This is a honest question, really.

I mean no offence, nor do I want to mock anybody for acting in one particular way. That said, I have a truly honest question for all you who do believe that there are visitors from somewhere else on our planet.

Given that goverment does study some aspect of ET activity, what are the chances that they know absolutely nothing to begin with? Ok, that wasn't really the question, but it brings us closer to its context.

Question is this: when our goverment doesnt' succeed in getting an answer to any particular controversial question, do you always, every single time claim that there is a coverup?

For me, this opens certain points of view into research of controversial subjects.

These are:

Goverments are perfect in whatever they do, because none of their investigations about ufo's or similar cannot possibly end up in not getting an answer - there is always a conspiracy theory around.

Hell freezes over before people believing in these things come up with a theory that holds for granted that there are areas of ufology in where nobody has any single answer whatsoerver in.

Well, this sucks and gives a bad reputation to ufology.

If UFO's exist you can bet the government is aware and keeping knowledge of this secret.

If they do not exist then a huge proportion of the population of this planet is seeing things and there are not enough anti-psychotic drugs to go around.

take your pick.

Originally posted by mrwupy
If UFO's exist you can bet the government is aware and keeping knowledge of this secret.

Right. So here we go again. I am not asking any proof about any of this, but I do want to know how exactly any goverment is guaranteed to be good enough to actually get any information about these subjects?

This is exactly what I was after when asking my question. People somehow believe that goverments are actually perfect, as they surely must have all knowledge in their safe deposits or wherever. If any official that workds with goverment even mentions ufos in his personal life, people go haywire and tell everybody that there is a conspiracy. All that was done by such official was propably just saying "maybe they exist, maybe not". This one sentence obviously leads to exopolitics somehow, and fantasies go on and on.

Btw, I do believe there are life our there, but I hate it when people present their own wishful pictures of our world as fact. Only wishful thinking that I want to do is in the belief that wars can be prevented. But facts? no.

If they do not exist then a huge proportion of the population of this planet is seeing things and there are not enough anti-psychotic drugs to go around.

take your pick.

Seeing something and mistakengly assuming it to be something that it isn't has nothing to do with psychosis or mental illnesses. Read your psychology textbooks please.

Originally posted by rawsom
Right. So here we go again. I am not asking any proof about any of this, but I do want to know how exactly any goverment is guaranteed to be good enough to actually get any information about these subjects?

Same way crime gets investigated. You have fallen into an error of induction yourself, with respect, in that your assumptions include:

1. that total understanding of a limited problem is practically impossible,
2. that the alien question is a difficult subject to research,
3. that there is insufficient evidence on which to base scientific theories in relation to the alien question,
4. that governments do not habitually keep secret (or as they prefer to colloquially term it, "confidential") everything that they can,

and

5. that the government is a homogeneous entity rather than a disparate collection of power centres clustering around a central bureaucracy over which sit real hidden controllers and public figureheads.

Originally posted by DogHead
Same way crime gets investigated. You have fallen into an error of induction yourself, with respect, in that your assumptions include:

1. that total understanding of a limited problem is practically impossible,
2. that the alien question is a difficult subject to research,

Until we have enough technology to actually research this subject, it is practically impossible unless some goverment is actually participating with alines themselves. About that we have nothing but assumptions, although I believe we may have been visited.

Anything as pervasive as aliens obviously are, it becomes very difficult indeed to research that subject. Now, look.

We have photos, videos, close encounters and all that.
We do not even have the names of technologies that they use.
We do not know from where they came from, unless we were told that by them. They may have lied.

3. that there is insufficient evidence on which to base scientific theories in relation to the alien question,

I agree with this, but

4. that governments do not habitually keep secret (or as they prefer to colloquially term it, "confidential") everything that they can,

Not all goverments believe that everything that can be kept secret is kept secret. There propably are such persons in each goverment, but that doesn't dictate the way some goverment works.

5. that the government is a homogeneous entity rather than a disparate collection of power centres clustering around a central bureaucracy over which sit real hidden controllers and public figureheads.

Here, we should make clear abotu what particular system we are talking about. There are countries in our world that don't have secret controllers of things.

I've had a long-standing debate with a friend about whether something as monumental as alien contact could ever be kept secret by a government. My friend claims no such event could remain secret very long. At some point someone with this intimate knowledge would tell someone outside the inner circle. People have a deep desire to share a secret.

I take the opposing view and believe that the more significant the secret, the easier it is to keep. Whether it's a sense of belonging to a conspiratorial clique, or fear of retribution, or sense of patriotism, I believe people tend to keep the biggest secrets secret. If knowledge is power, then the truly big secrets represent ultimate power.

