It's that time again. We have to address the conduct in this forum.

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One of the important points of this thread is to remind our members to focus on the topic and not each other.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by SkepticOverlord]

Originally posted by PartChimp
There are several ways to disagree without falling to the level of five year olds. Like this, perhaps:
Originally posted by twitchy
...anti-semite......discrimination...anti-semite...labeled...

Very good, insulting, subtly accusatory, completely irrelevant, and doesn't fail to mention anti-semitism to equate it with anti-masonry.
I'll bet you would wonder why my response to your less than affectionate post would be an angry one.

reply to post by twitchy


Look at what it got this poster. Tolerance is real low at this point.

As was said, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
"the brethren" .. is a term to describe all Masons.. "Members of the Craft" or what have you.. since we call eachother Brother, the Brethren is the collective Brothers as a whole...

Well, of course it's not creepy to you, lol...personally I just associate it as kinda like a cult language, probably too many movies or something. As for members of the craft, just a question out of curiosity, does one have to actually be into masonry and build things to join the fraternity? I was under the impression they didn't...

Originally posted by 27jd
As for members of the craft, just a question out of curiosity, does one have to actually be into masonry and build things to join the fraternity? I was under the impression they didn't...

God help us all if we were. Mike Holmes would have even more business than he does already

The ones that can actually work with stone and such? They'd be known as "operative" Masons. Freemasons are what's known as "speculative" Masons.

reply to post by intrepid


Thanks Intrepid.

It is my belief that pointing out the consistent and repeated behaviors of an individual member is not on par with attacking, defaming, or otherwise injuring said member, however.

I will call a spade a spade, even in an open thread. If you will note, more especially in the obelisk thread, and speaking to my own posts, when any member was mentioned by name, the focus was that person's posting habits, not that person. There may be exceptions, but for the most part I did my best to provide facts to support my posts and to avoid commenting on other members personally, preferring to attack their posts and sources instead. This seems reasonable to me.

Question: If I am a Mason, and someone says "Masons are pedophiles and satanists, and they all smell like feet," wouldn't that be considered a personal attack and/or insult?

If someone said "All prison guards (or Canucks, if you prefer) beat their wives and are incredibly stupid," wouldn't you take that as an affront?

Same thing.

That being said, there is usually a way to make what you intend to say more palettable, and we should do that when possible.

However, while we're talking T&C's, the simple fact that the thread that spawned this one was allowed to go on so long is part of the problem.

One can only repeat oneself, clarify positions, and post supporting facts and sources -- only to have them dismissed or ignored -- so many times before one becomes irritated and perhaps marginally hostile.

Add to that to members whose sole joy in life seems to be goading and poking and prodding certain members to the point where that marginal hostility emerges, only to turn around and say "see how mean they are?" -- and you have a recipe for a meltdown.

Add that to the fact that you, Intrepid, have moderated this forum, which isn't even assigned to you (that's kudos, in case that wasn't clear), more than any of these: WyrdeOne, benevolent tyrant, HarlemHottie, lombozo, yeahright, and Sauron.

I have yet to see one single moderation action in this forum from any of these people. Usually it's you and Mirthful Me, and I've been here for a while. I've gotten one (1) u2u from BT regarding moderation, and little if any presence in this forum from any of the others -- at least lately.

It seems that this has been noticed, so that's all I'll say about it, other than I think that action should have been taken earlier against those participating in baiting or otherwise inflaming the thread with no meaningful contribution attached to it.

Cuhail: We have already had people complain that the Masons' posts get stars just because a Mason posted it... so while it seems to a reasonable person to be a good solution, it only gives them something else to attack us for.

We're damned if we do, and we're damned if we don't.

Regarding Applause: I have been applauded 23 times since my return to ATS earlier this year; 22 of those have been from the SS forum, and most of those from one particular thread where I got multiple applause from multiple mods (Intrepid, I think, has given me the most altogether). I'm not an applause whore but I did notice that when I poked my head out of this SS forum, I got an applause within just a few posts.

I know SS is the "black sheep" of the ATS forums -- but, we're people too.

P.S. Thanks for the props Augustus.

[edit on 1/31/08 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Question: If I am a Mason, and someone says "Masons are pedophiles and satanists, and they all smell like feet," wouldn't that be considered a personal attack and/or insult?

If someone said "All prison guards (or Canucks, if you prefer) beat their wives and are incredibly stupid," wouldn't you take that as an affront?

Same thing.

I don't feel insulted by what people say on the internet. I used to but I realized that by letting them get into my head that they gain a modicum of control over me. Believe me, I get more static being a staff member than anyone does for anything else. M'eh. Ducks back.

Add to that to members whose sole joy in life seems to be goading and poking and prodding certain members to the point where that marginal hostility emerges, only to turn around and say "see how mean they are?" -- and you have a recipe for a meltdown.

See my statement above. If you don't allow it to get to you, you take the yeast from their bread. Recipe fails.

Add that to the fact that you, Intrepid, have moderated this forum, which isn't even assigned to you (that's kudos, in case that wasn't clear), more than any of these: WyrdeOne, benevolent tyrant, HarlemHottie, lombozo, yeahright, and Sauron.

