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The "Anonymous" Scientology Protest is an NSA/FBI Fishing Expedition

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posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by helatrobus
Could we have a response and clarification on some of those questions?
[edit on 28-2-2008 by helatrobus]


I think this is the key point you are referring to



I understand this is a conspiracy site and certain groups will be the target of claims. I don't have a problem with that. But when the group is made up of individuals with no leadership, each working off his/her own conscience towards a common cause then you are attacking individuals.


Heres the rub, as I see it - and please bear in mind here that I am a voluntary moderator and not one of the site owners.

Quite simply if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

What I mean by that is that if you are a part of the "anonymous" movement, and want to be identified as such then your "individual" opinions are second to your organisations common goal. You're either "anonymous" or you aren't.

Should I be offended personally when someone calls ATS mods Nazi's/OSA Agents?

Surely you have thicker skins than that?

As a member of ATS and a moderator I have been told that I'm an antisemtic Nazi/muslim loving/terrorist supporting/liberal/communist/jew hater/jew lover/ideaologist/narrow minded/bigot/anti christian/christian/muslim/left winger/right winger/coward/idiot/fool/OSA Agent.

Well boo hoo for me. People can postulate over all that stuff, but at the end of the day I'm an ATS moderator to them, so they don't care what they say. If I saw it the way you seem to there I'd be lodging a class action slander/libel suit everyday because I come on ATS.

People have opinions. They may be right, they may be wrong, but this is the internet where anyone can claim to be anything and, more importantly, this is ATS where such things get discussed.

So the inital premise of this thread is speculation, and someones opinion. They have theirs and you have yours, but no one is being personally attacked.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by helatrobus
reply to post by undo
 


Yes, your opinion is ok. You can choose what is right for you. For me personally, i don't run on fear. I run on Love.

I'm not saying that's what you are doing. It's just a lot of those comments were "what ifs" And if i let them enter my heart i may as well not walk down the street I would be that afraid.

So feel free to walk your path, i'll walk mine.

However, the discussion is not about personal opinions.

The focus at this point in time is about defamination and why it shouldn't be included in the future. Once we cleared that up then we need to get back to the discussion at hand.

And thankyou for not holding onto pride...



mob mentality has not had a good track record in times past.
that's not a matter of fear, it's a matter of reading history.
i realize the goal is noble from your perspective, problem is,
is it really if it ends up depriving people of their other basic rights,
such as free practice of their religion without interference?

if their religion (is it a religion?) is really that harmful to basic
human rights, do you think it should stop with them? what
about native american peyote ritual? it numbs the senses, dulls
the mind (afterwards), induces dangerous states of mind that
have been known to lead to accidental suicide and of course,
it's illegal everywhere else. (for the record, i think they should
just let them do their ritual but that's my personal opinion again).



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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I have been told that the items popularly known as the "Aussie Bloke Hoax" and "ET False Flag" are among the known pattern injection operations.


I witnessed the Aussie Bloke Hoax, firsthand, on the (well i guess i'd better not mention that other forum) unmentionable forum. Are you saying that was a project by a covert government org? lol are you serious? To me it sounded like a bunch of fairly smart but young people who thought it'd be funny to see how many people they could rope into their end of the world scenario.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by helatrobus
Could we have a response and clarification on some of those questions?
[edit on 28-2-2008 by helatrobus]


People have opinions. They may be right, they may be wrong, but this is the internet where anyone can claim to be anything and, more importantly, this is ATS where such things get discussed.




I haven't used a full quotes so as not to waste space. But i'll refer to it.

You can have any rules you like, but i'm just saying let us know what they are and I'm sure people will abide by them. I can only speak for myself of course. I prefer free expression, so your rules sound a lot better than the other mods.

I don't know how much you have missed but people have had large amounts of censorship applied in this discussion.
It's not that anyone's worried about the content, i mean this is a conspiracy site. No one in the greater community really takes much care for this kind of thing. Agreed.
But the thing is I would truely like to discuss this matter in a reasonable manner and my posts kept disapearing. It seems to have happened to a lot of other people too. So a mod came on and said we had to stick to the rules.

