Some BURNING questions about the brain and soul!

Hi, I didn't really know where to post this so feel free to move it to where it should be.

Let me start by saying that my name is Brandon, I am 16 and I go to an arts school, so its uncommon for people at my school to really discuss this type of thing. Maybe the community can hear me out.

I was busy working away in math class earlier this week and some questions occurred to me. These questions grew to such a point that I scribbled them over my math work for that day in order to remember them. I just thought I might post them here - forgive any disorganized...stuff, this is pouring out as I write it.

So lets look at the human brain. The brain is made up of neurons and thought impulses, and it controls your body, your respiration, heart rate, vision, nerves, and just about anything else that you can think of.

Now that we have that down, look very carefully at the following sentence:

My brain controls me, I am controlled by me brain.

At first glance one might believe it to be true based upon the information already provided. Now look closer. What, exactly, is the "I" in that sentence?? The brain controls ME. What is the "me" here?

When someone speaks, the brain moves the mouth and tongue as well as vocal cords to create sound. But, what tells them what to SAY? What forms opinions and responds to outside stimulus? Its probably a deeper and more complex part of the brain.

Now is where this stuff gets amazing.

Now suppose you have been in a car accident and you have been flung to the ground outside your car. You attempt to move your right arm, but it is broken and in excruciating pain, especially whenever you try to move it. BUT!! Somewhere, some part of you knows that you absolutely have to move it to go get help!! Pain is quite simply your brain informing you of damage or near damage to your body. So the fact that someone would get up and move in that situation despite the pain is proof that something in them actually contradicts and overrides the brain!! So the brain can disagree with itself? Wait a minute, I thought that brains were specifically NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

After a long time of mulling this over I think I may have finally figured it out. Its our individuality. We start out as babies, our brains don't know anything really besides eat, breathe, and sleep. If an infant was raised in the jungle by a monkey, it's brain would not develop in the normal way. It would retain it's original instincts such as surviving, fight or flight, etc. Being brought up in an environment with weaker individuals such as monkeys, the infant would never become a full fledged individual itself.

Now consider what environment we ARE brought up in. A massive technological wonder where we have very strong individuality and live by the law the every human being is different! And this is what I theorize develops something new, an ability to separate oneself from their brain and their instincts, the way we do.

So does this mean that there is actually a part of the brain, somewhere deep down in there that is so sophisticated that it is self aware (what we perceive as "I") and considers itself a totally different entity that the rest of the brain matter around it, and can override but yet not perceive the surrounding matter, as well as the surrounding matter not being able to govern the inner matter? Doesn't that make them independent of each other??

Is there really one brain controlling the body or are there two systems that are independent of each other? Have we actually evolved to have a second brain-like system? I think we have! This is our sense of self, our individuality that looks in upon itself from third person and separates itself from everything else! The part that can because of it's individuality contradict, disagree with, and override the larger, theoretically more powerful part of the brain that in EVERY SINGLE OTHER LIVING THING WE KNOW IF IS DOMINANT!!

WHAT THE HELL IS IT!?!?!?

I truly believe that this is the soul!


Thanks,
-Brandon

Soul, Conciouss, Entity,

those are some good helpers!

Research each of them in fact let me appoint you too this link on this board, lots of good research into what you're talking about, IF you can read this much my little artsy friend =D

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm a CCNA student so I am quite familiar with many mathmatical algorithms, and I live by them. 0 = no. 1 = yes.

That's all I really need and I think that's all anything needs because it can formulate any mathmatical equation through true or false impulses, the CPU of your computer is sort of a brain, a undoubtedly, a thinking cybernetic mechanical brain.

Depending on what you're getting at, I through my own scientific evaluations have came too the conclusion there is indefinetly this "I am" part in each of us that projects our pyschi beyond our body.

Yeah the brain can "disagree" with itself since we can influence what action to take using our willpower, which is also part of the brain.

I think a more interesting mystery is where all our thoughts come from. If you sit still and try to think about what you are thinking in a calm way, its very interesting to think about why certain thoughts pop up totally unprovoked. If you try to focus on counting up for example, you will still get interrupted by random thoughts popping in.

So does the brain have a system to bring random thoughts to your attention? For what reason? Some of the thoughts are completely out of the blue as well, almost like a radio receiver picking up weak signals...

But I like thinking in this way, its interesting. You have good points in your post I think.

These random thoughts are just another part of the brain..

Provactively stress.
Amongst concern,
joy and another prodominant one imagination.

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
My brain controls me, I am controlled by me brain

Brandon, the problem with that quote is that you are assuming that "me" and "I" are not your brain. The other day I was reading a story of this guy that got attacked by a shark. The story went something like this:

He jumped to the water from a small boat. Then the shark attacked him, so he started punching it. When the shark got away, he tried to get back into the boat, that's when he noticed his left arm was missing.