I have yet to see one single moderation action in this forum from any of these people. Usually it's you and Mirthful Me, and I've been here for a while. I've gotten one (1) u2u from BT regarding moderation, and little if any presence in this forum from any of the others -- at least lately.

Some have limited time to offer and put themselves into forums where they can do their best for ATS. Me? I have no life so I can spread myself around. There's new blood here now, this will change.

Regarding Applause: I have been applauded 23 times since my return to ATS earlier this year; 22 of those have been from the SS forum, and most of those from one particular thread where I got multiple applause from multiple mods (Intrepid, I think, has given me the most altogether). I'm not an applause whore but I did notice that when I poked my head out of this SS forum, I got an applause within just a few posts.

I believe I also gave you that red flag too. Neutrality.

I know SS is the "black sheep" of the ATS forums -- but, we're people too.

SS isn't only about Masons, seems like it at times but there are other topics as well. SS isn't a Masonic forum, just one that many of the posters here happen to be Masons. Believe it or not there as some Masons here that do not want to be involved in the discussions in this forum. I can sometimes see why.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Ah, thanks for clearing that up. It's something I've wondered about for a while...

Rockpuck. As long as it stays civil, go with how you normally post. I think I have yet to see you uncivil and rude or even lose your cool. It's all good.

I'm not making law here with the star thing. It was a suggestion. If it's no good, it's no good.

I think it all comes down to just hitting that alert button. If you see the unruliness brewing, let us know. I, myself, Mod ten forums and FSME one. I'm all over the site. The alerts tell us what's going on while we're elsewhere. If I'm checking a 9/11 thread, I have no idea that the SS thread is three-posts-deep with mud-slinging. The alert tells me "Go to the SS forum, there's a problem". Bam, next stop.

Don't take on the insults. Pass them on. YOU know your not a satan-worshipping sheep lover. Chances are, so does the person that said it. But, it's obviously a baiting tactic, and it's our responsibility to cut the line.

Be alert (this world needs all the lerts it can get)

Cuhail

reply to post by The Axeman


Once you repeat yourself to the point of frustration, leave it alone. Beating a dead horse is a waste of time for man and horse, and tedious to passer-bys.

It's like drinking. Know your limit, and quit one post before you reach it.

Originally posted by intrepidI don't feel insulted by what people say on the internet. I used to but I realized that by letting them get into my head that they gain a modicum of control over me. Believe me, I get more static being a staff member than anyone does for anything else. M'eh. Ducks back.

Whether you feel insulted by it or not is not the issue. It is an attack and an insult, it's hateful, and according to the T&C's, it's forbidden here. This is supposed to be a place to deny ignorance, not ignorantly deny as some do (present company excluded).

If we're going to talk about T&C's we need to talk about equal enforcement too.

If I let all the anti-Mason crap "get to me," I would be in really bad shape. Granted, I've lost my cool a time or two but you can count the times on your fingers, and I've been posting here since 2004. My concern is not so much for my feelings as people who see those posts and accept them as fact because no one is saying different. I am that someone saying different.

See my statement above. If you don't allow it to get to you, you take the yeast from their bread. Recipe fails.

Again I say their preheating the oven is a violation of T&C's, whether it gets to me or not.

Some have limited time to offer and put themselves into forums where they can do their best for ATS. Me? I have no life so I can spread myself around.

There's new blood here now, this will change.

Glad to hear it. And no offense to the other mods; it was just an observation, not a judgement.

I believe I also gave you that red flag too. Neutrality.

Indeed you did! And others to match it in the past, too! Thus, you can also attest to the fact that when I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

SS isn't only about Masons, seems like it at times but there are other topics as well. SS isn't a Masonic forum, just one that many of the posters here happen to be Masons. Believe it or not there as some Masons here that do not want to be involved in the discussions in this forum. I can sometimes see why.

Oh I believe it! Hopefully at least they read them and if they felt that one of us was out of like they would tell us so. I have yet to recieve a message like that though.

You have seen it: I along with others have tried to get discussions going about other groups... the Masons here generally do not dictate the flow of the threads; we are typically always on the defensive and no one seems inclined or interested much in doscussing other groups -- which is unfortunate in my opinion... so many distracted from the world's real problems.

P.S. I didn't mean "we" as in Masons; I meant "we" as in people who post almost exclusively in SS. Probably only mostly Masons.

[edit on 1/31/08 by The Axeman]

Thanks for this reminder.
I came here to find real stories and serious debate.I hate wading through the sand kicking to find the "smart stuff".
There are many knowledgeable members at ATS and seeing their threads brought down disappoints me.
I understand what a Mod has to go through because I was one for over a year on another site.I must say you guys do a great job of keeping the site respectable.

reply to post by 27jd


Err.. ya I could see that. A bunch of guys calling each other Brother this, Brother that, Brethren and so forth.. it is a method of isolating ourselves from everyone else and expressing the commonality of Masonry.

