Anti-war Democrat Murtha Says the Surge is Working

I think you all should read this article...

The truth of the matter is that the much-hyped success of the surge and the return of the refugees is as big a bosh as Bush's WMDs. The streets of Baghdad and Mosul remain deadly killing grounds and the refugees are being manipulated like pawns in a political bunko game to get a U.S. president elected. Moreover, the myth of their return is a cruel hoax that could shred them of the legitimacy of sanctuary.

Source

Originally posted by centurion1211

And did the surge contribute to the mahdi army wanting a ceasefire (to avoid all being killed)? And did the surge induced drop in violence help the iraqi people come out and start helping themselves?

Many think that's exactly what has happened - including leading democrat critics of the war.

Take a look at this guys. A rather disgusting view into post occupation Iraq, in this case Basra. Is this what the rest of Iraq has to look forward to once and/or if the US leaves.

I put this up in response to your above quote Centurion because this is what the militias are doing when the occupying forces leave.

Remember when watching this video women once had rights in Iraq. Now thanks to our occupation hey are now subject to muslim laws.

Thank god i opposed this war from the beginning, I would not want this blood on my hands.

'UK has left behind murder and chaos, says Basra police chief' link

BE WARNED: the video is graphic and not appropriate for all viwers.

[edit on 17-12-2007 by Animal]

reply to post by Bluess


Then why are even anti-war democrat leaders dropping the iraq war as a legislative and campaign issue? Surely, they have access to more and better intel and other information that the people in the media (and on ATS).

reply to post by centurion1211


The convenient answer that you'll probably get is that "well obviously, they must be part of the NWO, shadow government, been bought off, etc.."
The glass half full types will never concede anything positive having resulted, and certainly never give Bush any credit for it.

reply to post by centurion1211


I think the images we see from Iraq speak for themself. and the article i pointed to mention a couple of facts aswell so try reading it?

But if you choose to believe the surge has worked, i suggest you travel to Iraq, stand out in the middle of baghdad and go "our people free'd Iraq!!" and see what happens...

The surge has worked....I feel like puking over such statements

reply to post by Bluess


I suggest you go to Al Anbar province, where violent attacks are down 70-90%, and you can walk around in Ramadi without body armor, and not long ago, this province/city was the absolute worse place to be in Iraq. The attacks in Baghdad have gone down too, as they have in every other part of the country that had regular incidents. I also suggest you look at a wider variety of news sources to get a broader picture of what's going on.

Originally posted by Bluess
[
The surge has worked....I feel like puking over such statements

Is it truly the surge reference that is affecting your "digestion", or iI wonder if it isn't more that anything positive about the U.S., the military, even Bush, is causing your problem?

Maybe you feel the need to "get Bush" so badly that you would want to see your country fail and even more soldiers die to accomplish that goal?

You see, it's people with those beliefs that really get my guts churning.

i think the bottom line is this tread rests on two pillars

first, centurion you are right to a degree, the iraq war has at the moment taken a back seat to other issues. it is still there, the war funding bill for example, but it is not in the lime-light.you are also right that attacks have decreased since the 'surge' (or as i see it, escalation).

still i don't see this as a sign, we have 'won' in iraq. i don't say this out of discust for the miltary, gwbush (though i strongly dislike him), or anything else. it is out of rational thinking. the link i posted to the story of how women are being butchered in basara, the up and coming invasion of the north by turkey, the inability of the iraq government to find success, so many issues at hand. it seems like no matter what happens over the next year will leave th country in a situation in which we can leave in a good light.

so sure, the iraq war is less of an issue at the moment, but that is in no way a reasonable excuse to talk about the war in a positive light, let alone consider it won.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by Animal]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Is it truly the surge reference that is affecting your "digestion", or iI wonder if it isn't more that anything positive about the U.S., the military, even Bush, is causing your problem?

Look.. I'm getting a little hot here...
I remember history and i watch the news every day, I follow politics and other news of interest, I do my own research and have been following wars of the world, since I was a teenager.
My country was part of the coalition and I'm still ashamed of it.

This is not about hating Bush or america at all, its about opening your eyes and see what is going on.
You define "the surge has worked" = better conditions than before we invaded, so all is good...
I define "the surge has worked" = propaganda and blindness, due to people getting sick of this war and wanting their boys home.
Thats also the reason why an anti-war democrat would suddenly spin on the dime.

Maybe you feel the need to "get Bush" so badly that you would want to see your country fail and even more soldiers die to accomplish that goal?

Frankly I think this above statement tells more about you and your patriotisme and nationalism, then it tells about me. I find it repolsive and discusting.

I was appose this war, before it even took of, illigally and on the wrong conditions.
I am all for getting the troops home, but do it without propaganda to make people falsly believe that everything is allright please.

Don't ever think only U.S troops have lost lifes in Iraq! And don't think I endorse the killing of people.

If you wanna start a war illigally and claim that it is to free the people of the country, you have to stick to it, otherwise another agenda must have been the real course.

So basically the work aint done, and if you feel it is, than the war has failed, cause the people of Iraq, sure aint free yet.

I think the war failed before it even started.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
I also suggest you look at a wider variety of news sources to get a broader picture of what's going on.

You think that because i posted a link to an article, then that most be the only news source i read?
You know nothing of where i get my information from...

If you wanna make a personal attack on me person, please use some intelligent statement or put a little more effort in it, or even better ...don't.

reply to post by Bluess


No personal attack- I'm just going to hold such assertions to a high standard. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's obvious by your spin on reality that you're unable to see beyond your agenda. The point being made was that other folks who share your view about the war were admitting that the surge has been successful in stabilizing the violence in Iraq. This shows that they are able to show objectivity.
The long term solution in Iraq will have to be an Iraqi one. All we can do is set the conditions. I'd think you'd at least want them to have a chance at being successful, rather than continue to spout off about how the war was illegal, etc.... The fact is, we are there. Once you've accepted that as what the situation is, you then have to ask what are the pros/cons of pulling out before the Iraqis can take full control? If the cons outweigh the pros, and you care about the outcome for the Iraqis, then you should support whatever measures will ensure that happens in the most expedient manner. If we simply pulled out- that would create a far worse situation than if we make sure the mission is a success. It's like Colin Powell used to say- you broke it, you buy it. Whether you agree with why we went in, in the first place is moot at this point. Success should be the only concern now.

Originally posted by centurion1211

That the surge is working to quell the violence in Iraq is good news for the Iraqi people and the U.S. soldiers stationed there, but bad news for Democrats and others against the war that were hoping to make the war a huge campaign issue for the coming elections.

[edit on 11/30/2007 by centurion1211]

Centurion, I though this article may interest you. Be sure you make it down tot he 13th and 14th paragraphs where they get into polls showing which issues are important to voters and thus candidates.

Economy Rivals Security

Enjoy =)