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reply to post by LightinDarkness


10 years ago people used their savings accounts as comfort zones but now because of high tax rates, living costs, rediculous tuition rates and the ever so unconstitutional income tax, people now rely on credit cards as a comfort/safety zone because most middle class americans have to. And this is true not becuase they spend frivolously....its a corner that a lot of people are being forced into. If you have shown good payment history and no defaulting in a year they should lower the rate...its that simple, but they dont because of the credit crunch.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


also.....who makes up interest rates then? I understand that they have to be at a certain point to sustain certain economic status and uphold the value of the dollar but then arent they inflated so these evil corps can make money? Thats what they do in a capitalist society isnt it? Thats the main purpose, gaining funds and profits...they dont care that high interest rates subdue people. Of course they wont be able to pay high interest rates because they are astronimical and just because you never got caught in this hole doesnt mean that everyone who does has only themselves to blame. Bottom line....they are the big guys and we are the little guys so why cant they help us out a little?
Another question for you...when did you move out of your parents house?
Some kids, like I, do not have the opportunity to live at their parents house after or during college and benefit from free room and board....so we have to pay our own way and that means to go to work. So then what happens? Well....no more school after that because you have to work 55 hours a week to support the debt you are already in and your day to day expenses. Its an effed up situation and no one wants to help.

"MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

Thats not a real quote but im sure a lot of scholars have said it, sociologists as well so im gonna take a long shot and quote it as annonymous. It really is the truth....how many less criminals, murders, beatings, robberies would we have if our society didnt value monetary worth as being the tool by which we gain or lose our so called status' in society? Its BS.....seriously people, wake up. There is no need for money....that doesnt mean there is no need for currency or some sore of barter system, it just means that the emphasis and perception of economics needs to change. What a surprise!!!

Originally posted by GUICE2Im sorry but you are a little dilusional....im not purchasing corvettes and large screen tvs every week on credit. I had a credit card when i was in college that i used to purchase things i needed. Yet at that age i wasnt educated on the ways of the credit card as most youngster arent (can you blame us for it?) and these companies know that which is why they set up these tables outside of college buidlings offering free t shirts and stuff if you sign up for a card.

I'm glad you have to insult people to "defend" yourself, it shows that you have no actual arguments.

I hope you read what you just wrote. Why did you need a credit card to purchase things you "needed"? Why didnt you get a job? I had two jobs. Why didnt you actually READ the credit card application you signed? Did the credit card company force you to get a card? I went to a college where the credit card companies did the same thing, and I walked right past them. They didn't force me to sign up for anything, and I did my own homework and got more favorable credit cards from the same companies.

Originally posted by GUICE2 just because we didnt know the full implications of our actions means that we should be punished with high interest rates? Its not about your credit history or score anymore because of the ongoing credit crunch....i had a long conversation with a rep from capital one yesterday and thats exactly what he said. it doesnt matter if you have never missed a payment and can show you can make the current payment for a loan term....the standards are so unbeleivably high right now that for someone who has had trouble in the past, they are in a situation currently where it will be impossible to get out of making minimum payments that are astronomical because of the interest rate.

Why yes, you should be punished for not reading what you sign. You can read, can't you? So read it. If you read it and find you don't like the terms, don't sign up. GASP. OH NOES! PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! I sense a theme. Your "conversation" with a representative from capitol one doesnt mean anything at all - capitol one is a SUBPRIME credit company that gives out credit cards to anyone that wants one - and you'll pay with it in interest. If you have to use capitol one, your credit sucks. Dump them and get a prime credit card. And actually, for the record the only thing the credit companies can score you on are things like paying on time and length of credit history - if those things don't matter than they are doing something illegal.

Originally posted by GUICE2 are all on the same page here buddy....but the fact remains that the same guy applying for a loan 5 or 10 years ago with the same credit history will not get approved in todays economy but would have back then. That again is directly from a manager over at capital one who i was discussing a auto loan refinance with. Its not so black and white dude, there is a gray area....i mean come on.

Where is the proof for this "fact"? If 5 to 10 years ago you had a few years of good credit history you could get any loan you wanted, and now 5 to 10 years later IF YOU CONTINUED WITH THAT HISTORY I assure you that you could get the same thing. Did you not know that a huge part of your FICO score is the length of your credit history? Facts are important little things, you know.

