Dogon Alien “Mystery” Demystified

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posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 02:36 AM
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Despite all the talk about Egypt, so far as I know we have no proof about the origins of the Dogon (or the time line for any movements).

As for the implication that Griaule must be telling the truth because he had nothing to gain otherwise, I am sure that he was telling what he believed to be the truth. It is not the truth however that opposed to Griaule are only skeptics, the other anthropologists shouldn't be labelled 'skeptics' just because their findings don't back Griaule up.
Griaule had star maps.
And you can't just dismiss the possible influence of early French schools lightly. I hope that they weren't 'parochial' (sorry, couldn't resist the pun) enough to just teach stuff that was obviously practical. I don't know their syllabus but that they discussed science and astronomy seems very likely, and Sirius was a popular topic at the time.
Doug




posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 12:46 PM
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Two of the responses to my article have touched on a point which I personally find very interesting - and would like to know more about.

That issue relates to Dogon artifacts.

Dark_matter06 commented:


Originally posted by dark_matter06
There's is only one question I have since every date of discoveries is around the same decade or so and the West knew about the info the Dogon's had around the same time. How long did the Dogon's have this info. Was it on cave walls for 100s of years and passed down generations or did they just learn it? I couldn't find anything on it. I suppose if I did the mystery would be solved.


Lost_Mind has also raised the issue:


Originally posted by Lost_Mind
Was all of this all based on Griaules relating the supposed oral history of the Dogon with no corroborating physical evidence? I cant see how Griaule and co. could have thought that these people had held this knowledge tightly throughout their history, from antiquity without expressing this knowledge in some physical form, art, something.


I did touch on this issue in this part of my article, about relevant dates.

In that secoint, I made the following comments about the limited material information I had found and the issues raised in my mind:


Originally posted by IsaacKoi
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More fundamental is the issue of whether there is any evidence that the knowledge attributed to the Dogon had been held by them prior to its communication to Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen between 1931 and 1950. Some of the proponents of the "Sirius Mystery" claim there is such evidence. For example, in response to criticisms of his theory by Carl Sagan, Robert Temple has suggested that the Dogon have had the relevant knowledge for hundreds of years, referring "hundreds or thousands of objects, symbols, woven blankets, carved statues, etc., etc., which exist in those cultures relating to the 'Sirius Mystery'" and stated that he is baffled by "how these hundreds or thousands of object are meant to have been expertly fabricated fakes purporting to be centuries old, fooling all dating experts" (Temple, 1981).

However, few details of such "hundreds of thousands" of pieces of evidence have been supplied by Robert Temple or anyone else.

Obvious questions about the "hundreds or thousands" pieces of evidence mentioned by Robert Temple are:
(1) What specific objects are relied upon?
(2) How do those specific objects prove that the alleged knowledge of the Dogon is "centuries old"?

If such objects and symbols did indeed exist, then the alternative explanation put forward by sceptics (i.e. contamination with Western knowledge) would be completely undermined.

Temple has written a lengthy book on the "Sirius Mystery". He also substantially added to that book, after two decades of attacks by sceptics largely based upon the theory that the relevant knowledge is the result of recent contamination. So, why hasn't Temple answered the two basic questions posed above about the "hundreds or thousands" of objects and symbols?

The obvious inference is that he is unable to provide compelling answers to these questions.


So, can anyone that still supports the Dogon "mystery" provide details of the relevant artifacts?

I agree with the comments made by dark_matter06 that evidence on this point could mean the end of the controversy - or at least significantly affect it.

Kind Regards,

Isaac



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 08:30 PM
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The mystery of the Dogon people isn't that much of a mystery at all.
Information about the stars and solar systems was common place during the antedeluvian period. No doubt the knowledge has been handed down.
Of course we all know that extraterrestrials visted then also.
For those of you who do not know what the antedeluvian period was, it is the time after Adam up until the flood. The Atlantians were superior in technology because the races were mixed with the genes of the Watchers.
Man did not start out in a cave and find fire and invent the wheel. Man started out remarkably advanced to even our knowledge today and became very ignorant. We are just beginning to pull out if the dark ages. cantyousee

[edit on 13-1-2008 by cantyousee]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by cantyousee]



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 10:07 PM
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Great late night read. I look forward to any other articles you decide to put forth in the future, and keep up the good work.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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Absolutely excellent post Mr. Koi. Thank you for the time you took to research this article



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by IsaacKoi
 


While those are interesting questions that remain to be answered. My question still remains as a possible further hint to those who are still not convinced.

