Pro-Military Pro-Government Posters: Please, Zip The Lips

'Zip the lips as in shutup!?' - No. Not at all. What I will be suggesting here, is that people carefully consider the topic of a thread before assuming personal responsibility for the whole of the government or military etc. This MAY lead to less de-railed threads and personal attacks between military and non-military (or even anti-military) posters.

Obviously, ATS is an open forum for everyone. Whether we despise the government, or are actively involved in and supportive of the government, or whether we are ashamed of our military, or actively involved in the military.... it's open for everyone.

However: Threads get trashed on account of the constant defensive posturing of pro-military and pro-government posters.

Everytime a thread or story pops up which involves military personnel doing something absurd, generally, admonishment of the military will happen. Deal with it.

When such threads arise, we have dozens of pro-military posters stamping their feet : "We are not all bad people! Stop judging us!"

Understand this: You are not the subject of the thread. You may have some sort of allegiance to the military or government : but you are not the subject of the thread.

You may feel that for the wrong-doings of one military person, the whole military and you yourself are being wrongfully judged: that does not matter, you are not the subject of the thread.

You may feel it is necessary to point people out as 'anti-American' or throw around such political bias as 'anti-Bush' etc. in order to paint others as 'liberals' or 'bleeding-hearts'. Especially in instances where we are blaming the military, Bush, and the U.S. for world affairs... but that does not matter: You are not the subject of such discussions, and such rampant defensive posturing is not only tasteless but has de-railed countless threads.

Please understand, pro-military and pro-government alike, that as conspiracy theorists: we are not concerned about fragile ego's or the social complexities of being affiliated with the military. That is not OUR world.

Very often, the things that the military and government do are blatantly OPPOSED to our world view and what we think it means to be American etc.... that does not mean we are incapable of fair discussion with military members etc, but it DOES mean that we are less inclined to trust/revere the military as you might....

So please: stop derailing threads to defend the military. Stop derailing threads to defend the government. You are individuals. And adults. We, as individuals, and adults, are capable of fair judgement on our own behalf. Instead of insisting that we are judging you as a whole, you should feel free to lower your defensive guard, knowing that when we discuss Iraq: we are not discussing you. When we discuss war-time atrocities: we are not discussing you.

It is fairly easy, whether you are a Mason, a military member, or an alien (lol) to assume that you are being judged by proxy. This is a conspiracy theory forum, and we do handle such topics in that light.

But we are not here to cater to your sensitive egos. We are here to discuss your organizations because they are involved in manipulation of our society and our lives... if conspiracy theory is a battle field, we would just as likely put a sword through your sternum than consider your feelings. Please let us fight our fight, on our terms, because this is one of the few battle fields that conspiracy theorists have on the internet.

Thanks for any consideration or agreement from other members. Hopefully, other people have felt the same way and I'm not just speaking for myself.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

Hey just because they throw dogs off cliffs doesnt mean they are bad people.....

I agree. i think that if we are on the topic about a specific event then we have every right to make comparisons to similar evils that happen in the military. We all know that the military is not ALL bad....we know we know we know, quit shoving it down our throats. People in a group that do evil things reflects on the group as a whole.

Originally posted by Jeff Riff
We all know that the military is not ALL bad....we know we know we know, quit shoving it down our throats.

Exactly... We all know of great threads that were buried under dozens of 'not me' posts.

A 'not-me' post being one wherein nothing is said except, "I'm in the military, I don't do those things." "I'm a Christian, I don't believe those things." "I'm an American, we aren't all like that."

I have a few issues to discuss on this topic and I'm glad you brought this up. First off you are assuming that everyone that enters military service is a conservative. Why? Does serving ones country make one such? The fact that this comes off as such, maybe not your intent, says something about the defensive posture that military people take, being conservative or not.

I've seen the threads that you are referring to, the servicepeople are just as appalled at these actions by a few and they are trying to show that it isn't the norm, that these guys are freaks. That's derailing? They are defending their service. Is that wrong?

But we are not here to cater to your sensitive egos. We are here to discuss your organizations because they are involved in manipulation of our society and our lives... if conspiracy theory is a battle field, we would just as likely put a sword through your sternum than consider your feelings. Please let us fight our fight, on our terms, because this is one of the few battle fields that conspiracy theorists have on the internet.

THAT is a very telling, offensive minded, post. You speak of "egos". You want to "discuss your organizations because they are involved in manipulation of our society and our lives..." It isn't "their" organizations, it's "OUR" organizations. Those that put themselves in harms way FOR YOU!!! Military persons as a whole don't make policy, that's the job of the Administration. Is it the fault of the military person, whose only wish is to serve his/her country and its people if the goal of the Admin. is not what the person actually wants?

"if conspiracy theory is a battle field, we would just as likely put a sword through your sternum than consider your feelings." Maybe you should consider that you are doing squat in comparison to our military folks. They ARE on a battlefield, not behind a keyboard.

"Please let us fight our fight, on our terms, because this is one of the few battle fields that conspiracy theorists have on the internet." I don't even know how to take that. Are you telling members to STFU? Members that are doing WAY more than you and me because you don't like it, or that you should have a free reign bitch about a few military people to the detriment of the majority?