If you are going to get your perceptions of the loan industry from a subprime bank, do not be surprised that you get a very different picture than those of us who deal with prime lenders. You see, I don't need to refinance my car loans - although if I did I could go through a prime bank. You know why? Because I didn't buy a car I couldn't afford. I saved for a year and bought a $3,000 beater, which has been running fine for 5 years. But then again, I don't NEED a fancy car, I just need one that runs.

Originally posted by GUICE210 years ago people used their savings accounts as comfort zones but now because of high tax rates, living costs, rediculous tuition rates and the ever so unconstitutional income tax, people now rely on credit cards as a comfort/safety zone because most middle class americans have to. And this is true not becuase they spend frivolously....its a corner that a lot of people are being forced into. If you have shown good payment history and no defaulting in a year they should lower the rate...its that simple, but they dont because of the credit crunch.

Yet again, more statements without facts. Where is your proof taxes have gone up, when taxes have been cut across the board for the past 7 years? Where is your proof that "living costs" have gone up faster than salaries? As for tuition rates - I actually agree. But heres the great thing about college, if you are smart you won't have to pay those. If you are paying them, then you probably should do better in college. Never pay for college, thats for fools.

People spend more money when they make more money, thats it. They spend money they don't have. And please stop with the lies, if you always pay on time and pay more than the minimum you will have a low rate to begin with. The only "credit crunch" which exists is for subprime people. If you are subprime, then you are not paying your bills on time all the time.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

Originally posted by GUICE2also.....who makes up interest rates then? I understand that they have to be at a certain point to sustain certain economic status and uphold the value of the dollar but then arent they inflated so these evil corps can make money? Thats what they do in a capitalist society isnt it? Thats the main purpose, gaining funds and profits...they dont care that high interest rates subdue people. Of course they wont be able to pay high interest rates because they are astronimical and just because you never got caught in this hole doesnt mean that everyone who does has only themselves to blame. Bottom line....they are the big guys and we are the little guys so why cant they help us out a little?

Be careful, your socialist bias is showing. The banks are free to set their own interest rates which are in practice always above what the federal bank sets, although prime borrowers can get interest rates at the fed rate. You do realize the PURPOSE of banks is to make money, right? If they don't make money, they won't be in business. While that may make your little socialist heart happy, it also means you get no more loan products, ever. Corporations do not exist to help you out, they exist to profit. If you are a good credit risk, you can profit from them, I do it all the time. If you stole their money and didnt pay it back or pay it back on time, then you are a credit risk and will be charges correspondingly high rates.

Originally posted by GUICE2 question for you...when did you move out of your parents house? Some kids, like I, do not have the opportunity to live at their parents house after or during college and benefit from free room and board....so we have to pay our own way and that means to go to work. So then what happens? Well....no more school after that because you have to work 55 hours a week to support the debt you are already in and your day to day expenses. Its an effed up situation and no one wants to help.

Yet another excuse that fails. I moved out of my parents house at age 18, and I have been working since 16. I worked two full time jobs in college and graduated in 3 years with 2 degrees, all the while living on my own. I am now in graduate school living on my own and only have to do one research job, because my merit performance has gained me a fellowship. I had to pay my own way, and I ended up with just about $5,000 in loans locked in at 3% interest. If you have to work 55 hours a week to support your own debt, don't buy stuff you can't afford. Of course no one wants to help, because you got yourself into it, you need to get yourself out of it.

Originally posted by GUICE2
"MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

Thats not a real quote but im sure a lot of scholars have said it, sociologists as well so im gonna take a long shot and quote it as annonymous. It really is the truth....how many less criminals, murders, beatings, robberies would we have if our society didnt value monetary worth as being the tool by which we gain or lose our so called status' in society? Its BS.....seriously people, wake up. There is no need for money....that doesnt mean there is no need for currency or some sore of barter system, it just means that the emphasis and perception of economics needs to change. What a surprise!!!

Actually no scholars I have seen have ever said it, because they know better. Money is a tool, and it can be good or bad for you depending on how you use it. If you buy stuff you can't afford, its bad for you. Don't do that.

