Guns, Why do many countries not trust there citizens with them?

reply to post by Ioseb_Jugashvili


I hope it never happens, but one day you may need a gun to protect yourself and you wont have one.

The US is far far from being a Democracy and Australia too.
Follow the money my man for you will find evil that will make you $hit yourself



[edit on 8-5-2008 by Herbal Oli]

Because, the gov does not want us to be armed. The 2nd amen give us the right to bear arm. Because, they had just had to fight to come here and start over. But some of the same people that were a problem came with them. So just encase they started back with their old ways, we would be armed and could fight back without having to leave again. Now think about that. If the people armed were to fight back, what would the now gov do. Maybe they would do what we put them in office to do. Not what makes them the kid with the most toys at the end of the day.

Originally posted by hpsfl
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

I've SHOT a AK-47 on full-auto at the local army base (Some soldiers owed my dad a favour) It's horribly innacurate becuase of the floating barrel, which flies all over the place.

Which brings us back to the question...

Why do civilians need Automatic firearms?

None that I can see. I dont want one... (though would like to shoot one at the range once in a while).

However I also can see that banning them will not solve anything, that it is arbitrary and unecessary.

I cede to the valid point that stricter control is needed over firearms. Kids should not be allowed to buy guns, but they should be allowed to shoot them in safely supervised conditions. Anyone on mental health medication ought to be stringently checked also, and anyone with a past crime should be barred.

reply to post by Phattdragon


Okay look.

The government, which all you paranoid folks is out to kill you, isn't going to just shoot at you with guns. They'll use Abrams, Napalm, Apaches, Bradleys, Aircraft Carriers, B-52's, AT4's, Blackhawks, MOAB's, Cluster Bomb's, F-22's, etc, etc, etc. Your pathetic romanian AK clone isn't going to do # against the government. And if you do, ex, kill a whole platoon of marines, they'll probably send a tank, or call in an airstrike. Good luck shooting down a F-22 with you AK clone.

And your only reason you can think of owning automatic firearms, is because you think the US governemt is going to kill you all?

Try getting out of the basement every once in a while.

reply to post by hpsfl


Thats funny... the Mahdi army in Iraq seem to be holding off the entire military might of the USA with AKs and Dragunovs.

You have wholely misunderstood the concept of asymmetric warfare my friend!

The point is that no government is going to want to wholesale slaughter their own people- then they would have nobody to rule over.

Having a rifle means having a choice about whether or not you want to be sent to a Gulag. When that secret police unit turns up to force you into a slave labour camp, you will be able to fight back.

You may not live past the firefight, but you will have laid yourself upon the altar of freedom in self-sacrifice.

Like America has what the largest prison population on planet earth. its a industry here. lock you up make you work for pennys per hr. granted there are a lot of bad muthers behind bars thank god there prisons if you know what I mean, but most criminals are in on drug offenses.
so that is sort of Slavery on top of Slavery - /// anyone ever given this thought a serious look...?

Oh a Manchurian Canidate or MKUltra product

The goverments dont trust people to do right thing and i dont blame them.
Even the goverments can not always do right things with the power vested in them by the people, so how can they trust the people when they dont trust themselves.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


The Mehdi army really hasnt accomplished anything to move the US out of Iraq. Dragunovs and AKs only get you so far...
Any major pocket of resistance that pops up just gets whacked with a couple precision bombs/artillery rounds/tank rounds.

Any insurgent movement in a country that has such weapons would not fare any better than the Iraqis currently are, and might face stronger retaliation to prevent such movement from spreading.

Governments will go great lengths not to loose control, you assume too much if you think your army will not aim their guns at you if the Boss says so.

Originally posted by thesun

The goverments dont trust people to do right thing and i dont blame them.
Even the goverments can not always do right things with the power vested in them by the people, so how can they trust the people when they dont trust themselves.

Quoting this for truth

There's nothing that petty tyrants and nanny-state bureaucrats fear more than a well informed, well armed citizenry. That's why the first two amendments to the US constitution are protections for freedom of speech and the right to bear arms.

Statistically in the US, the person least likely to commit a firearms offense is a private citizen with a CC permit. As the old joke goes, "Ted Kennedy's Buick has killed more people than my handgun".