So I read the rules and it says you aint allowed to defame another member.

So I was just wondering why it's a one way street here? I was surprised that a conspiracy site could harbour such hypocricy.

So to reiterate, the attacks themselves are OK. That's Lulz material. The problem is, can't we play by the same rules?

Is it like a secret society where old members get better sway?

If so that's cool. It's the internet. Let freedom ride. But feel free to let us know so we aren't left standing with our ^%$#@ in our hands.

The question really is one of coutesty, kindly pointed to me by a man called Bill Above. I think it goes something like this:




2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.



I really am dying to get back onto this subject so can we get this resolved?

Are attacks ok or not ok?

Who is allowed to be attacked and who isn't?

What group is allowed to be attacked and what group isn't?

Just so we can get that clarified and know where we stand.

i don't want anyone to read anything into this. We are all humans. Not some faceless government or whatever. We are all anonymous because no one reveals their real name. And that's all anonymous is. Nothing more nothing less. Some have grouped on ATS and some have grouped in other areas for different causes (Or who knows maybe the same one)



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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mob mentality has not had a good track record in times past.
that's not a matter of fear, it's a matter of reading history.
i realize the goal is noble from your perspective, problem is,
is it really if it ends up depriving people of their other basic rights,
such as free practice of their religion without interference?




Yes Mob mentality is bad. Never fallen for it myself.

If my history serves me well usually this occurs and spreads like wildfire very quickly. Can be very dangerous. Better to sit down and dicuss and make sure no one's going to do anything silly. Like you said before can't control anyone, there are always individuals that will do what they will. It's all about discussing.

So that is why some people have suggested looking at [this site has been edited by a mod becuase it's aparently selling a service or recruiting] so you can see that it's far from mob mentality. You could always google enturbulation and ad another key word and see what you get. It could be scary so be carefull or it could show the truth of what has been expressed by some anonymous members here. Do you dare? Can you report back on wether you think it is a mob or not. I mean you are making public comments on something. Arethey informed. Can I ask you where you get your information from?




(is it a religion?)


It is clasified as a religion in two countries. US and Australia. Banned in Germany, France, Spain, Greece and that's about all i know. I know the Germans are trying to get it banned because they see it as a totalitarian organisation and harmfull to the democratic process. France, I beleive lists it as a dangerous cult.

It is an argument that could span a long time as what constitutes a relgion. Canabilism for example could be reffered to as a religion. Depends on who you speak too. I'm sure lots of definitions would come up here. New thread anyone? I personally see it as a destructive cult like Aum, Heaven's Gate, Children of God, Jonestown etc etc... According to most experts on the subject it is regarded as a destructive cult as well. I'm sure a quick google search will give you enough evidence to either agree or dispute. If you need links i'd be happy to.

The freemasons could probably become a religion if they wanted to and sue this web site for slander like CO$ has done so many times to it's critics.




if their religion (is it a religion?) is really that harmful to basic
human rights, do you think it should stop with them? what
about native american peyote ritual? it numbs the senses, dulls
the mind (afterwards), induces dangerous states of mind that
have been known to lead to accidental suicide and of course,
it's illegal everywhere else. (for the record, i think they should
just let them do their ritual but that's my personal opinion again).


Yes it's difficult. I agree with the US governments position. You are free to beleive as long as that beleif does not harm others.

If the belief accidently harms others that doesn't count. It has to be intentional.

So when Jim Jones orders his followers to kill their children like he did. I think that practice should be banned. I think that the process of killing babies should be stopped and once that has happened and the religion stops its abuse behaviour then it can do what it likes.

So, thats why anon members from those that are concerned about this have been stating throughout these threads . They don't wan't to attack peoples personal beleifs, they only want to make sure the administration does not harm people.