Now let me rephrase that just to prove a point:

The brain signaled the legs to move in a way as to make the body land in the water. A shark stimulated the nerves on the body making them send a signal to the brain, and the brain reacted by sending a signal to the right arm so it started moving to punch the shark. That was the first priority of the brain. Somewhere along the way, the left arm was lost, part of the brain knew it(that's what's known as pain, awareness that there is something bad in the body), but it's second priority was not having the rest of the body treat the wound, but getting the body out of the water. Now, somwhere in the brain, there is a memory stored that holds all information on how to get out of the water. That memory includes using the arms. The moment that memory is released, a signal travels towards the muscles on the arm so they move, however, it didn't work work because the arm wasn't there, and the brain receives an unexpected response (the brain had no idea what the outcome was going to be, since it's the first time this happens). So the brain quickly starts organizing ideas, and soon it realizes that without the left arm the body won't be able to perform the same...

Note I never used the words "he", or "his", but the story still makes sence, because "he" was just a body with a brain.

Anyways, even if the guy had seen* that the arm was gone before attempting to get out of the water, he would still have tried to use the nonexisting arm because the brain didn't know what response it was going to get. This is what happens to a lot of people who report phantom limbs. The unexpected response is interpreted by the brain as pain.

*by seeing the arm was gone he would have increased awareness that it was gone, but it wouldn't have made much difference in the way he acted while trying to get out of the water unless he took time to meditate about the situation, but meditating about it wasn't the next priority, it was still getting out of the water.

So there you go, phantom limbs are a good way to prove that "I", "me", "he", etc, are nothing more than a body controlled by a brain.


[edit on 2-3-2008 by daniel_g]

reply to post by BlackWidow23

I don't have an answer for you but the brain is fascinating indeed. I do however have an opinion about you; since you think all this stuff at 16 years old I think you are very smart

Fantastic post Brandon

Starred and flagged

That's an interesting idea you have there...The idea there is a part of the brain that is somehow "self aware" and independent of the rest of the brain's workings...

I reckon that's about the best description of what a "soul" might be like I've ever heard...

If you're thinking this stuff at 16, I can only imagine what stuff you'll come up with later on in life....

Thanks for the post and good luck with everything in life

Peace

I actually see some misinformation here.... about how we sense things..(from daniel)


it isn't true that you touch something and it travels to the brain... this is NOT so.

They have done tests... I'm not going to find them at the moment, but I'll explain a bit..

Scientists thought that when they touched a subjects thumb for example that it would take a certain amount of time to reach the brain and thus the subject would have a sensation.

Well they mapped the brain out... found out which section of the brain was responsible for the thumb sensation and they used a special probe to 'activate' that part of the brain and thus to evoke a feeling in the thumb.

What they found was astonishing.

When they touched the subjects thumb, it showed up not only instantly in the brain, but before the subject was going to be touched.

and when they touched the subjects brain in the specific thumb section, it took a small amount of time for the sensation to actually

show itself in the subjects thumb. (So in conclusion .. it actually takes a small amount of time for the brain to send the information backwards..)

but it actually begins to feel something even before it happens...
Almost like when you reach to touch something externally.. there is

something internally from within you that is reaching back to touch it.. hrmm.. that is hard to explain.. I'll just leave it at that.. lol

The amount of information that your neurons contain is also astonishing, it is the smallest you.

They are also everywhere in your body, not just your brain. (Neurons that is) ..

I believe when we try to fit our understandings under old names it is like putting new wine in old wine-skins.

I think we should leave the word soul to die.

What we are all coming to understand is so new.. it will remake US.

Neurons I believe are self-aware, or they are simply .. pure information and as information it 'knows' all that is contains.


[edit on 3/2/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

reply to post by BlackWidow23


Now, in a non-patronising manner, I commend you on your ability to free think, especially at an age when most are self-centred and are more concerned with what ringtone should be used on their mobile phones.

I think what you question could well be what is termed as "the Id" although all explainations are based on un-proven theories, un-proven as, at present we, as a race, do not hold the technology capable of confirming the existence of such theories.

Personally, I as indeed all others cannot confirm, only speculate through rational thought, what exactly it is that separates one individuals thought reactions against anothers.

As you have come to ask these questions through self awareness and a self developing curiosity, I recommend you continue to develop your own theories as to what exactly "I" is.

Freud had his own ideas, as do many others:
Psychology 101

Heh, I'm only 18 and I think along the lines of him.

However I cannot say I was thinking of life or the universe at age 16, but more so about how too hack my videogame, which eventually gave birth too the conception of my intellegence.

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
I actually see some misinformation here.... about how we sense things..(from daniel)

lol I find this post really amusing. Can you please pin-point where the misinformation is?

