While we are funding a War on Terrorism, a War in Iraq, and the ongoing War in Afganistan, it still amazes me how peple can be in support of these policies, and will support allocating hundreds of millions of dollars to fund them.

Just as we are spending billions on wars around the world, some people in this country are living in abject poverty. Children are going to bed at night with empty stomachs. Schools are falling into such disarray, that metal detectors are required. The roads are falling apart beyond repair (ever been on I94 going through downtown Detroit?). Families are worried about how they are going to pay the gas bill. The homeless are freezing to death under viaducts. Millions have no health insurance.

And we are the wealthiest country in the world?

In the meanwhile, we are supporting three 'official' wars. (Terror, Iraq and Afganistan), not to mention the CIA funded militia's around the world. We are giving millions to Israel, Brazil, and the Philippines, to name a few. Charites are advertising ' a dollar a day can feed a family of five in Honduras'.
This came about because in a
What about us?

What if we would take those billions allocated annually to every country in the world except our own, and use the money to fix our own problems first?

This came about because in another thread about Saddam killing his own people as one of our justifications for the War in Iraq. I stated, " I don't give a rat's crap about what Saddam did to his people".

The truth is, I don't. I don't really care who is doing what to whomever; unless it is happening here. I care more about the guy acroos the street, with his heat cut off, more than I do about the 'poor' guy in India. I care more about the kid in school, who can't concentrate because he had nothing for lunch, than I do about some 'starving' child in El Salvador. (By the way, where are all the commercials about sending money to American families to help feed them?) I care more about the single mother in Chicago, with 2 kids, struggling to pay the rent before eviction, than I do about the 'poor' mother in Russia, struggling to do the same. I care more about the homeless guy in the dead of winter, trying to keep his fingers and toes from freezing off, than I do about some guy in Tibet who can't practice his religion freely.

I will probably get flamed for this thread. I am not a 'super-patriot, America is above everyone else, and other nonsense. I am just saying we need to look after our own, FIRST.

Heck, we won our freedom and way of life with our blood. I mean ALL Americans, from every walk of life and culture on earth, who happened to come to this country for whatever reason they had. We all sacraficed something for it, and I would hate to see our country rot from the inside-out, because we are not paying attention to our own problems. A very dangerous trend at the moment.

Peace on Earth.

Thank you for posting your concerns, nathraq.

I must agree that fixing our problems should be priority number one. As I mentioned in the other thread, our problems aren't as profitable (not in regard to fixing them).

What I find extremely disturbing is that some people justify soldiers' deaths in Iraq by comparing the statistics to those murders in Chicago 'The number of dead soldiers in Iraq is climbing above 500, but that's nothing compared to the murder statistics in Chicago for the last year so we're ok'. Shouldn't we concern ourselves with addressing the atrocities happen in our own backyard before we play referee in other countries?

I agree. We need to stop worrying about the safety of other countries and let things settle themselves. If that means the killing of innocent people, fine. They can leave if they want to. I think if we spent more money on our own problems, we'd see definite improvements. Less violence because police would be better funded, better roadways which equals less accidents, cities would be cleaner if they got money for bettering their city, and I think everyone would be generally happy. Plus, maybe NASA would get better funding and make that hover car, which would be gnarly.

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by BangorangRufio]

Some very good points made, nathraq. I don't think I could of said it any better. We also need to focus on 1 country at a time in wars, not multiple. We could easily finish one mission somewhere and move on to the next. Back on subject, the rate at which education is plumiting is rather scary. What will school's be like in 5 years? I also think Education is one of Bush's top areas that he wants to cover? Not doing too good of a job. It all comes down to the fact that we definitely need to focus on America at home.

Originally posted by nathraq
(ever been on I94 going through downtown Detroit?)

Yeah, I've been down that road, in December actually

Nathraq, well said. It is totally true and probably one of the hardest things to change. Now I wouldn't be as extreme to totally cut aid at once to all those we help. But I definitely would not be fighting wars on other lands. So how do we change this?

We need to speak up in a collective voice, write letters to so-called representatives and most important, we need to vote!! no excuses whatsoever. I don't want to hear anyone's whining about votes not counting, and electoral this and electoral that. Just vote. and NOT just the big elections, vote from the lowest level land perhaps then this country will have a chance to change.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Nathraq, well said. It is totally true and probably one of the hardest things to change. Now I wouldn't be as extreme to totally cut aid at once to all those we help. But I definitely would not be fighting wars on other lands. So how do we change this?