At least in the past 30-40 years, the more credible UFO waves have tended to include sightings of black helicopters, or have occurred near military bases. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'm not saying that UFO=military or that our government completely understands the phenomenon and is covering up the truth. But I do believe the government knows a great deal more about these events than most of us would be willing to suspect.

The government has incredible resources to throw at any investigation. They have total access. Unless aliens decide to annouce their arrival to all humanity at the same time, we must conclude that government will know first.

Originally posted by mrwupy
If UFO's exist you can bet the government is aware and keeping knowledge of this secret.

If by UFO's you mean alien craft, why do you think the government must know about it?

If they do know, then that means aliens failed to mantain their existance a secret, even though they were dealing with inferior beigns. Or maybe it means that the aliens only want the US government to know about them, but not anyone else, or maybe they want all humans to know about them but the US government is covering it up, although the third one I find really hard to believe, since there is no possible(or at least logical) way that the US government could control what aliens want to do.

To a point, secrets can be kept. I agree that much. A few situations came into my mind.

Anybody with a taboo sexual reference will keep it secret from others.

Any person who has a religion and lives in an environment where such is not tolerated will keep it to himself.

Somebody with a desire to do something not allwed by law and in particular looked down by other citizens.

All of this share one common thing. There is always somebody who does know, be it victim of any sort of assault, sex partner or other people sharing your religion in such environment (you can't really believe in something that nobody gives you any information about).

So, taboos are well kept secrets that are shared to a minimum possible amout of people.

I believe these are the only kind of secrets that can be kept for a long time, but eventually, most will come into consciousness of other people.

Now, ufo's are another thing. It is not a taboo to talk about such things, but it is also not very wise to go in your local market shouting along about what the truth is.

In my opinion, everything not a taboo cannot be kept a secret for a very long time, but philosophies and thought patterns can be given in a form that for many, appears to be a taboo although it isn't.

When an event occurs that suggests other worldly involvement, it's usually a few witnesses on the seen first.

Then, the military may get involved and close the area off (and leave you with various reasons like swamp gas).

The original witnesses then spread the story of what happened, others go to try to confirm it and are net by the military turning them away. This creates suspicion. Other people may have seen/heard something but hadn't yet made a connection to the original witnesses. The true story strengthens.

Meanwhile, the military talks to the government, the government to the press.. and it's all swamp gas.

As for proof, the military and government are generally the only ones with the equipment to take readings and measure the environment or take any objects away from a scene in double quick time.

So , what makes people thousands of miles away question the possibility of a government cover up.

REASONABLE DOUBT... that's what does it. If X amount of witnesses said they saw/heard something they couldn't explain yet the government says it was swamp gas, this leaves a lot of questions un-answered, the main one being 'who's telling the truth?'

It is very easy to keep a secret.

How?

Tell everyone! ... Just make sure no one believes you, and discredit and mock those who do.

If you get it just right... well, any leaks or whistleblowers will be buried under an avalanche of disbelief, hostile skepticism, hoots of derision, and rolling of the eyes while pointing the finger at the head and waggling it... all this from the very people you're trying to keep the secret from.

At a guess, looking at the state of play, they got it VERY right.

reply to post by rawsom
George W. Bush and his entire administration. Richard Nixon and his entire administration. John F. Kennedy assassination, and then Bobby Kennedy, and all these people were killed by "delusional fans" or crazed "militants"(in the case of John Lennon). Anyone who has ever preached peace has been shot and killed, anyone with a resonating message of hope has been removed in one way or another...There are SO many ways to kill someone and make it look like something else. And a fall guy can always be found. Disinformation is a proven conspiratorial tactic used by many covert operations throughout the world. Trillions, that's right, trillions of dollars just dissolve into thin air all the time, and you don't hear a word of it. The last time anyone ever complained about trillions missing was the Pentagon 1 day before 9/11, which now has us locked in a needless war for the sole purpose of turning a profit, and the only good this is doing is for the rich assholes on top of you and me. They are so separated from the rest of the world that calling them alien, whether or not they're human, is appropriate. These people do not suffer or struggle like you and I do. These people do not have to worry about loss, their only concern is control and wealth to keep the control machine oiled. Tell me that's not a conspiracy, the real owners of this country don't give a rats ass about you. They are sitting atop corporate towers surveying all that they own, and all that they seek to own, and all that they seek to crush, and whatever agenda fits their profit margin. Does that not sound like conspiracy? Because to do this they have to buy our government, and there IS proof of that. It's all around you, every senator, president, and administrator and CEO is more corrupt than a windows system file with few exceptions, but they get shot when they get too loud. There is conspiracy, life has turned out to be a well documented but not easily swallowed conspiratorial reality and they will do their best to make sure you know nothing. Their is always another piece of the puzzle, another stone to turn over, another i to dot and t to cross, because it is a convoluted game of cat and mouse, except in this game, unlike in nature, the mouse is a well funded fascist, and wholly corporate entity. They will tell you that people like me are nuts, or misinformed, or that something is fake, or call it swamp gas. This is not to say that everything that happens is conspiratorial. But history throughout time has proven otherwise in many cases.

