Kerry, 30 Years Ago

Originally posted by dreamrebel
Sorry My lady. I was trying to help! Hows this - I support Jonna.

Who the hell you calling lady!?! Wearing that dress was a one time thing so don't get use to it.

Sorry dude. Peace to you!

Originally posted by John Nada
Get a fucking clue will you. It's the mother's decision if she wants to keep a child or not, end of story. Assholes like you have no right to preach, chances are behind closed doors you sodomize sheep.

NO! You get a fucking clue! Do the world a favor and blow your worthless brains out you fucking insect.

I was saying that I agreed that there is nothing I can do if someone makes up their minds to do something.

I have compassion for their circumstances, I do not have compassion for the actions they choose to adjust their "problems"

My whole issue is with accountability. Somewhere along the line we got sidetracked into thinking that there are not logical consiquences for your actions and that you are responcible for them.

You are right though, no one wants someone to tell them how to live their lives, but they sure want them to control other people so that they do not interfere with theirs.

This is the Pro-Choice mentality

-We don't want you to tell us what to do, but we get upset when we are not protected from what others do to us.

-It's my choice, although it was also my choice to engage in the act that caused this, but we'll ignore that whole fact.

-I do not want to have to pay for my mistakes.

-I think the death penalty is wrong, it's just so mean, but hell, just a quick nip and a tuck and we can get rid of that pesky baby.

-It's a parasite. And although a born baby in many respects is also one, we can't make that distiction.

-It's my body even though it has a heart and different DNA. You can be sure that if it was a 5 pound tapeworm I would NOT be a part of my body, but again, ignore that idea.


I am just as hard on the men, who by the way DO have a say in things if I had my way about it.

You give up rights by becoming pregnant, and if you think not, just ask a pregnant lady. Can't smoke or drink or do drugs. Hell, others can be charged with murder for killing your fetus, but Doctor's are above the law. Must be like the Priest thing and little boys.

KrazyJethro, I believe we agree fully.

I too am tired of the liberal arguments.

"It's my body I can do what I want with it."

Well when I say "So what if I decide to kill you, that's my right too..."

They always argue some crap thing.

They don't realize, that the argument against allowing murder of adults, is the same argument we use against allowing murder of unborn children.

It's all morals, the liberals just want to draw the line elsewhere...

They have to think they are absolutely correct though, and that is very annoying.

Originally posted by The_Broken_Column
KrazyJethro, I believe we agree fully.

I too am tired of the liberal arguments.

"It's my body I can do what I want with it."

Well when I say "So what if I decide to kill you, that's my right too..."

They always argue some crap thing.

They don't realize, that the argument against allowing murder of adults, is the same argument we use against allowing murder of unborn children.

It's all morals, the liberals just want to draw the line elsewhere...

They have to think they are absolutely correct though, and that is very annoying.

I am not a liberal. The reason people wont buy your killing adults argument is because in pregnancy it is not a baby, it's a buch of congragated cells. As I said before if you are going to fight for it's rights you better do it for Bacteria, Virus's e.t.c.
This can't be denied unless it's driven by religion, in which case you think these cells have a soul in which case it is murder. Because religiously driven is down to interpretation, and just because you think these cells have a soul doesn't mean they do.

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by Hyperspace

Originally posted by John Nada
Get a fucking clue will you. It's the mother's decision if she wants to keep a child or not, end of story. Assholes like you have no right to preach, chances are behind closed doors you sodomize sheep.

NO! You get a fucking clue! Do the world a favor and blow your worthless brains out you fucking insect.

hahahaha...at least I had some sort of point to make before I insulted him, and he's a big boy he can take it. What have you brought to the table other than your genetal herpes?

You're just a bunch of congregated cells, nothing makes you different except memories...you've made memories, and will make memories in the future.

Meanwhile, an unborn child has not yet made memories, except the pain of pregnancy, but will like you, make memories in the future.

So what is murder when it comes down to the philospohical issue?

It's simply ending one's future.

Whether I kill you now, or killed you back when you were a fetus, the end result is the same, you will experience nothing after now.

The only difference is that when you are unborn, no one has any memories to mourn over.

This is selective murder.

It is the same type of selectiveness Hitler played when he deemed it alright to kill Jews, but not Aryans.

I'm sure you can now see the invalidity of the argument you presented on behalf of ignorant abortionists everywhere.

They want to kill unborn children...I (hypothetically) want to kill born children...where shall we draw the line?