We need to speak up in a collective voice, write letters to so-called representatives and most important, we need to vote!! no excuses whatsoever. I don't want to hear anyone's whining about votes not counting, and electoral this and electoral that. Just vote. and NOT just the big elections, vote from the lowest level land perhaps then this country will have a chance to change.

Good Point!

But America is home of many of the world's largest corporations which make billions doing business around the world. Much of that money goes home to the US to be paid out as dividends and to pay head office salaries. The US cannot maintain its present standard of living by just looking inward any more than England could have during the Industrial Revolution.

Originally posted by THENEO
But America is home of many of the world's largest corporations which make billions doing business around the world. Much of that money goes home to the US to be paid out as dividends and to pay head office salaries. The US cannot maintain its present standard of living by just looking inward any more than England could have during the Industrial Revolution.

Hi, THENEO!!

I didn't mean becoming an isolationist. That would be absurd. But the money used for this little 'skirmish' in Iraq could have probably fixed our welfare system. The funds used for waging war are federal funds.

Businesses are privately owned ventures. We would sure be hurting economically if they pulled out of the world market. They are not the primary source of funding for schools, highways, and social services.

nath,

but of course you are right, who am I to disagree.

But oil is the most precious commodity in our controlled world and without it the US is no superpower.

that is the problem, we only have so much in our pockets at anytime and so many potential ways to spend it.

But if we dont prop up those countries where will all the politicions and there buddies in big business send all of our jobs?

I am not kidding I am serious

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by Amuk]

I found Neo's post interesting. When refering to the States he said "we", which we aren't. Canada is a seperate country, but it is true. We are linked in a way only geography and history could produce. I think that's why many Americans were put off when Canada didn't support the Iraq war.

I think every time the government starts a new war their children should be the first ones on the front line. I think that, that would help make soldiers lives less disposable.

[Edited on 1/30/04 by NotTooHappy]

Originally posted by nathraq
I didn't mean becoming an isolationist. That would be absurd. But the money used for this little 'skirmish' in Iraq could have probably fixed our welfare system. The funds used for waging war are federal funds.

Businesses are privately owned ventures. We would sure be hurting economically if they pulled out of the world market. They are not the primary source of funding for schools, highways, and social services.

Taxes from those businesses are the direct source of those federal funds you are speaking on

We don't particularly need to *fix* the welfare system.

What could be argued though is that we need to disband it.

Along with eliminating a plethora of pork barrel operations that do not directly contribute to the welfare of the citizens. Cut funding to the NEA, eliminate housing allowances for public officials, eliminate purchasing entire new fleets of vehicles for new government agencies when GSA already has thousands of vehicles sitting idle in the Fed Motorpool.

Useful as well to eliminate any further payroll expansion for the Senate and Congress, who have a bad habit of almost every term voting themselves a raise.

Essentially look at the elimination of almost any spending on anything that does not provide a direct and immediate return to the citizens.

Foriegn relations, common defense, basic infrastructure.

But as long as the US continues its downward spiral in the imitation of the failing European Model of Social Welfare States we will continue to see the degredation of our system.

If a socialist system doesn't work for a nation that is slightly smaller then say the state of Oregon (i.e. the UK) then it can't be expected to work for a nation vastly larger.

As Einstien said, insanity is defined by doing exactly the same thing time and again and expecting different results.

Funding not only the sometimes questionable actions of the US abroad, but then also the less then friendly allies and those who are down right hateful, has done nothing to take care of things at home.

Isolationism is not the key either, but I would agree with you that setting the priorities of taking care of our own first would be a good start at reseting the US priorities to something more worthwhile.

On a satirical note, it would be humerous to observe the results the first time either the UN or Europe came hat in hand again to the US to resolve one of their problems only to be told, 'Good luck kids, you are on your own'.

At the very least I might feel a little bit better about loosing 65% of my gross income to taxes every year right off the top.

[Edited on 30-1-2004 by justicar]

Justicar just set a record. The newest member to ever receive my vote for way above!!

Well said!!!

I agree that the US needs to look out for its self first. The problem is, like theneo said, the US is completely dependent on oil for it's economy to be stable. The most powerfull thing in the US arsenal is its economy - we made the only other superpower in the world collapse simply by challanging it to try and outspend us!

I believe that the war on terror and Iraq are, at heart economicly based. We have to have that mideast oil, and terrorism must be stoped not only to prevent thousands of deaths like on 9/11, but also because it threatens our economic stability.