We have to ask these questions, because many times they are true. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. And to assume that an entity so well funded and so well equipped and so brilliantly staffed in many cases, could not be capable of conspiracy on a vest scale is pretty naive at best. We have to ask ourselves what drives us to to ask these questions. You have to wonder because if you don't you may not figure out until it's too late, who is playing the cards...And what is at hand. Figuring out that everything you thought you knew is false is not nearly as bad as being fooled into working for a cause you know nothing of and may very well disagree with. They may be playing with things they know nothing of and hurt alot of people in the process. This is why these questions must be raised.

Here's something that is recent you should mull over thoroughly:

Bush Administration Outing of CIA Agent

You write well and have propably thought about these things alot. Your level of tying things to each other doesn't emerge by chance alone.

I just want to say that I know there are certain conspiracies going on in our world, but also that there are way too many people believing that there is a conspiracy under every frigging rock they can see.

I respect your worry about your homeland, but your post is also too much yet another rant by somebody who thinks that USA is all the world there is. Although I believe there's a glimplse of understanding things in grand scale on your post, this focus on any particular country troubles me a lot. Maybe it is because some people from USA actually do think they are the police who should be watching over everybody's shoulder. Hopefully you still understand and believe that there really are some honest goverments on other countries left.

It is explicitly obvious to everybody who follows the money, that there are specific organizations and family trees involved in all the places where big money is present. I don't know how a new company manifests itself as grand power in this schema, maybe it doesn't (microsoft and google come into my mind). Are those born controlled? Sometimes, but that doesn't last forever. Could somebody have enough money to buy them? no.

I don't have the time to write more at this point, but I will try to keep and open mind with people of intellect and reason, such as yourself.

You should know that I wasn't born in the United States, I just live here. And I have been to a place or two to say the least. And the reason why I use the United States as the basis is that those who truly run the US are using the power they have to influence the rest of the world. The US is the most globalized nation on Earth and that didn't happen by accident. It also happens to have the best possible military equipment known to man. And they're clandestine programs are famous for it's outstanding levels of secrecy. Gotta work with what I got.

Originally posted by rawsom
Question is this: when our goverment doesnt' succeed in getting an answer to any particular controversial question, do you always, every single time claim that there is a coverup?

Well - the simple answer to your question in general is because this is a conspiracy theory website.


But for me, personally, it's "evidence" of a government cover-up that provides the strongest confirmation that something really is going on... I put the term in quotations there because I'll admit it still is somewhat anecdotal (or at least subjective to interpretation) but when you add it all up I really just start to believe where there's smoke - there's fire.

I mean - we know the UFO phenomenon is real. Whether it's little green men, mis-interpretations of swamp gas, or mass hysteria - we do know thousands of cases of unidentified-"somethings" are reported every year. We know the U.S. government did an official investigation on it, and concluded "officially" there was nothing to see here, everybody move along...blah blah blah (even though the main investigator himself became convinced there was "something" being seen in a certain percentage).

Now take a look back at all the documented UFO cases of the last 60 years and notice that all the relatively minor ones are usually "officially" ignored or dismissed - but the ones that are a little harder to sweep under the rug always seem to come with some sort of lame excuse from the government:


Roswell:
It's a UFO!!...no, wait, it's a weather balloon!...no, wait it's a really super-special TOP SECRET weather balloon that we couldn't divulge for 50 years because we don't want our enemies matching our advanced weather balloon technology.

1967 Malstrom Missile Incident:
Your own soldiers, who are in charge of DEFENDING a nuclear weapons facility, and should thus be persons sound of mind, claim to see a UFO. At the same time, said nuclear weapons (which are there to DEFEND the country) mysteriously and inexplicably go offline and stop working. Official Government response: "This incident is of no concern to national DEFENSE". ...GUH??