First off, when you see the shark, that's called perception, there are two main theories on how perception happens: Bottom-up processing, and top-down processing. Both theories include information that has to reach the brain before a response is issued.
Source: www.simplypsychology.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk...

Second, the part where the guy loses the arm. That kind of stimuli must be detected by the periphery by use of sensory receptors. The information that's collected is then conveyed to the central nervous system(aka brain).
Source: faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu...

Note that the sensory receptros include mechanoreceptors, which sence changes in pressure. If someone is going to touch your thumb, right before he does, there will be a pressure change in the surroundings. The mechanoreceptors will fill that, so your brain will know ahead of time something is approaching you.

Phantom Limbs: Nothing more than your brain thinking it can do, or still feel something because information about what should happen is still stored in the brain. This has been proved true based on the fact that people who are born, or lose the limb early in life do not experience Phantom Limb Pain, while the ones that lose a limb when they are old enough do experience that pain. Treatment includes tricking the brain into thinking that the limb is still there, and that it's responding the way it should.
Source: www.wellcome.ac.uk...
BTW, you can create your own phantom limb just to see for yourself that it's all in the brain: mindbluff.com...

Now I don't know if it's true that information appears instantaneously on the brain or not, and note that nowhere in my previous post did I say it didn't. A source would be appreciated, else the only misinformation I see is your post.



[edit on 2-3-2008 by daniel_g]

reply to post by daniel_g


Daniel - Well what IS the brain?

To expound - yes, I assume that the "I" and the "me" are part of the brain, but I believe that the "I and me" are part of the inner sector independent of the outer sector. So it probably IS the brain, but its not part of the same system, thats what I am trying to say.


[edit on 2-3-2008 by BlackWidow23]

The study I refer to was mentioned in the movie "What The Bleep Do We Know"
I'm busy at the moment and don't have time to actually find the paper referencing my statements but theres lots more information in the movie to get started with, along with extensive interviews with the scientists providing the information and doing the experiments.

Three things:

First of all, good post.

Secondly, I believe there are experiments that have shown that conflicts can occur between the polar parts of your brain, namely the left and the right.

If I recall correctly, the left brain is what manages logic, mathematics, codes and patterns and numbers and such.

The right is the part that deals with creativity, imagination and all things 'arty'.

In a sense, and I do suggest doing some further reading, the majority of 'normal' people seem to use their left brain a lot more than their right, possibly due to social control and passivity under orders, etc.

Yet, musicians, artists and writers seem to use a little more of their right brain.

A good book to get you started is 'drawing with the right side of your brain', or something similar (and i forget the author), but a good start to your research.

Finally, I'm pretty sue (IMHO) that we are capable of 'existing' outside our physical frames, due to experiencing an out of body experiencing, further prompting me to read into this even more.

I've read a good number of books that suggests some part of us, is capable of experiencing things outside our body, like say going to the car crash scenario from a different angle, many survivors have said that seconds after a serious crash, they suddenly feel no pain and are apparanty floating unseen above the crash site looking down onto the carnage and have described scenes below them that would have been impossible to see from their trapped perspectives.

What REALLY baffles me is why are we usually always trapped inside ourselves, just what is it that keeps our consciousness or whatever trapped inside our physical shells, if we have the ability to experience out of body experiences...

Are we nothing but chemicals, electric pulses and oxygen and water, exisiting for what???
To eat and breathe and sleep...... why?

Then we develop to survive our environments... why?

We act in groups, but retain identity... unlike a bee or ant, which uses a hive mind, yet us humans build far more intricately complex systems and 'hives', yet retain individual identity... (or do we?)

If viewed from above and over a time lapse, we exist just like bee's, ants, building bridges, eating at the same time of day, caught up in routine, following the traffic to the 'honey pot'.... etc etc etc

Interesting isn't it?
Some people complain that they also have multiple personalities, Is this a fracture of the subconsciousness or have they REALLY got different opinions and idea's and tastes and attitudes.... Why???

So many questions...

Quite a bit of Buddhism is devoted to this very question. It receives it's most rigorous treatment in Madhyamaka philosophy. The final outcome of it all is astonishing. How's that for a tease?

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
The study I refer to was mentioned in the movie "What The Bleep Do We Know"

Ok, that explains a lot. Directly from wikipedia(note I usually don't like to quote from wikipedia, but this time they are providing enough references to trust them):

A moderately low-budget independent production...
...The film has been criticized for misrepresenting science[7][8][9][10] and containing pseudoscience[7][8], and has been described as quantum mysticism.[11][12]

Pseudoscience = A guess on why something happens with not enough scientific proof provided = 50/50 chance they are right or wrong = Misinformation if used as a fact.