Statistically, a paraplegic has the least chance of commiting a murder. Then, a blind person; with a demented old lady close behind.

Did you just make up that fact?

reply to post by Ioseb_Jugashvili


The premise remains that if the Mahdi army were not armed, they could not have resisted US troops.

4000 US troops have died at the hands of the Mahdi army... that is evidence of armed resistance all right.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

I didnt say a blanket ban, but stronger restrictions as to whom can get a gun would be much better than kids buying guys over the internet and using them in schools.

My point being, tougher gun rules work, and the proof of it are the Europpean countries that enforce them and do NOT have the Homicide/Gun related crimes the US, Sudan, etc etc have.

I dont suggest a complete ban, merely keeping guns to responsible people...and not teenagers who watched a Marylin Manson video too many.

And yes, an astronomical amount of people die to Tobacco and Booze. There are ways to inhale nicotine now though without completely destroying your lungs (N-Joy is the name of the thingy...if I recall right.)

As for booze, governments are a bit hipocrital with their policies with it. Marihuana is a lot less dangerous, and yet its banned...but hey, I dont make drug policies.

reply to post by Herbal Oli

 

A gun is not really going to help much the "common man".
Education, and pacific resistance is going to serve him better, at least in a democratic country, and I believe you live in one.

People in Iraq had guns during Saddam....did it change anything? Without external help, I dont think there's much a civilian population can do if they indeed have an "Evil" leader.

reply to post by daddyroo45

 

Is the "opposition" the police or the army? Because in that case you'll need tanks and airplanes to defend your civil liberties. Specially considering the army will not back up the general population....as its now the case.

Having guns as an excuse to defend one's "rights" is pretty moot, considering americans are accepting them being reduced...all in the name of the War on Terror. Where is the insurgency fighting the evil government?

I beg to differ, a gun will help the common man

add 2 and 2 together, why do they want disarmament? they are affraid of the populace, why are they affraid of the populace? because they know they are doing immoral/unethical things everyday. eg. chipping. they want to have everyone on the system, their diet, their exact whereabouts, and much much more.

stay connected folks but get off the grid soon. and dont forget to arm yourself

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Herbal Oli]

reply to post by Herbal Oli




Guns don't help the common man. They were born out of the arms race in the midevil ages as a more powerful alternative to the bow and arrow. They wern't engineered to be a method of gathering food, or sport. They were invented for the sake of killing. And please, don't get started again on the whole "food" aspect of firearms. The world feeds itself off slaughterhouses, genetically engineered plants, and processed abominations.

Please people, wake up to the fact that the government isn't afraid of you! And really, they arn't out to get you. They don't track you all day, track your purchases, phone calls, relationships, etc. Do you think that people actually care about the average, 230lb, greasy slob of an american? No! They'd rather be spending thier time fighting wars and gathering taxes. Sure, if your planning on starting a jihad in your small town sometime soon, yeah they'd be tracking you. As for watching 250mil overweight americans running around in circles all day, I think they have better things to do.

Originally posted by hpsfl
reply to post by Herbal Oli

 

Guns don't help the common man. They were born out of the arms race in the midevil ages as a more powerful alternative to the bow and arrow. They wern't engineered to be a method of gathering food, or sport. They were invented for the sake of killing. And please, don't get started again on the whole "food" aspect of firearms. The world feeds itself off slaughterhouses, genetically engineered plants, and processed abominations.

Please people, wake up to the fact that the government isn't afraid of you! And really, they arn't out to get you. They don't track you all day, track your purchases, phone calls, relationships, etc. Do you think that people actually care about the average, 230lb, greasy slob of an american? No! They'd rather be spending thier time fighting wars and gathering taxes. Sure, if your planning on starting a jihad in your small town sometime soon, yeah they'd be tracking you. As for watching 250mil overweight americans running around in circles all day, I think they have better things to do.