As for Isreal, I really resent the fact that we basically fund their millitary. The fact that it is pollitical suicide to even talk about cutting funds to this place is BS. They give us nothing back - in fact, we have caught them spying on us many times, and they even sold F-15s and other aircraft to the USSR during the cold war! Some ally. This is the same country that has a completely US funded national missle defence system WHEN THE US DOES NOT HAVE ONE FOR IT'S SELF. I am sick and tired of having BILLIONS of US dollars going to places like Isreal and third world places when they offer nothing back.

And then there is the UN...... A bunch of countries that use US tax payers money to fund an organization of foriegn powers that basically try to dictate to the US what it can and can't do. I say if there is going to be a UN, the US shouldnt be paying for everything - every country should pay equal. When the UN decides to take action, the US can sit a few conflicts out for once, instead of being the unoficial UN army. And good for Bush that he didnt listen to the UN when they didnt want us going into Iraq - screw the UN - do what is right for this country!

Nathraq, I have three arguments why you are wrong...*

*You know what I mean.

1. Just tell me why you love America that much! There is no such thing as true American.

That poor guy in India could be your half-brother or that starving child in El Salvador could be distant cousin.

If a Brit (no offense) or a Cuban or Chinese said what you said I would accept, because for the most part they are pretty much from the same ancestors(not really, but same ancestory compared to Americans) but in your case you aren't.

America is the land of oppurtunity and millions have come from all over the world and settled here. Many U.S. citizens know only their majority race...I heard people tell they are half-irish and half-german...but that isn't entirely true, you are probably a Frenchie and Brit and Swedish, and you don't even know it.

2. What is so different about you and that guy in India or El Savador or Russia? Did you not come through ancestors...from Africa? Do they eat with their legs and you eat with your hands? Tell me what is so different.

Why do your desereve anything better than them? Give me one damn good reason. Did God make U.S. so special that they should get all the happiness and money that there is offer?

3. How about all the money the U.S. government is spending on Space, Science and not to mention another thousand places?

Could you not take that money and used to feed your Chicago mother of too?

If she is more important than the same Russian mother, why don't you stop wasting money and send it to to her? You alone are wasting so much money on Entertainment, Furniture, Clothes.

No, you wouldn't rather sit at home and complain that the U.S. is wasting money helping other countries, rather than helping. People like you think donating $100 every chirstmas to Salvation army is enough, but it really isn't.

If I have said anything that might have offended you slightly in any way, please forgive me.

Peace.
Surfup

Originally posted by NotTooHappy
I think every time the government starts a new war their children should be the first ones on the front line. I think that, that would help make soldiers lives less disposable.

[Edited on 1/30/04 by NotTooHappy]

So we should punish people who had nothing to do with what the politicians are doing, instead of sending people who signed a form that said they are willing to risk death if their government deems it necessary?

Many politcians children through history have fought. Hell, old Kings used to have their sons lead the armies to battle.

Surfup, let me put this in the simplest terms possible, it should eliminate any more arguments about this.

Let's say every one this planet were your blood relatives, you have contact with them all. Now a suddenly alot of them are feeling hard times. Wouldn't you start helping your family by helping the ones closest to you first? Once they relatives closest to you are well, they can in turn then help those closer to them...the chain goes on. But in order for the chain to be strong, you have to start in point A, make point B strong before you move to point C.

follow my drift?

Surfup, let me put this in the simplest terms possible, it should eliminate any more arguments about this.

Let's say every one this planet were your blood relatives, you have contact with them all. Now a suddenly alot of them are feeling hard times. Wouldn't you start helping your family by helping the ones closest to you first? Once they relatives closest to you are well, they can in turn then help those closer to them...the chain goes on. But in order for the chain to be strong, you have to start in point A, make point B strong before you move to point C.

follow my drift?

Yes I get it...but would you want to treat common cold on your family or Small pox on someone you don't know?

If you think in the above situation that you should treat your family first, there is no use talking to you.

Get what I am saying? Most of the U.S. is doing very well, but most of the other countires is not doing so well. So that is why we must take care of the bigger problem before it gets any bigger and leave the small problems for later.

Let's say every one this planet were your blood relatives,

It looks like that may be a more accurate statement than you think. The most recent studies are showing that "something" wiped out all but 200,000 humans at one point. Logic would tell me that they were probably concentrated areas un-effected by "something".
Point is we are all a lot more related than we may think.

Back to the topic.

Why exactly should the U.S. be accountable for a plague in some other country? To use your analogy, When I get a cold I buy myself some cold medicine. I don't go next door and demand it from my neighbor. If I can't afford cold medicine I get a better job so that I can. I see little difference.