Who knows, maybe xenu did really implant humans with false memories billions of years ago and earth is a prison planet and all psychiatrists are evil aliens sent to destroy them? Sounds like Scientology has all the theories in this forum wrapped into one.










[edit on 28-2-2008 by helatrobus]



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:37 AM
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ATS is neutral in all matters. It's our membership that drives the site. We do however have rules in place to have a board that is accessible to all. That would be the Terms and Conditions of Use. These are agreed upon by EVERYONE when a person registers. I'll just post some of them so we have clarity on this matter:

1d.) Cross-Posting: You will not cross-post content from other discussion boards (unless you receive advance permission from The Above Network, LLC). You will not post-by-proxy the material of banned members or other individuals who are not members, but have written a response to content within a thread on these forums.

1 e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership at The Above Network, LLC for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not post, use the chat feature or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

2a.) Identity Spoofing: You will not impersonate any person or entity, forge headers or otherwise manipulate identifiers in order to disguise the origin of any posting.

2c.) Multiple Accounts: You will not create multiple user accounts and "talk to yourself".

2d.) Forum Gangs: You will not engaged in an organized collaboration with other members to disrupt thread topics or interrupt the flow of normal collaborative discussion.

2e.) Illegal Activity: Discussion of illegal activities; specifically mind-altering drugs, computer hacking, criminal hate, sexual relations with minors, and stock scams are strictly forbidden.

2g.) Board Wars: You will not use these boards to organize "attacks" on other boards, blogs, or discussion groups, and similarly, you will not organize such attacks against this board.

4) Advertising: You will not advertise or promote other discussion boards, chat systems, online communities or other websites on ATS within posts, private messages, avatars or signatures without prior written permission from The Above Network, LLC.

5a) Unauthorized Access: You will not attempt to access any protected sections of the message board, nor make use of any hacks, cracks, bug exploits, etc. to bypass or modify the features of the forum software or to obtain information beyond the allowed features of your account status.

5b) Cooperation: You will, if asked by myself or a moderator, cease posting any content, and/or links to content, deemed offensive, objectionable, or in poor taste by the representatives of the message board.


There is more, found in the link above, but the reason for this is because:

6b) Neutrality: The Above Network, LLC provides a forum for discussing a wide variety of subjects, but does not endorse any particular theory, opinion, viewpoint or position on any topic. Furthermore, though operating costs are supported by advertising and promotional revenue, The Above Network, LLC does not officially endorse or promote any commercial product or service.

ATS is a different internet entity and we require a much stricter code of ethics than most boards.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:36 PM
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posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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Isn't it such irony that the poster right after the T&C was discussed on the thread had to have his post removed because it contained offensive and abusive language? Note his screen name, which would lead one to think that he has ties/intentions in stride with others here.

To me, personally, this is one of the pitfalls when there is no responsibility for one's actions. Because he had no name, no standing, no feeling of "peerage", he felt free to post whatever vile garbage that he wanted.

Faceless mobs have no sense of community, and therefore it becomes easier and easier for the animal nature of man to surface. This is not true in all men, but seems to hold for far too many to endorse such practices.

I have been called to task for using the KKK as an example. I was told that by doing so, I was unfairly and meanly comparing "anon" to them. While at the time I was showing the extreme end of the behavior pattern of the faceless mob, and not slandering anyone, the example holds true.

Do you suppose that in it's infancy, right after the American Civil War, that the KKK and it's sister organizations began with good, if misguided, intentions? Were there not men in those robes that truly believed they were protecting people and a way of life? That they still stood for what was right?

But because of the very nature of being invisible to all outsiders, certain factions could take control, and the honorable nature in the most kind of these men could be subverted to unspeakable acts. This is the dark path that is always present when we dismount from the noble charger of Responsibility.

Now I will make here a disclaimer, for those who see the moderator tag on my avatar. I am a member also, and sometimes post as one. I didn't give up that right when I took on this job, and the above post is simply my own personal opinion and feeling.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by NGC2736
Isn't it such irony that the poster right after the T&C was discussed on the thread had to have his post removed because it contained offensive and abusive language? Note his screen name, which would lead one to think that he has ties/intentions in stride with others here.