lol, thats funny

where do you live, in a bubble? they are tagging native americans already, and its not exactly for scientific study. want me to go on? please by all means... the ball is in your court bud

reply to post by hpsfl


FYI most assault type automatic rifles are not designed to kill but to wound. A wounded man removes three people from the field whereby a dead one will be left behind. If you look at the modern .223 caliber M16 you will see that it is a hyper velocity round that will continue through its target with limited damage when compared to a hollow point hunting caliber rifle. When compared to the 30-06 round or the .308 round it is almost ineffective but in well placed groups. Hardly an effective weapon for the pray and spray mentality that you seem to suggest that we have. Contrary to your opinion death is not the prime purpose of the modern firearm.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn


Yes, that I know. I also realize that the 5.56 NATO (or .223 rem as you americans call it) is not a killing round, but it's designed to "tumble" on impact, therefore inflicting maximum damage internally, as opposed to sheer force. In terms of physics, the 5.56 has much more "power" per se, while the 7.62x39 (AK) round is a killer. It's simply a scaled down rifle bullet, to facilitate "comfortable" automatic fire. No thought of wounding or anything put into that one.

However, I'm arguing that there is no NEED (God, how many times do I have to say this, people!?!?!) for automatic weapons. What, are you planning on wounding your deer?

reply to post by hpsfl


there is no need for many things, alchoholic drinks, tobacco products, chemical weapons, or even as a previous poster said fast cars. The fact is that here in the states our government is truly supposed to be ours. We are the Government .Our rights are said to come from God not the Government. Our Government is to answer to the people not the other way around. It is there imperative that the people maintain power to keep the government in check. Yes sometimes they are used the wrong way, but it is a price we pay for freedom. Might I suggest you read a book written by John Lott concerning gun control and its effect on America. [I cannot remember the name at this time] America is like no other country on earth. Its people are like no other on earth. I do not expect others to really understand the dynamics of the American people. It is beyond the comprehension of many.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

Its all a plot to weaken their people so the coming Storm will be easier for them. "People should not fear their governments, governments should fear their people."~V

Is it not the case that the United States of America simply has far to many guns and it is ingrained to far into the Psyche of the Nation that there is no way you could or would even contemplate disarming the population?

The fundamental truth is the right to bear Arms as a Militia, was from a time when America had no professional Army and was concerned Britain or France or anyone else would come over and raise hell. This right to bear arms has been passed down the generations and although the dynamic has changed (Having a 100% Volunteer Professional standing Military) there really is no requirement for fire arms. However I am also aware that many US Citizens would happily sell there Grannies into slavery rather than give up their Weapons.

Criminals are characters that do not walk into gun stores and buy over the counter. Their Modus Operandi comes from the Black Market which operates beyond regulation this occurs in every society. My arguement is that citizens who have no record of mental illness does not mean they will not have an episode in the future. Easy access to weapons means mentally unstable people can do massive harm in a short period of time, Columbine, Washington Sniper, and the recent university campus shootings are good examples.

However the UK is not immune, it just tends less capable weapons are used. The recent Barrister(Lawyer) in the UK who forced the Police to shoot him dead as he was brandishing a shotgun was the most signifcant incident in the UK since john Charles De Menezies was killed on the London Underground. This was an Over and under shotgun one of the few weapons you can buy in the UK under license and police approval (Automatic Weapons are Banned), imagine if he could own an M60 or M16 ? I've even seen US Citizens with Dillion Aero Miniguns. What on Earth would you need one of those for?

It is a flawed argument to say I have Gun because Criminals have guns. Criminals will always have guns whether you like it or not, the same as you cannot ever eradicate terrorism. However you can limit the damage done by Specials needs, the mentally unstable and the erratic and irrational faction that exist in every society by limiting their access to weapons. If this was not the case the military would not lock up weapons in an Armoury would they?

In summary, i think most rational people will agree that there is no requirement to bear arms in democratic/republic/secure state. However the US has it so ingrained into its character that to disarm the Nation would cause thousands of needless deaths.

"From my Cold Dead hands!" sends a chill down my spine and makes me happy I am British.

p.s. On the issue of Assualt Rifles for Hunting, A Marksman should always aim to kill an Animal cleanly with a single round. It is inhumane and wrong to critically wound or wound an animal and cause it undue distress. If you need an education I recommend coming to Scotland and hunting Deer with a Single Action Rifle. That is the true craft of true Ghillie and Huntsman.

[edit on 25/5/08 by LT mikey]