As far as ATS policy goes, EVERY member is entitled to their opinion, inside the T&C. Even this thread, but it won't go unchallenged, also inside the T&C.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

So please: stop derailing threads to defend the military. Stop derailing threads to defend the government. You are individuals. And adults. We, as individuals, and adults, are capable of fair judgement on our own behalf. Instead of insisting that we are judging you as a whole, you should feel free to lower your defensive guard, knowing that when we discuss Iraq: we are not discussing you. When we discuss war-time atrocities: we are not discussing you.

I think the only time the 'pro millitary' people are doing the things you speak of is when people come in with one liners like 'yeah those guys are all sick' or 'it's not suprising, what else is new'.

I find it amusing you don't bring up the fact that there are 'thread derailers' on both sides of the arguement,(as with every topic) and you only seem to mention the ones you disagree with. They will always be there, but if it annoys you that much, there is an ignore button.

reply to post by intrepid


I think the OP was referring to a common tactic seen in a thread today.
The first post attacked the source, but was wrong,
then they moved onto the motivation of the source - which had little or no relevance,
then they tried to pass it off as a joke, when it was one of the most offensive pieces of news broadcasting I've seen in a while.

It IS a common way of focussing attention away from the topic at hand by bringing in issues of little relevance - known also as deflection and the intent is to derail.

Having said that, I have no problem with people expressing their views as long as it's done in relation to the subject at hand.

Personally I like to see what others have to say, but in a thread, it should be within the subject matter and that's not always the case.

I'm not talking here about someone digressing for a post or two - I'm talking about a deliberate and concerted effort to distract people from what is being discussed.

And the point of asking others to "zip their lips" on a discussion forum is....?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Yep, it's the same as the other thread - "those who disagree need not apply"

My opinion is that in order to deny ignorance, EVERY voice needs to be heard.

Otherwise we don't have all the facts, views etc and we are basing an opinion only on what we want to hear, which is embracing ignorance rather than denying it.

Originally posted by budski
I'm not talking here about someone digressing for a post or two - I'm talking about a deliberate and concerted effort to distract people from what is being discussed.

Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. The problem is, the topic "Pro-Military Pro-Government Posters..." that is where the problem is. You can be "pro-military" without being "pro-gov." And by and large the thread derailers I see are NOT military. They are keyboard warriors. Pro-Bu#es.

Support for President George W. Bush's Iraq policy has fallen among the US armed forces to just 54 percent from 63 percent a year ago, according to a poll by the magazine group Military Times.

In its annual survey of the views of military personnel, the group reported on its website that support for Bush's overall policies dropped over the past year to 60 percent from 71 percent.

*snip*

Military Times, which publishes popular magazines for each of the US military branches including Army Times and Navy Times, cautioned that its poll, of 1,215 active-duty servicemen, is not necessarily representative of the military as a whole.

The respondents were "on average older, more experienced, more likely to be officers and more career-oriented than the military population."

But the declining numbers for Bush tracked other polls. According to the CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll, support for Bush's performance as president fell from 49 percent to 43 percent over the year to December 22.

The Military Times poll also showed a significant decline in the armed forces' views of US military policy and management.

www.breitbart.com...

I can't help but think that this post was generated as a result of this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

In that post, the OP of this thread used the same terms pro-gov, pro-mil, to categorize anyone who disagreed with 9/11 CT'ers. Within the past hour, I might add.

What is the purpose of this thread?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And the point of asking others to "zip their lips" on a discussion forum is....?

So we can all say "Good job!" to each other, and pat each other on the back!

[/sarcasm]

I'm sorry OP, but I was drawn to ATS because so many intelligent, diverse people are here. The best part about ATS IMO is getting to see how my view differs from that of others.

[edit on 3/4/08 by AcesInTheHole]

NWO,

While I understand your point, I think your straddling a very fine line. If all parties involved in a discussion about the military and a specific conspiracy theory that is attached to them were to avoid generalizations, then maybe you would have a legitimate gripe. However too often members blame the military as a whole for the crimes or actions of one.

The above post by Jeff Riff illustrates my point perfectly. For while giving lip service to the fact that "the military is not ALL bad," in the next sentence he states that the actions of one member reflects on the group as a whole. If this is true, then it must be true as well that the good and noble actions of one member reflects positively on the group as well, and therefore members are justified in pointing this out in threads where the negative action of one soldier is used as a justification to degrade and/or denounce the military in its entirety.

Now, I will concede that on occasion a service member may jump the gun and assume that the organization he or she belongs to, and themselves by association, are being unjustly attacked in a particular post. However, I would argue in those cases a simple, reasoned, clarification by the original poster would go a long way towards alleviating those feelings. After all isn't that what ATS, in the end, is about; communication?

You said it yourself, "ATS is an open forum for everyone" and if you expect others to respect your opinion that "Very often, the things that the military and government do are blatantly OPPOSED to our world view and what we think it means to be American" then you must respect their opinion that the opposite is true. I personally very rarely agree with the opinions that I have seen you post here on ATS, but I would just as vigorously defend your right to express those opinions in any relative forum as I am defending the right of the pro-government, pro-military members to express theirs.