Personally I have serious reservations that that member IS Anon. That post looked more like it was posted by a child having a sick day home from school. Boredom you know.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


And therein lies another problem of hiding in the shadows. Every home that burns, your torch is blamed. Just another way the mob can be manipulated.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
You won't get anyone from ATS coming onto 4Chan, suggesting that you run it in a different way, arguing about how you Sage your undesirable discussions away, screaming censorship when it happens and suggesting that OSA agents are working together to dismiss valid discussions and get them off the channel. To do so would be grossly unfair and would undermine the way that the people their do business.


I mostly only said the OSA stuff because he dismisses everything I say by saying I'm some disinformation agent, I honestly doubt he is one simply due to the fact he was registered here many months ago. but just like I can't prove I'm not from the NSA he can't prove he isn't from the OSA, and he is acting just like they would, but more likely he is probably just doing it for the fun of pissing me off.

now I do apologize for some of my brethren's crudeness, many of them are not accustomed to... well, rules of any sort. I don't think most of them were doing it intentionally.




Originally posted by undo

i know what your saying, believe me.
the problem in a nutshell is this: have you ever read a story about a person falsely accused of crimes and imprisoned, only to find out 30 years later that the person was innocent? or the people on death row who were executed by the state only to find out they didn't commit the crime they were executed for (which is one of the reasons i don't agree with the death penalty). i have seen some of these true life stories.

now i'm not saying that these people you're protesting are not guilty nor that they are guilty. what i'm saying is, this is the reason we have systems of law. if we go vigilante, we lose perspective and become puppets of even crazier people than the ones we are protesting, because without a system of checks and balances, it becomes a mob.


but the thing is, many of our grevences are things they either got off of on a technicality (ie the McPherson case), or were convicted of doing in a court of law (snow white, freakout). we just think they never stopped doing them / more people were involved (and we came to this conclusion based on evidence). we are not planning or desire any of there buildings torched or people strung up, we want convictions. we want justice. for example right now we are working with some insiders to try and get actionable intelligence on abuse of children (specifically children who were brought in from foreign countries and have had there passports taken from them so they can not leave). one of our long term strategic goals is to have there tax exempt status revoked, we are doing this by lobbying for investigations into how they got them in the first place (not simply demanding it be revoked).

I mean I don't know what you want exactly, we believe these things and we are trying to convince people by showing them our evidence, we are trying to get investigations to prove them in a court of law. we have not advocated any violence, so I... really am not sure what your point is with the mob rule stuff. did you just think we were just running around going "booo booo scientology!!!"? what do you think we are doing wrong? what would you say is a better way of getting our message across and getting justice that we feel has been denied? we are not opposed to constructive criticism, one of the major turning points of the movement was when we were given advice to stop the DDoS and other pranking attacks by Mark Bunker, someone who was opposed to our methods at the time but is now one of our strongest allies.

BTW, I would like to thank you for having a much more civil discussion on the matter than I had been getting from some others.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 05:38 PM
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Do you dare? Can you report back on wether you think it is a mob or not.


I've watched most of the videos taken of the protests. They seemed benign enough with the exception of following a scientology member to the front door of the building and assailing the individual with a battery of questions and negative comments. It reminded me of paparazzi chasing down a movie star or politician to get the scoop, but with a bit more neighborhood bullies approach: taunting, that kind of thing.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


OK so they are the rules we use, no? Can you plaese explain to all moderators to re-read their own rules.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by helatrobus
 


No need we ALL know the T&C well.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:36 PM
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I have been called to task for using the KKK as an example. I was told that by doing so, I was unfairly and meanly comparing "anon" to them. While at the time I was showing the extreme end of the behavior pattern of the faceless mob, and not slandering anyone, the example holds true.


