.!! LOL LOL...go Captain Kirk!!
Natural background is natural background no matter inside or out. So the readings on the meter would be the same on the ship or off right?
Or do you mean above background counts?
Originally posted by Hugues de Payens
Natural background is natural background no matter inside or out. So the readings on the meter would be the same on the ship or off right?
Or do you mean above background counts?
Yes I am aware of natural background radiation. I am also aware that natural background radiation for a given location has some variation to it. This can vary for a given location ...also at different times of the day or night.
I am speaking of above natural background radiation. Also for any contamination tracked about the ship..as is the case for some of our ships..other nations ships too. Leaks ..spills..etc etc.
Thanks,
Orangetom
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