Now.. if you think me calling Masons The Brethren... you should hear our officer names! Really sounds like a cult then.. Of course though, its all innocent. I think Masonry comes off in such an .. odd manor compared to the rest of society, is where people develop their deep seeded hatred.. not that it is a good excuse, at all, but I don't doubt quite a bit comes from things like weird titles and names and words like Brethren.

Cuhail:

Don't take on the insults. Pass them on. YOU know your not a satan-worshipping sheep lover. Chances are, so does the person that said it. But, it's obviously a baiting tactic, and it's our responsibility to cut the line.

Do I know that? ..... Do you REALLY know that?
A wise man once said (hes a staff member.. hes a Mason... he likes Monkeys.. perhaps to much..) People are who they want to be on the internet.

I try not to judge peoples actual person over the internet, while some people do open them selves like a book, most cannot be discerned through a computer.

If the masons on ATS want to know why your craft is so disliked and untrusted... your behavior in this forum is a shining example of why.

The masons disruptive presence in this forum makes a mockery of ATS, and those seeking the TRUTH about your craft. The Secret Societies forum on ATS is by far the weakest link in the ATS chain because of masons gang mentality, and how they attack anyone who does not agree with their point of view.

Any member searching for the truth about masons, will not find it here... and that is a shame that stains the entire site.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I think Masonry comes off in such an .. odd manor compared to the rest of society, is where people develop their deep seeded hatred.. not that it is a good excuse, at all, but I don't doubt quite a bit comes from things like weird titles and names and words like Brethren.

I don't hate you guys at all, I just don't really get it, lol. Either way, I personally wish people weren't so focused on more division and isolation, and more focused on unity. Imagine the good that could come if the world wasn't divided into so many factions, like race, religion, nationality, culture, etc., and lodges too I guess, lol. Everybody is usually so sure that everybody else is against them, so naturally the paranoid among us think you guys are up to no good, because they're not in on it, right?

Originally posted by yankeerose
If the masons on ATS want to know why your craft is so disliked and untrusted... your behavior in this forum is a shining example of why.

I have found that the Masons on this site have been - for the most part polite, helpful, intelligent and ready to answer any question another member may have about Freemasonry in a direct and truthful manner.

On the other hand, I see posts that are awfully accusatory posted by anti-Masons. They start off jumping all over the Masons and Masonry. Your post here seems to be yet another 'shining example' of this.

I'm not defending Masonry or attacking the antiMasons, just pointing out that - if looked at with neutrality - the antis seem to always snipe Freemasonry while the Masons on the board don't.

The masons disruptive presence in this forum makes a mockery of ATS, and those seeking the TRUTH about your craft.

Seems to me that asking a Mason about the Craft would be the most direct route to TRUTH.

Attacking Masons and calling them a 'disruptive presence' for quickly and accurately answering said question truthfully would seem to be more along the lines of not seeking the TRUTH.

Any member searching for the truth about masons, will not find it here... and that is a shame that stains the entire site.

That's patently false. It would be far more accurate to write that "any member searching for a Mason to agree with them about something that is inaccurate or untrue about Masonry will not find it here."

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by mmmeat

Any member searching for the truth about masons, will not find it here... and that is a shame that stains the entire site.

That's patently false. It would be far more accurate to write that "any member searching for a Mason to agree with them about something that is inaccurate or untrue about Masonry will not find it here."

Your pal,
Meat.

Thanks meat. You just showed what is wrong with this forum. I didn't warn you for this post because it was such a good public service announcement.

This carnivore is considering a vegan way of life.

Originally posted by yankeerose
Any member searching for the truth about masons, will not find it here... and that is a shame that stains the entire site.

So, "Truth" is anything that casts Masonry in a bad light, and any facts or opinions expressed that refute, question, challenge, or otherwise discount those claims of your so-called "truth" are offensive and a "shame that stains the entire site."

Why are you even ON ATS?

People who think like that will never cease to amaze me. Less about the material presented, more about who is presenting it...

That mindset is what is truly sad and, in my opinion, represents a stain on our entire society.



[edit on 1/31/08 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by twitchy
If I thought it would do any good, I would formally request the Obelisk thread be reopnened, moderated to exclude personal attacks just like every other thread on the site, and an inquiry into Intrepid's pro-masonic stance and it's increasingly obvous bearing on his moderation of the SS forum.

He directly invited you to submit a complaint. If you're really serious about it, you will and will be able to convince reasoned individuals that you are the one in the right and Intrepid in the wrong.

reply to post by twitchy


This is a classical anti-mason tactic. When the anti-masons become so disruptive that action has to be taken, they immediately come out and accuse them of being "pro-mason." Its especially interesting in this case, since the poster admitted from POST 1 that he was BAITING and got away with it for 20 pages. Does anyone notice that the other side does nothing like this? I have yet to see any mason come out and decry the mods as being "anti-mason" whenever they have to take actions against a mason who is being disruptive. Why is this?

Because we don't have an agenda. We are not in an attacking position. We are here to discuss various secret societies, and - when they come up - talk about our own institutions - which we would obviously know something about. But we are put on the defensive against constant attacks and any look at TWITCHY'S post history would show that. Its very easy to attack when no one else is attacking you back.

Are masons perfect? No. But its hilarious some of the things that we are accused of.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]