The Plan To Cheat The Cross

I found this nifty article on how Jesus was not killed on the cross, they deceived an entire empire. Im not sure how credible this story actually is but have a look and tell me your opinions

home.earthlink.net...

hmmm...I don't give it much credit. It seems to be going in believing that the Gospel is a work of fiction, and in so doing is going to present anything that will prove this person's point.

If you can dismiss any historical record we have of this incident, then it's easy to make such claims. If you want to stick to history, a Roman soldier stuck a spear into His side, and his blood and plasma ran out, having already seporated. Which means he had been dead for hours at that point.

And I've never heard of someone "surviving" the cross. It's my understanding that when you're put on the cross, it's an execution. They didn't have the "act of God" clause we have here in America. After a set amount of time, a Roman guard would go out and stab you in the side so you couldn't hold yourself up anymore and suffocated.

So highly dubious to outright fiction.

Interesting, point well taken. I don't believe half of what i see, and even less of what I read. I also agree that perhaps the author has skewed the document.

Originally posted by junglejake
They didn't have the "act of God" clause we have here in America. After a set amount of time, a Roman guard would go out and stab you in the side so you couldn't hold yourself up anymore and suffocated.

Rather than stab you in the side, they would break your knees. This would cause the body to push down on itself and cause suffocation.
There would not be a need to normally prove a person dead by using a spear in their side as crucified subjects were normally left on the cross for many days and time took it's natural toll. Jesus does seem to have died and been removed from the cross unusually quickly if you refer to the Bible as your source. Because of this quick removal of the body the spear seems to have been necessary to prove his death.
There are many such conspiracy theories that relate to the crucifiction - not all of them as ludicrous as they first seem. Either way there is no proof that Jesus either survived or died on the cross.

The story is quite ridiculous.

Because of the upcoming Sabbath, they had to be sure that the victims died quickly so they could get them off of the crosses. They went around to break everyone's legs to speed up the inevitable suffocation process.

They got to Jesus and he seemed to already be dead. So they shoved a spear head into his chest cavity via his side and likely piercing his heart. The blood and water flowed from his wound would have been from separtated blood as well as the fluid that would have built up in this lungs and chest cavity as a result of his slow suffocation.

If Jesus wasn't dead yet, he surely was after that.

The fact that John mentions the blood and the water is significant because John is simply stating what he saw. As in other places in all the Gospels, the writers include things that happened, not things that sound good. If John has seen the red wine and thought it was blood, he wouldn't have mentioned the blood and the water both.

Secondly, a person who has been drugged to the point of appearing dead will die very fast because motion is required to push up with your legs to avoid suffocation as you hang on the cross. If you're paralyzed or faking it...you're dead. That's why they broke the legs of the thieves, so they couldn't push anymore.

Third, a Roman centurian wouldn't make a mistake. The same would be true of the Romans who guarded his tomb. Their lives were at stake because failing to complete their orders would have amounted to treason, which of course carried a certain death sentence.

Fourth, if the crucifiction hadn't been complete and he had "fainted" (drugged, whatever) the burrial process which is recorded more than once would have killed him in his weakened state for sure.

Fifth, if Jesus somehow goes into the tomb alive, he'll starve to death before he comes back out, because the Romans aren't going to let anyone in there. Only a miraculous event gets him out of the tomb alive again...

Originally posted by junglejake
If you can dismiss any historical record we have of this incident, then it's easy to make such claims. If you want to stick to history, a Roman soldier stuck a spear into His side, and his blood and plasma ran out, having already seporated. Which means he had been dead for hours at that point.

I agree that this page was a load of bull. But your explanation of the "deathproof" can be a truth with modifications. You see I got this revelation a couple of years back when I fell down from a tree and punctured my longue. After a small operation which was quite similar infact to what happened on the cross. They pierced a hole in my side and stuck a draining pipe in between two ribs on the side. What happens when you puncture a longue is that the pressure inside the chest rises because of the leak from the punctured longue and if the air and fluids aren't let out you will suffocate. Fluids. Yes there gathers alot of fluid inside the chest when this happens. A mix of blood and water. So I believe that Jesjuah suffered a punctured longue, and the soldier which pierced him in the side, can possibly have infact saved his life by sticking his spear into his side, thereby letting out air and fluids. A punctured longue heals itself during a couple of days. But I do believe that Jesjuah was indeed dead when they layed him in the tomb. But his healing time can have been greatly shortened by that Roman soldier.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Reminds me of the theory of Rennes-le-Ch�teau.

Apparently Jesus didn't die, he was taken down form the cross by Joseph of Arimethia and lived to sire children, ect ect. Interesting read if you can find it.