This is a quote that should be read by all prochoice folks.

"The cultural environment for a human holocaust is present whenever any society can be misled into defining individuals as less than human and therefore devoid of value and respect."

Life either begins at conception or at birth, there is no in between. To draw the line in the middle is begging for permanant scrutiny.

Your arguement is flawed. Bacteria is all that it will ever be. That is it's life. Not true for the fetus.

The heart beats in the time frame you can have an abortion. The digestive track and organs function. It has a nervous system and the arms and legs move.

Sounds like just a jumble of cells to me. Please come with something substancial please.

Actually, I wish all Pro-Choice folks were as bad as you, we'd have a non-abortion nation already.

But never fear, it will be overturned.

I thought the line had already been drawn? Isn't it that you can't terminate a pregnancy once you've gone past 3 months, because that is the stage at which it actually begins to take a human form. These cells are not even really formed up until this stage, it is not a human.

Please don't think of me as heartless here, but if it was you (hyperthetically) that had an unwanted pregnancy, you would believe that it was human right from the beginning and not terminate.
However, others as a result of scientific fact would disagree and say it is nothing more than dis-organized cells up to a point and feel fine with the abortion.

Just because you feel they are wrong and you are right doesn't mean you are, and certainly doesn't give you the right to stop them making this decision from these beliefs.

There shouldn't need to be any line, the idea of Abortion should be abolished from the world.

Same with Genocide, and so forth.

Idealist...but that means just don't make a stance on it.

Murder is murder, anything human that is killed purposefully is murder. That is where the line should be.

In fact, the law is currently hypocritical.

Peterson is currently charged with 2 counts of murder right?

Lacey, and his unborn child.

This makes no sense...that you can be charged with murder of a child if you kill the person, but not charged with murder of the child if you it is sanctioned by "Abortion".

The other hypocritical aspect is that there is a law where if you do drugs or alcohol excesively and kill the baby because of it, you are charged with Murder.

That is outrageous...so you kill your baby by doping it up at the first trimester, and you are charged with murder...but if you go to an abortion clinic, have them dope you up...it's sanctioned.

In the words of Lincoln..."...it will be all one thing or all the other..."

That is how life should be.

Either killing unborn children is illegal in all cases, or in no cases. Just as it is with Murder//manslaughter.

This is just my legal argument, hardly close to my philosophical argument...Abortion is a heinous crime that will be remembered as a low point of our civilization.

1000 years from now, if we go to Mars soon...they will say, "While they did much good going to Mars establishing the civilization we know of today...they were still barbarians, where abortions were still sanctioned blah blah blah."

Or...we'll have lost our humanity entirely and they will live like Gattica.

I feel compelled to ask...
What is your definition of a human?
What is your definition of a person?
Are they the same?

Well a cat is not a person, though I assume when we find other intelligent life then person will no longer be synomynous with Human.

I define life as several things...I define our life which is what is important, as "the future"...our continued existance.

We are not a grouping of cells alone, we are more than that.

I have logical reasons to this.

Mainly, what seperates me from you? If we were a pile of cells, then we'd both be the same thing because in this universe there is no distinction between one thing or another, that we do not make.

That is, two rocks are the same until we as people, say they aren't.

Under this fact, which is fact supported by Quantum Mechanics//Physics.

I should have the brain power to put myself into your body...but I do not...therefore there is something more to us that makes us individuals...something that seperates you from me that is beyond the Universe's way of functioning.

"Murder is murder, anything human that is killed purposefully is murder. That is where the line should be."

It is not human in the early stages, it is barely even stable in cell form. Just because you believe it is doesn't mean you're right. Others know this to be true and feel they are not killing a human. You have no way of proving they are wrong, so you have no right to make decisions for them.

P.S. Trying to imply that I am in some way comparable to Hitler is not cool, and just shows how extreme you are to get your own way regardless of whether you are right or wrong. I wish more Anti-Abortion people like you, we'd quickly have the right to choose permenantly accepted.

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by John Nada
I thought the line had already been drawn? Isn't it that you can't terminate a pregnancy once you've gone past 3 months, because that is the stage at which it actually begins to take a human form. These cells are not even really formed up until this stage, it is not a human.

Please don't think of me as heartless here, but if it was you (hyperthetically) that had an unwanted pregnancy, you would believe that it was human right from the beginning and not terminate.
However, others as a result of scientific fact would disagree and say it is nothing more than dis-organized cells up to a point and feel fine with the abortion.