Yes you have been called to task and rightly so. Your personal opinions are in direct violation of board rules and you are a moderator. I would suggest to site owner that the problem he experience not just in this thread but across the site is his choice and training of moderators. But that is just an opinion.

Let me explain my point of view.

The KKK is a dangerous organization and has at some times been faceless. Yes.

However there are many, many examples of faceless organizations in world history that the opposite is true. On the other side of the extreme is the French resistance for example.

To take an even more extreme version is the Internet.

The internet is made of billions of anonymous users and it is potentially dangerous. I'm sure some government agencies have been complexed at how they can control things like organized crime etc... and share your exact same opinions.

However, the internet like all places has it's fair share of rotten apples. Take the pedophile that anon exposed for example. You can never stop these people from being who they are.

So i agree with your point here. This may happen.

However, with 10,000 people marching strong on FEB and no acts like you say, shows that anonymous IS NOT any think like the KKK.

I think if you are going to defame a group on a site. At least provide some kind of evidence or reasoning.

I think this is especially important because as Bill Above has stated in his only post here. It is important that we keep to the topic and discussion that was put up by the original poster. And in doing so we should stick to reasonable arguments, not unfounded accusations.

Now this is a conspiracy site, so obviously attacking groups behind an anonymous mask is going to happen. That's freedom. It's not some faceless mob. It's concerned individuals.

In the case of anon there are thousands of ex- $cientology members that have stated that they have been subject to brainwashing, illegal imprisonment and compliance amongst other things. A lot of these members are anonymous because the church has consistently attacked them and continues to do so. We are talking about claims of being sued into forced bankruptcy, having family members disconnected, Being stalked, Harassed and defamed. For that reason they need masks.

Like anon members from this angle have stated over and over please look at the facts at hand. And when making accusation at least do so in retaliation to what they are saying instead of making baseless claims like mentioning stereotypes like “KKK”.

As Bill Above has stated and he appears to be the wisest of the mods, Stay at the subject at hand and use argument discourse in order to further your claims.

Then you won’t have people being deleted all the time. Continue to attack these people and expect a mirror to be shown your way. Being an adaptable bunch, I’m sure both ways can be played.































[edit on 28-2-2008 by helatrobus]



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by NGC2736
reply to post by intrepid
 


And therein lies another problem of hiding in the shadows. Every home that burns, your torch is blamed. Just another way the mob can be manipulated.



That is the problem of those that do the blaming. This can happen in any circumstance. And given the CO$ past history RE: Operation Freekout and Snow White, it is to be expected. But at the end of the day, people need to provide proof.

The media (and some internet groups) can go on witch hunts if they like but it is the people that watch the media that have to make up their own minds.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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Please keep all comments on topic. If you have an issue with a moderator you should feel free to file a complaint making all staff including the owners aware of your issue.

Thanks....



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by undo



Do you dare? Can you report back on whether you think it is a mob or not.


I've watched most of the videos taken of the protests. They seemed benign enough with the exception of following a scientology member to the front door of the building and assailing the individual with a battery of questions and negative comments. It reminded me of paparazzi chasing down a movie star or politician to get the scoop, but with a bit more neighborhood bullies approach: taunting, that kind of thing.


Firstly, thank you very much! You are the first person on these threads to refference and check sources in the 26 or so page history of these threads.
You should be made a moderator in my opinion for this single act.


I really feel like we are getting back on the discussion here.

So you say that out of 10,000 people whom protested
in Feb, one was "assailing the individual with a battery of questions"

OK, that is not cool.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I hope that individual is reading this thread and know how he or she is affecting others.

Did you see some of the videos which ex-scientologists star in?

Thank you once again for referencing rebuttals. You don't know how much of an opening this is.

That's all that has been asked.








posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
Please keep all comments on topic. If you have an issue with a moderator you should feel free to file a complaint making all staff including the owners aware of your issue.

Thanks....


Yes, will do that.

It feels like less deletions are being made lately, so i for one, feel free someone has heard the reasoning.

Thanks for the advice.




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