To expound - yes, I assume that the "I" and the "me" are part of the brain, but I believe that the "I and me" are part of the inner sector independent of the outer sector. So it probably IS the brain, but its not part of the same system, thats what I am trying to say.

Ah, now I get what you are saying, the brain is a very complex thing, and there are parts of it that do not depend, and cannot be controlled by other parts. For example, say you are trying to suicide. Why do you have to jump from the 10th floor of a building, couldn't you just tell your heart to stop? So yeah, one part of your brain is not allowing you to die by not letting your heart stop, but some other part is letting you do exactly the opposite by allowing you to jump off a building.

Note that's a simple example, I have no idea how complex the brain can get, and no way to know how the brain reacts when 2 or more ideas cross(ie. when you have to make a decision).

One great example was offered by mr-lizard when he mentioned multiple personalities. Could it be a soul, or multiple souls taking over? Maybe. But I personally like to think it's not souls, that gives me a reason to live, to try and understand why everything happens when there is nothing divine, in other words, a meaning of life. I see people trying to search for that meaning with spirituality, don't know if their approach is better than mine, but hey, it's still a valid approach.

What is YOU in the brain? That would be the Neo-Cortex. The neo-cortex is you, everything you think, your personality, your consciousness, it all resides there. It even runs independently from the rest of the brain.

you know, he's onto something.

because people who are physically and mentally addicted to a psychoactive substance would never, ever get clean, not even one single person on the face of the earth, if we did not have the ability to over-ride ourselves. when an addict, or alcoholic, or whatever for that matter makes a decision to quit, changes their life, and goes through this incredibly difficult process of retraining their own brain to stop constantly fiending and craving the drug, and that is after the physical sickness from not having the drug subsides, which, if from alcohol, barbiturates or benzodiazepines .. can cause seizures, strokes, delirium tremens, and possibly death.

yet, facing the possibility of death, the individual still makes the decision to stop, at the peril of their entire life possibly, for the CHANCE to make their life better. so .. there is a fight or flight over-ride in the human being that does not exist in any other creature on this planet. and i feel it is this same fight or flight over-ride that we call free-will, which no other animal has either. and since no abrahamic religion claims that animals have souls, just humans, this makes perfect sense, because animals do not have this over-ride system. could it be that the evidence of the human spirit, soul, or whatever you'd like to call it already exists in each of us, and we see it every day? now that would be something I can suitably call the grace of God..

Originally posted by WolfofWar
What is YOU in the brain? That would be the Neo-Cortex. The neo-cortex is you, everything you think, your personality, your consciousness, it all resides there. It even runs independently from the rest of the brain.

Run independently and contradict the rest of the brain in a way that could be self-destructive to the body?? Is it really that simple??

I also think I should clarify something before we go into the religious aspect of the soul. When I said "soul" I did not mean that the soul was the driving force behind these complex contradictions, I meant that the part of the brain that creates these independent actions is what we HAVE COME TO CALL the soul.

reply to post by BlackWidow23


Excellent work, Brandon. I just want you to know that on your own, without reading Sartre, you have basically recreated one on his most famous discoveries. Which is, from Wikipedia;

en.wikipedia.org...

The basis of Sartre's existentialism is found in The Transcendence of the Ego. To begin with, the thing-in-itself is infinite and overflowing. Sartre refers to any direct consciousness of the thing-in-itself as a "pre-reflective consciousness." Any attempt to describe, understand, historicize etc. the thing-in-itself, Sartre calls "reflective consciousness." There is no way for the reflective consciousness to subsume the pre-reflective, and so reflection is fated to a form of anxiety, i.e. the human condition. The reflective consciousness in all its forms, (scientific, artistic or otherwise) can only limit the thing-in-itself by virtue of its attempt to understand or describe it. It follows, therefore, that any attempt at self-knowledge (self-consciousness - a reflective consciousness of an overflowing infinite) is a construct that fails no matter how often it is attempted. Consciousness is consciousness of itself insofar as it is consciousness of a transcendent object.

Another philosopher, Descartes, formulated the "one thing we could know for sure" and that was the famous, "I think therefore I am."

Sartre, many years later, realized as you did, "if I can think about thinking, I am not the thinker, I am that which Observes the mind."

Or, to put it another way, the Mind, or Brain, is a tool used by Consciousness itself. So "you" are 'Awareness before thought.' Or, as you have worded it, the soul.

And dont be disappointed that he thought of it too, the concept actually extends all the way back to Hinduism and Buddhism, and probably further than that, but we dont have written records. What is important is that you recognized this all on your own, and you are in the company of the worlds finest philosophical minds and mystics in doing so. No one individual has ownership of the Truth, but the ability to see the Truth yourself is a wonderful gift. And, it qualifies you as a philosopher by nature.

Now that you have come this far, I hope you read more about it, and see what the implications of that discovery are.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]