Just because you feel they are wrong and you are right doesn't mean you are, and certainly doesn't give you the right to stop them making this decision from these beliefs.

I could respect the opinion if it was legitimate. You should really know more about what you talk about.

But I will address it none-the-less.

Let's talk about science first.

5 weeks - The embryo's tiny heart has begun beating. The neural tube enlarges into three parts, soon to become a very complex brain.

7 weeks - Facial features are visible, including a mouth and tongue. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed, and the unborn child practices moving (MOVING). The child has its own blood type, distinct from the mother's. These blood cells are produced by the liver now instead of the yolk sac (means it is functioning).

8 weeks - The tiny person is protected by the amnionic sac, filled with fluid. Inside, the child swims and moves gracefully. The arms and legs have lengthened, and fingers can be seen. The toes will develop in the next few days. Brain waves can be measured.

10 weeks - The heart is almost completely developed and very much resembles that of a newborn baby. An opening the atrium of the heart and the presence of a bypass valve divert much of the blood away from the lungs, as the child's blood is oxygenated through the placenta. Twenty tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums.


12 weeks - Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.

All of this within the time frame of legal standard abortion. It swims, cries, moves that is not the criteria for a disorganized clump of cells.


Now, onto the "what if it was you" idea. It was me friend. My son Jack is now 7 months old, and laughs all the time. He was devistating emotionally and financially to me and my wife.

Anything else?

Does your definition of a 'person' include physical characteristics?

I don't doubt that there is something that separates us as individuals, but is it something physical, or is it something mental, cognitive, or intangible?

Whoa, I did not compare you to Hitler.

That was not the point of the quote.

I, along with Kerry, could only hope and pray the populous and media bring a full blown abortion debate into the 2004 election.

W's position is 100% against a CLEAR majority of Americans!!! And he's planning on appointing those swing judges to impose a Roe v Wade reversal against the will of the people!

Wooohoooo talk it up anti-choice people! But if you're remotely pro-choice AND pro-Republican, here's the position on the Bush campaign held open just for you:

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by John Nada
I thought the line had already been drawn? Isn't it that you can't terminate a pregnancy once you've gone past 3 months, because that is the stage at which it actually begins to take a human form. These cells are not even really formed up until this stage, it is not a human.

Please don't think of me as heartless here, but if it was you (hyperthetically) that had an unwanted pregnancy, you would believe that it was human right from the beginning and not terminate.
However, others as a result of scientific fact would disagree and say it is nothing more than dis-organized cells up to a point and feel fine with the abortion.

Just because you feel they are wrong and you are right doesn't mean you are, and certainly doesn't give you the right to stop them making this decision from these beliefs.

I could respect the opinion if it was legitimate. You should really know more about what you talk about.

But I will address it none-the-less.

Let's talk about science first.

5 weeks - The embryo's tiny heart has begun beating. The neural tube enlarges into three parts, soon to become a very complex brain.

7 weeks - Facial features are visible, including a mouth and tongue. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed, and the unborn child practices moving (MOVING). The child has its own blood type, distinct from the mother's. These blood cells are produced by the liver now instead of the yolk sac (means it is functioning).

8 weeks - The tiny person is protected by the amnionic sac, filled with fluid. Inside, the child swims and moves gracefully. The arms and legs have lengthened, and fingers can be seen. The toes will develop in the next few days. Brain waves can be measured.

10 weeks - The heart is almost completely developed and very much resembles that of a newborn baby. An opening the atrium of the heart and the presence of a bypass valve divert much of the blood away from the lungs, as the child's blood is oxygenated through the placenta. Twenty tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums.


12 weeks - Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.

All of this within the time frame of legal standard abortion. It swims, cries, moves that is not the criteria for a disorganized clump of cells.


Now, onto the "what if it was you" idea. It was me friend. My son Jack is now 7 months old, and laughs all the time. He was devistating emotionally and financially to me and my wife.

Anything else?

I'd like the source of your information please...

Oh, and the "What if was you" was not a question but I point I was making, did you finish reading it?

Sure thing. Here's the site.

General Site

Specific Page

I do NOT use Pro-life information in this debate. It undercuts my arguement. I try to be fair about it, emphasis on try.

Anyway, sorry about misunderstanding what you said. I just get the "what if it was you" thing all the time. Auto-detection/responce. My bad