Rendelsham Forest Incident:
Same deal, your own soldiers - including your base commander - swear they saw, even touched a UFO. You call them crazy and downplay the incident as of no concern to national security. Fine, fair enough - but maybe it's time to re-evaluate your psychiatric screening process before hiring these people and promoting them to things like base commander then?

Phoenix Lights:
Hundreds of witnesses, including the Governor of Arizona, say they saw a huge CRAFT. Military - "nah...it was flares ya goofs!"

O'Hare Airport:
Again, many credible witnesses see a frickin' spinning disk which hovers for a while and then shoots up through the clouds and leaves a frickin' hole. FAA - "...weather phenomenon?"

Stephenville, Texas:
This is the case that's really sealed the deal for me because the response was so predictable. First when it was a minor issue, they tried to do the whole dismiss/ignore/sweep under rug thing - then when it wouldn't go away they suddenly "remembered" they had 10 f-16's training in the area - even though they've never trained there before and aren't supposed to. When this thing was discussed on Larry King, even the skeptic pretty much admitted something was being covered up - just that more likely it was top secret military aircraft.


So you asked "when the government doesn't succeed in getting an answer" why claim cover-up?

Because in that case they should just "officially" shut up. It's all their lame explanations and backpedaling that make them harder to believe than the supposed UFO nutcases they're trying to discredit. A few of these cases on their own I could ignore but like I said - where there's smoke, there's fire -


and there sure is a lot of smoke being blown our way.

Conspiracy is something known to happen commonly among people of all walks of life. It would seem reasonable to me that if you can add up the numbers you can get a result. And usually the "Debunkers" are the most guilty of being uninformed of the facts, or their willingness to ignore certain data, as to make the story fit. It is well documented in the CIA mind control project. can't remember the name of it.

reply to post by projectvxn


You make very good points. It seems to me that you really pay attention to what people are doing in this country. People in this country have a ridiculously low attention span and tend to forget about things as soon as the new distraction comes along. It is truly a convoluted cat and mouse game. And it is something that I fear may bring America and the world to it's knees one day.

Originally posted by Someone67
reply to post by projectvxn

 

You make very good points. It seems to me that you really pay attention to what people are doing in this country. People in this country have a ridiculously low attention span and tend to forget about things as soon as the new distraction comes along. It is truly a convoluted cat and mouse game. And it is something that I fear may bring America and the world to it's knees one day.

And any one potential clandestine operation gone awry, or gone too far, has the potential of affecting America in a way that might cause severe international response. And that scares me. I'm afraid of America finding itself alone one day, and backed into a corner.

I dont think that keeping a secret is that difficult, if you lay it out right, use psychology and use people to distribute this , and then riddicule any for believing in such things.

The Stealth bomber, how long was that one a secret? Lots of rumors though.
And this was a thing the U.S was going to use and that is probably why we know about it today.

reply to post by projectvxn


BRAVO!! America needs someone like you . We need a President like you !

Originally posted by rawsom
It is explicitly obvious to everybody who follows the money, that there are specific organizations and family trees involved in all the places where big money is present. I don't know how a new company manifests itself as grand power in this schema, maybe it doesn't (microsoft and google come into my mind). Are those born controlled? Sometimes, but that doesn't last forever. Could somebody have enough money to buy them? no.

You have to read 'The Biggest Secret' by David Icke if you haven't done so already. This book provides the most thorough explanation of bloodlines and positions of power that you'll ever read. You also should make sure you've watched and read The Disclosure Project material - as much of Dr Greer's work covers the secrecy, why governments continue to cover up the UFO phenomenon. And lastly, you need to go to the Project Camelot website and watch the Richard Hoagland interview to get a feel for the parties involved and how the 'big lie' is constructed. Hoagland basically concludes that even the 'big boys' that have the bulk of the geopolitical power in the world have been lied to or deceived somewhere along the line - this is an essential ingredient in burying the secrecy.

Together, researching these three areas thoroughly will give you a better grounding in the issues involved in 'government coverup'. Personally, I believe that the 'government' as we Joe Citizens know it, don't know a heck of a lot when it comes to UFOs. Again, the beauty of compartmentalisation, as Richard Hoagland says. And the very few people who supposedly knew about it, such as JFK, ended up killed for it (among other reasons too, such as his plan to abolish the Federal Reserve and rid corruption within the shadow govt ranks). Of course, there isn't a conspiracy 'under every rock', but I'm certain there's one fat huge one at the heart of our origins which is the principal reason religion was brought to our world - to distort and hide the truth from us. The biggest lie is bigger than all of us.