Why is there so much information about the star system where the supposed Alien beings originated from and none about themselves, what they looked like, what their culture was like?

Take a minute and think about it: If we (from this planet) were to send probes or manned missions to another civilized world with the purpose of contact, wouldn't we give them basic information about our civilization?



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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Was there ever a claim that the alleged visitors to the Dogon were actually from the Sirius star system?
If that was never claimed then arguing that point is moot.

As far as contamination goes, if I were a human missionary or explorer interacting with a people as primitive as the Dogon, I would definitely make it a point to make sure their cultural histories were made to include binary stars, their periods and densities. Yep...the very first thing I'd do.
I'd think, "Gee, these folks are so backward they know nothing about Sirius and its sister star. It's high time they were made civilized so I'll do that by educating them about Sirius."

I can't think of why extraterrestrials would do that either but since it's one of the brightest stars in the sky it may have been used as an example for explaining what those pinpoints of light in the sky really were.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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Dogon Alien Mystery: I would just like to Emphatically STATE that WE should Not Go To Attributing The Knowledge of The Stars That Is Held By MANY African Groups of Black Peoples To Outside Sources Such As Europeans ( Caucasians, Whites ) or Even Indo-Oriental Peoples.

The Teachings and Practices of The Dogon regarding Star Knowledge
has been proved time and time over from Scientific and Indigenous Sources.!!! Moreover The Time that the Dogon has had Such Knowledge
Easily exceeds the time time period of 10, 000 years.

The Star Knowledge of The Dogon COULD NOT Have Come from European-Caucasian or Indo-Oriental Sources by even a Liberal rendering
of The subject by unbiased Investigation.!!!

At this Time Still, The Burden of Proof, NOT THEORECTICAL CONJECTURE,
is upon those who try to represent otherwise on this issue.!!!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by cantyousee
 


You Are So Right On This Point. There Is Still a Lot, Lot, Lot More to it Though.!!!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 04:16 PM
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Thanks for mentioning OTHER african tribes who hold beliefs about ancestors from the stars and visitors from the stars.

The theory of Europeans having brought the knowledge to Africans is not only inaccurate (as african mythology was already in place before missionaries attempted to destroy it) but also has a slight subtone of racism



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 02:28 AM
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Fantastic post IsaacKoi, it is obvious that a great deal of work went into it and for that I thank you. However in destroying the old "mystery" you have created a new one; why do people continue to assign a supernatural explanation to something which can be explained much more simply by natural means?



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by sonicology
Fantastic post IsaacKoi, it is obvious that a great deal of work went into it and for that I thank you. However in destroying the old "mystery" you have created a new one; why do people continue to assign a supernatural explanation to something which can be explained much more simply by natural means?


Love that spooky supernatural avatar. Its from some japanese movie, isnt it?

Dont like your response however. First of all, interstellar travel is no longer considered supernatural, and second of all, the debunking of one thing does not constitute the debunking of ALL things outside of the mainstream.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by 2believeor0
 


I first came across the Dogon mystery some twenty odd years ago, in some "believe it or not" type book, can't remember what it was called so don't beat me up for not having my sources
. I do remeber a discription given by the dogon elders, of half man, half fish type beings who were required to spend a large part of thier time in water.

Sorry, i can't remember the name of the book, probably nonsense anyway



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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How many of the Dogon tribe did Carl Sagan interview and for that matter how many did Temple?

What empircal evidence is there to show that their theories are actually true?

Why should i believe anything Sagan said about UFOs or any other related subject given who he represented?

It is a tad galling that the very same people who demand empirical evidence on anything pro UFO related, are only too happy to go with someone spouting their opinions from the safety of an office 5000 miles from the actual subject...

Where did Sagan get his degree in anthropology from or maybe i've missed his degree in African cultural studies somewhere?? Can we see it?? if he didn't have one what makes him any more of an expert than my cat on the subject?

It is pretty laughable the hypocracy you see at times when it comes to this sort of subject.