Again, your socialist badge is showing. In a society without money there would be no society, because very few people will work without being compensated for their efforts. In a society with little emphasis on money where the government controls everything, we tried that it - its called the USSR, and it was a disaster. You are a fool if you think people would stop committing crimes because money would not exist - people will always have emotions and will kill and rape each other over them.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


And its evident that you are one of those people who sit on their high horses and boast about the hard work that they have put in because it obviously paid off. So who are you to say that my hard work isnt good enough? You want a history? Here it is...parents divorced at 7 yrs old. Forced to move to a new city....mother remarried some Ahole rich man who took care of us but mentally and phsyically abused us at times. I was then again forced to move to another part of NY and not allowed to work by him so that he can control me (kind of like the entire monetary system is meant to do) and my mother.....sent me to a college i didnt want to go to that was expensive and only aggreed to pay half so guess what? That was my first debt not by choice....so now im in a place i dont want to be in, getting good grades but not getting a free ride. By the way, why do you make it sound like its so easy to go to school for free if you are smart? Thats not the complete reality of the situation is it? My girlfriend is extremely smart and she didnt get a free ride anywhere except on university. So its not about being smart its about being smart enough...but anyway.
I got into a little trouble at this school, no big deal and nothing highly illegal but didnnt have supportive parents so i decided to move out on my own and was practically kicked out. So that ended my college carear because i had to work fulltime in order to support myself. But i was already in so much debt at 17 because of college that i was pretty much defeated before i even had a chance to cross the damn bridge. Yes i bought things...i needed a computer, i needed a car, a tv (o dont judge me for that one Ok? entertainment keeps people sane) and food so i had to use credit cards. Why are you claiming that everyone who is in debt is irresponsible and deserves to be punished:? Where is your empathy for your fellow human being and citizens? Sure....we made the mistakes of getting in debt in the first place but why does that mean that we should be gouged when we are trying to get out of that hole?
And where is this prime lending market you are talking about? you need to have credit in the upper 700s to get anything lower than 10% and how can we be expected to ever reach that goal if we dont get the chance to paydown our outstanding balances because of high interest rates....we wouldnt be "risks" anymore if we got the chance to pay off our debt.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Dude who said anything about a governemnt controlled soceity? Well actually if we all operated under the assumption that WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT than it would be a people controlled society wouldnt it? So whats your point? The USSR wasnt government controlled...yes they called it a government i guess but they were just as greedy as mastercard and exxon. The fact that they were tied to politics made them a government right? They were no better than an evil corporation.....and whats this crap about socialist? What are you talking about? I work hard and i do think i deserve compensation but if i see a homeless man on the street i dont shun the person and call him names....ill give him the spare change i have and not say to myself "he's homeless because he chose to be"....its not that simple man. Get off it....

reply to post by LightinDarkness


To be more clear....its the perception of money that needs to change and we have to stop valuing wealth so highly in this society because thats what creates greed. Thats all im really saying man....calm down a little and get out of your ivory tower will you? Yea you worked hard to get where you are....congrats, but unfortunately its not only hard work you need nowadays is it? Is 55 hours a week not enough? So now you suggest i get two more jobs? And when am i supposed to do things every human should do and relax? when am i suppposed to enjoy my life and my love? When?
Come on man....we are all part of the same construct, why do you have to condemn your fellow human or alien hybrid?

reply to post by LightinDarkness


ANd im not trying to insult you buddy.....but you are insulting all people who are in debt by saying that they deserve to be punished. I mean seriously, have a heart and understand that this world isnt black and white my man. All you need is love....not money. I never heard a song that said all you need is money but in todays society that seems to be true because you can accomplish a lot more with money than without it. Which is fine but why should your actual life's worth be better when you have money than when you dont? Sorry to call you dilusional, i was referring to your comment about how we deserve to be punshied like we are some kind of criminal....

This has long reached the point past it becoming comical. I don't have the time to write an essay demonstrating to you again why you are wrong. Stop making up what I say because it doesn't fit your agenda. I'll respond in a few hours.

I realize we are discussing banks and debt, bilderberger and illuminati but the references so far seem to be focused on the personal aspects of debts and handling of finances.
It is a fact that the Fed started in 1913 , it is also a fact that gold was the standard by which currency became legal tender. This is no longer the case. The ability to exchange currency for gold was discontinued in 1971 The term Nixon Shock is used to refer to two different policy measures taken by U.S. President Richard Nixon in 1971 and 1972.

In 1971 Nixon unilaterally canceled the Bretton Woods system and stopped the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold.
You know why this was done Lightindarkness. Because they new then that the gold reserves would NEVER cover the paper currency being fabricated.