DE

Cross question:

I vaguely remember something from Sunday school all those years ago and did not want to start a new thread to find out if it is true. Were people cruxified after Jesus was but with the crosses upside down? I remember being told that this happened because the ones being 'nailed' did not feel that they were good enough to be cruxified like Jesus and the Romans did it on request because it would hurt more.

Strange memory, because it (hanging like that) does not seem possible. I really don't know how half the stuff in my head gets there.

According to Islam, Jesus ( ESA) was not crucified, but one of his devotee's.

Deep

Yesy, Zero, I have heared that. I don't know who they claim suffered for him, but there are many possible explanations. One of the most popular ones is that it was Simon from Kyrene who died on the cross. Others claim Jesjuah had a twin brother. Leonardo Da Vinci was 100% certain of the latter. Study his paintings and you will notise how like in the Last Supper, there are infact two Jesjuahs. But I do believe that Jesjuah died on the cross, that he carried his own cross all the way and that he was stone dead when they lay him in the grave.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
According to Islam, Jesus ( ESA) was not crucified, but one of his devotee's.

Deep

Allah will never let any of his Prophets suffer like "Jesus" did.

That's part of the whole idea, that Jesjuah suffered for all the others. But just the same, prophets haven't exactly got it easier now than before. Haven't most prophets been killed?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Ummm, no... Name one prophet that has been killed.

I can't name one.

And why do you callh im Jesjuah? That's a new one but too bad that wasn't his name either.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Ummm, no... Name one prophet that has been killed.

I can't name one.

And why do you callh im Jesjuah? That's a new one but too bad that wasn't his name either.

Well, Jesjuah certainly knew more than a couple, and if he didn't need to name them, then I don't have to either:

Lukas 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them.

Or as he said it in his famous sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "

PS: And BTW Jesjuah is a better transliteration than the Latinised Jesus, of the Hebrew name Yah Shuah, form of Jehoshuah together wiith names like Hosea, Isaiah and Jesjuah, which means YHWH is Salvation. I choose to call him whatever I like. What would you say was a better transliteration? Yesyouare? Jadur?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Hamilton]

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Jesus had to die. To die and then rise again was the only way to defeat death. What did Sun say? "All warfare is deception." Jesus beat Satin and the forces of evil at their own game.

Jesus was also the only prophet to never sin according to two biblical passages.



See what gets me is that muslims will use the bible to disprove he is God, butalso forget the passages that say.



"" I have ccome to suffer and die for the sins ofthe world ""


even in Isaiah it says he will die for the sins of his people.



peace.

Originally posted by Truth
See what gets me is that muslims will use the bible to disprove he is God, butalso forget the passages that say.

Hmmm. Wasn't it you who accused me of attacking things I don't understand just a couple of posts ago in another thread? The reason they (the Muslims) really say Issa, Esa or Jesjuah is not God, is that, he must first win all the battles, and beat the devil for good so to speek before he can be called God. After the Millennium, that is more than 1000 years from this day forward, then Jesjuah is God for all, before that the servant must proove his Divinity with his life. The faithful will be priests and kings under God and his Messiah. During the Millennium only the Millennium Messiah is allowed to call Jesjuah God or to allow certain servants to call him God, for only he will know his new name. If a godless man says Jesjuah is God, it is an insult and will be punnished, but a rightious man may proclaim it from the mountain aphex.

Mohammed can say what he says, but not forever. That book will be subject for judgement like every other book the day the Millennium King assumes his position. Then the Ismaelites will have carried burdens long enough for the Romans and the Jews and the Babylonians and God knows who else they have had to run away from since Master Jesjuah left us with his Spirit, I guess, there will be Sabbath for all the rightious in a thousand years with all what that implies. We don't fully know what that implies, only the Father, therefore I wouldn't judge the things that can be easily explained. I just don't hope that you are godless, for then I am a fool to tell you this.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 8-2-2004 by Hamilton]

Now, if Jesus ( Esa ) did not die for eternal salvation for mankind, and for thier sins. This would explain the #hole society we live in rules by corporations fueled by thier own greed for power and money they hope to carry with them in the other life.

*spits on the ground and goes to eat some lucky charms *

Deep

Yes, it is that part I cannot accept. For Jesjuah DID die on the cross. And no Simon ever carried his cross. Do you honestly believe Jesjuah would allow that? I know the bugger, he would never approve. He did it all. You can take away much from him, but if you take away his sacrifice.... I wouldn't do that if I was you. There was a certain Antiokos IV Epifanes who tampered with his sacrifises back in 167 BC, Daniel spoke about it a couple of hundred years earlier, you don't want to do that....

Blessings,
Mikromarius