-Cypher

P.S. On a lighter note, I also have to take issue with your comment about CTers not being concerned with "fragile egos". I think there is more than enough anecdotal evidence to say that "fragile egos" are most definitely not absent among CTers. Just look at the wildly different personalities and pet theories among Ufologists and 9/11 researchers and the famous bumping of heads and egos that has gone on in those field for years.

Is this a joke?
Zip my lips?
HAHAHAHAHA
Your too funny. A site dedicated to the free and open exchange of ideas, idiologies, theories, points of view, no matter how bizarre or unwieldy for those unaffected by strange paradigm, you have the gall to try to supress?
The recent disclaimer of you're not wanting a literal interpretation of what you posted just doesn't cut it.
Free-flowing exchange of ideas is why I'm here.
To deny that is to encourage ignorance.
Party on!!!
zip your lips
Reeks of fascism
edit: punctuation
continue rant: It sounds to me that you don't like the way others express themselves.
Don't follow your own advice.
I don't like what your implying. As a right wing nut job, I WANT you to keep talking.
There is never a problem with hearing the other side.

[edit on 3/4/2008 by LAUGHING-CAT]

[edit on 3/4/2008 by LAUGHING-CAT]

JSO, on this we are agreed,
I made the same point to the OP in the thread, but I was perhaps a little TOO diplomatic.
Although he actually had a point, his terminology was wrong IMO.

Like you, I don't really see the point of this, but I'm such a busybody I just had to stick my nose in

Intrepid
Agreed.
It strikes me that this as closed minded a view as that he accuses other of.
It's strange, because in some respects he's right, it'sjust his choice of words - I just hope we don't go down the whole disinfo agent route.
That would be just silly

[edit on 4/3/2008 by budski]

reply to post by NewWorldOver


All too often, I read things about the entire military being psychopaths and whatnot. It's easy to generalize an entire force of people, almost a million and a half active duty (correct my number if wrong), through the actions of a few. I hear things about the military being a place for psychopaths and serial killers.

It's disgusting.

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole
I'm sorry OP, but I was drawn to ATS because so many intelligent, diverse people are here.

Sure, lots of intelligent and diverse posters. It's a shame to see them squabble over issues based solely on their political or career situations...

Nobody is asking military or government employees to leave ATS. I'm simply suggesting that they not take a personal stance on every issue concerning the government or military.
-
You see that this simple suggestion alone is enough to make certain people gasp in objection and stamp their feet. Why? This is a conspiracy theory forum for conspiracy theorists. They shouldn't expect any of us to substitute defensive posturing for meaty conversation...

If you're looking for a hard time, by all means, walk through a briar patch without any shoes. But in a conspiracy theory forum, it might be helpful if military and government aficionados develop some thicker soles.

Or at least recognize that this is a conspiracy theory website and we are not here to discuss special interests. Likewise, it is extremely transparent when special interests manage to high-jack, derail or inhibit threads.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by NewWorldOver]

IMHO the only real thread hijacking that I see consistently is in the breaking news forum.

This is perpetrated by the OPs, usually frequent posters, that seem to be anti-USA, anti-Bush, anti-military.

They regularly fabricate their own headlines often completely at odds with the news link quoted to sensationalize or promote their own agenda.

I understand that this is a conspiracy discussion forum, conspiracy is an omnidirectional path that will vary from the individual perceptions.

Perhaps it's all about the points, what is the current conversion rate into EU?

NWO, did you understand the reaction you were going to get by wording your post the way that you did?
I, for one have the purple I.D. card that the miltary issues to damaged people.
I didn't want it, and I still refuse to accept the checks from the corrupt gov't.
Fortunately, my situation hasn't hampered me too much, but I do empathise with others who have given all and come home to this kind of B.S.
All I want is the truth.
Regardless of which thread I post on, I want to know.
I feel I can say with confidence that you are not an offensive type, so I ask that you refrain from the broad strokes.
oh no, I'm a fascist

Well, most of us pro-military types would just sit back and let other people bash the certain topic at hand, if most of you wouldn't bash ALL military. Like others have said, don't put everyone on the same level as the few bad eggs that slip through.

Originally posted by Jeff Riff
I agree. i think that if we are on the topic about a specific event then we have every right to make comparisons to similar evils that happen in the military. We all know that the military is not ALL bad....we know we know we know, quit shoving it down our throats. People in a group that do evil things reflects on the group as a whole.

Hmm we know that blacks/hispanic/jewish etc are not ALL bad... doesn't sound too good this way either, for us military.

I have no problems with any negative posts about the military, but I do tend to jump in when something should be discussed in the proper contexts and isn’t.

Such as this newest one.

Psychopathic Soldier Throws Puppy Off Cliff


These are our "heros"?
And people wonder why the world is starting to hate us.
Im not generalising the millitary by the example of this P.O.S,but its leaves one to wonder what else our soldiers are doing over there.
This is disgusting!

Not generalizing? I would say it is... And the only conspiracy I see with a post like this is the secret agenda of the OP that post it.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Xtrozero]