You mentioned gold being a worthless standard of trade because we assign its value. THAT is precisely the point , gold cannot be manufactured and requires effort to mine. Salt was also used at one point for its ability to preserve food hence worth your weight in salt/gold.
There was a 24 hour non stop counter running in times square which keeps track of the countries debt to the Fed. Currently Today, the national debt totals $8.3 trillion and counting

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 13 Dec 2007 at 07:14:16 PM GMT is:

9,174,654,065,221.53

The estimated population of the United States is 303,792,991
so each citizen's share of this debt is $30,200.35.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.52 billion per day since September 29, 2006!

This is the DEBT we are discussing pal. Not what i owe the dentist and by the way the country was built on 40 acres and a mule and people were given the necessities of life by mercantiles BEFORE the crops were harvested, or else they would have died of starvation. Debts and loans have their necessary place in history. When and if you marry and have children and god forbid somebody gets ill and needs serious hospital attention I think you will be the first in line at your local bank just hopefully you havent maxed out your credit with lawyers from divorce or any other manner of credit woes.
And while your busy judging the economic decisions of your fellow man I will leave you with this Question
When are you going to pay your $30,205.35 cause its due.

reply to post by the b rain


This guy just doesnt see my point....thanks for stating it more eloquently because like him i am also at work and am not able to be as thorough as i want to be. Also im not an economist i just see several inconsistancies within the system that should not be in place and do more harm than good. 30k for personal debt? Add that to my existing 40 and i owe about 70K in total! Hahahaha....what a disaster. when do you think this is going to end? And how can we slow it down?

Originally posted by GUICE2

ANd im not trying to insult you buddy.....but you are insulting all people who are in debt by saying that they deserve to be punished.

If you look into other posts we've already pointed this out. He believes poverty is the fault of the impoverished. That everyone who is in a bad financial situation 'bought things they couldn't afford'. It's all our fault - money is good - the government is good. I think we know where he's coming from.

And calling people socialists? Please.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Yea i mean i just dont get the finger pointing in our society....labeling people never helped any situation. You learn that in sociology 101...it descriminates and creates internal rifts in a society that will eventually lead to its demise. We all need to band together to destry greed....that really is the root of all evil and money is its physical manifestation. All this makes me so sick, they make it so you have to work yourself to death just to get out of debt. YEt most people die in debt so what does that say about our economy? I really hope they pass hr-51 (fair tax) becauase purchasing power and investments will rise astronomically if people get to take home gross salary....but im afraid that we might be too far in the hole for it to work. But hey...its worth a shot because the tax code is so complex that it does more harm than good.

I always try to figure the angle on things. Regardless of the answer to a question if the answer is a viable solution it must become a possible choice. If your entire Economy was going down the toilet and your debt is greater than you can handle then you either run from it or fix it. So the real question is
If our government doesn't run from it, where are we going to get the money we need to pay the debt?
Likewise,
If we run from it, what are the short and long term ramifications?
This is not simple.........what do we have to sell that the world will buy in enough quantity that it will give us back our missing gold leverage?
Personal bankruptcy is one thing, Continental is quite another.

reply to post by the b rain


Yea but as you say it trickles down to us and since we as individuals have much less power than institutional governements, we cant handles certain situations fully and cannot run from anything. If we did....we will probably end up in jail. We can sell a lot of stuff....if all these things are true about hydrogen cells, engines running on water and electricity only, cure for aids and cancer....then why cant we develop them here? We have some of the best schools and brightest people why dont they band together to increase production of lets say, hydrogen fuel cells and sell them to the rest of the world? I would invest in that and im sure there are small companies already doing so but in order for anything to chane we need something as big as GE to take charge. But of course, greed has to be eliminated from the situation because the ultimate goal is the good of the whole country and its economy.
What do you think about this fair tax thing though? Will that help at all? Probably not right, since the country itself is in so much debt...

reply to post by LightinDarkness

And you wonder why no one responds to you except the one or two tin foil hat people who believe you. :down: Ignored

If you personally attack me again I will report you. Is that clear?




[edit on 12/13/0707 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by jackinthebox


We gotta work together on this one....i dont wear a tin foil hate by the way and the only reason this guy doesnt agree is because he isnt in the same position most americans are and probably never was. Good form my friend in not stooping to his level.

wanna know the funny part about the NWO, its gonna get to the few of them verses the masses when they screw everything up, I'd hate to be related to these folks when the info hits the public, with the knowledgable folks we have on this planet, id give it a bit before i would say the nwo is winning.

Life on this planet is about to change far more then these elite as they call themselves can imagine.

one word. Karma. ( the energy you put in, is the energy you recieve. )