The truth is you and i know, if we are truthful, that Sagan set out with the subconcious mindset to *trash* this idea from the very start. He didn't even have the good manners to , AFAIK , do any empirical work for himself and yet ..LO and behold the man's word is untouchable... If it wasn't so sad, it would laughable.

That doesn't mean, for one minute, i believe everything that is said about the Dogon people. However, the whole of the tone of the work done on them smacks of a casual subconcious..we are so much more advanced than you. so we are gonig to prove it ...attitude...

Lets see what a tribal elder/historian from the Dogon actually says and then start from there. Not from the inbuilt but overt arrogance of a Western point of view...

[edit on 18-1-2008 by FireMoon]

[edit on 18-1-2008 by FireMoon]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by FireMoon
How many of the Dogon tribe did Carl Sagan interview and for that matter how many did Temple?


Sagan - none.
Temple - none.


Originally posted by FireMoon
Lets see what a tribal elder/historian from the Dogon actually says and then start from there.


See Section 6 of my article, i.e. the bit entitled "SECTION 6 : DID THE DOGON EVEN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT SIRIUS B AND SIRIUS C?".

Kind Regards.

Isaac

[edit on 24-1-2008 by IsaacKoi]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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Thank you kindly for the link.... going to take a while to work through much of it... Onething, i have a feeling that i first read about the Dogon tribe in the book "Morning of the Magicians" which was written by a couple of French guys in the early 60s..I will have to re read it and see if that is right...



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 06:01 PM
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IssacKoi, while I am not convinced that this is pure myth, I am well aware that some of it may be. You have presented an above average rebuttal to my submission, and I applaud you for it.

I too feel that this was worth putting into the newsletter, and I am at a loss as to why it was not. But I have noticed that the newsletter seems to have "faded" somewhat. Perhaps there is just so much going on that it is being allowed to sink out of sight.

We have done what was in the best interest of ATS by "sponsoring" both sides of an issue that helps towards the goal of presenting issues for discussion. Best of all, we have shown that it can be done with passion yet without rancor.

You sir, are a class act. A tip of the hat.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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Thank you kindly for the link.... going to take a while to work through much of it... Onething, i have a feeling that i first read about the Dogon tribe in the book "Morning of the Magicians" which was written by a couple of French guys in the early 60s..I will have to re read it and see if that is right...



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by IsaacKoi
 


I haven't time to go through the whole thread. One thing I do know, is that The Sirius Mystery was published in the seventies (I have the original hard back). At that time, the existence of Sirius C was not known, but was mentioned in the book. In the Nineties, I remember reading in Scientific American of the discovery of Sirius C, which is not a brown dwarf like Sirius B, but even denser, answering perfectly to the idea of the "Dark Companion". The book therefore makes a prediction which was validated by later discoveries.

There's a thread somewhere on here about pseudoskepticism that's relevant to much of the stuff I've seen so far. All the "evidence" about whether Sirius is or isn't a good candidate for life to evolve is pure guesswork based on prejudice. Including it is evidence of bias against the proposition.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by rich23
I haven't time to go through the whole thread. One thing I do know, is that The Sirius Mystery was published in the seventies (I have the original hard back). At that time, the existence of Sirius C was not known, but was mentioned in the book. ... The book therefore makes a prediction which was validated by later discoveries.


Hi Rich23,

I dealt with the "prediction" regarding Sirius C in some detail in the section of my article entitled "SECTION 5: WHAT ABOUT SIRIUS C?".

In short, there were quite a few reported sightings (probably erroneous) of Sirius C reported in the West during the 1920s/1930s - which coincidentally (?) is about the same time that cultural contamination may have occured.

So, contrary to suggestions by several researchers, the "prediction" regarding Sirius C is not a very good test to prove that the Dogon had advanced astronomical knowledge derived from extraterrestrials rather than simply repeating knowledge gained from Western contacts or teachers in the local French schools.

As Carl Sagan has commented, there are simply too many loopholes.

Furthermore, it is important to note the fact (as I discuss at the link above) that the recent discussions of the possible characteristics of any Sirius C do NOT coincide with the details of Sirius C in Temple's book about the Dogon's statements regarding Sirius C - e.g. its orbitral period.

Kind Regards,

Isaac

[edit on 31-1-2008 by IsaacKoi]





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