Aliens Are Real-Naturally! So Why The Fuss And Skepticism About UFO’s?

I've been enjoying this site for some time as a simple observer, but I felt so strongly about what Mike posted here that I created an account just to peep up a bit. Please bear with me and my newness to ATS.

I absolutely agree with Mike. I, also, have privately asked likeminded questions and posited points and counterpoints to myself discussed in this thread for many years.

Folks here have argued just because something is probable doesn't mean it is. Or, that, simply having a chance of winning the lottery doesn't mean one will. The burden of proof is the closer of all arguments once satisfied.

I disagree. And Time is why I think Mike is right.

We're not talking about billions of years here. We're talking about billions upon trillions upon quadrillions of millenia multiplied by factors of itself. Time is so vast, it's conventional meaning and implications are rendered meaningless. I have a hard time wrapping my head around 500 years...

Given enough time, as the universe clearly has, I argue that it is a forgone conclusion all probabilities, fantastic or otherwise, have happened or eventually *will* happen.

The universe is timeless - it doesn't matter how - whether God put it here or it Big Bangs itself hundreds of trillions of times over. The universe has all of time, all of space and all of matter to work with. And that's all it needs to render a great deal of extraterrestrial life arguments academic. If it doesn't exist - it has - or it will - or obviously, it currently does.

If there are microbes on Mars, that make US the big, scary, advanced ALIENS, right?

So, my point is, is that if you have infinity to play that same lottery ticket, or infinity to select the correct grain of sand from a beach, "if" becomes "when".

If they're here, we won't know it. Unless we start looking very *very* carefully.

I have a great deal more to opine about on this extremely fascinating topic and Mike's original question, but I do not wish to wear out my welcome.

edited for typo

[edit on 31-10-2007 by guavas]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Hmm I thought I kind of explain all this, but I would say the odds for us being unique is almost off the scale.

It depends on how you calculate the odds. Using what we know right now, today, the odds are about 1:1.

You my friend are under the assumption that since we do not know of other life then we must assume it is not there.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you can't say absolutely say there's other life somewhere simply because there might be similar planets out there. Although, assuming the existence of anything without proof is probably not a good idea, either. That's called "belief."


You also assume that since we cannot recreate life from chemicals then once again we must be unique. You are basically saying that the limitations of us humans is enough proof that we are alone.

Not quite. What I'm saying is that not only do we not know how to mix chemicals together to create life, nobody even knows how chemicals could have come together to form life. That also means nobody has the slightest idea of the odds of such a thing happening. It's entirely possible that it's so rare that we're the only life to ever happen, and we are alone in the universe.

On the other hand, if it's discovered someday that life easily happens (somehow) if you mix a few of the right chemicals for a few years in the right electromagnetic environment, then it will be easier to say that the odds of other living things existing out there are pretty high. Unfortunately, the only way that may be discovered is if somebody manages to create life in a sterile laboratory here on Earth, or if we happen to find it on some other planet. Which makes the whole argument about whether or not life exists elsewhere moot, since it will have been found.

There might be other life out there. Or not. But it would be wrong to just assume there is.

reply to post by guavas


Welcome to ATS, guavas.

My only problem with the title and the idea behind it is the notion that if it could be, then it must be, and then it is.

I usually give words their dictionary meaning, and because of that my words were once responsible for a trial that could have been avoided in the inquest phase, and I was a witness for the defendant.

So, to me, saying that something like alien life forms are real implies proof of it, real things can be proved or at least we can have proof of their effects on other things.

But I think that it is very likely that there are intelligent life forms outside Earth, even maybe life forms based on a completely different basic building blocks than our own, and I do believe that there are things that are seen in the skies and that defy identification by those that see them, but sayin that UFOs are vehicles to unproven alien life forms is stretching it a little too much.

Originally posted by guavas
The universe is timeless - it doesn't matter how - whether God put it here or it Big Bangs itself hundreds of trillions of times over. The universe has all of time, all of space and all of matter to work with. And that's all it needs to render a great deal of extraterrestrial life arguments academic. If it doesn't exist - it has - or it will - or obviously, it currently does.

[edit on 31-10-2007 by guavas]

The problem is anything before the big bang or anything in another universe if there are endless universes means nothing to us. The reason is because all that is outside the dimensions of our universe, and so it really doesn’t affect us in anyway. We might have unlimited dimensions but they will still be in our universe no matter what we do or how many we can travel to/through. Because of this I do not get the point you are trying to make.

[edit on 31-10-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Nohup

On the other hand, if it's discovered someday that life easily happens (somehow) if you mix a few of the right chemicals for a few years in the right electromagnetic environment, then it will be easier to say that the odds of other living things existing out there are pretty high. Unfortunately, the only way that may be discovered is if somebody manages to create life in a sterile laboratory here on Earth, or if we happen to find it on some other planet. Which makes the whole argument about whether or not life exists elsewhere moot, since it will have been found.

There might be other life out there. Or not. But it would be wrong to just assume there is.

I just feel that if you walked along an endless beach of sand and looked down and saw a diamond you would assume that is the only diamond on or in that endless beach without taking another step forward. We haven’t even taken a single step forward to look for more life and even though we have abundance of life here and an endless supply of planets positioned in the right orbit around their sun such as earth is it is wrong to assume that there is other life.

I do get your point, but I find it useless since it is basically states nothing is probable until there is empirical data to prove it, and this totally discounts any form of probability theory.

One empirical fact that I do know; it is 100% that life lives on an earth like planet.

Originally posted by guavas
We're not talking about billions of years here. We're talking about billions upon trillions upon quadrillions of millenia multiplied by factors of itself. Time is so vast, it's conventional meaning and implications are rendered meaningless.

Given enough time, as the universe clearly has, I argue that it is a forgone conclusion all probabilities, fantastic or otherwise, have happened or eventually *will* happen.

Well brought out guavas!

Are we agreed that the chemistry that underlies life on Earth is abundant throughout the universe? If so, then most likely life is everywhere, spread throughout the entire galaxy and widespread across the universe. But then how do we prove that it is so widespread?

As we are aware, life's basic building blocks comprise a group of chemicals known as nitrogenated aromatics. By spectral analyses, scientists have concluded that these nitrogenated aromatics exist throughout the Milky Way galaxy. They can be found in the dust around stars, on comets and in interstellar space.

"It is well established and becoming more and more clear that the basic organic molecules which seem to have led to the origin of life on Earth -- as best we can reconstruct it -- do seem to be widely distributed in the galaxy. Carbon behaves as if it wants to get together to form complex molecules. There's no question that this stuff is widely available in our galaxy and presumably in the rest of the universe. If all life needs to get going, are these starting materials and a watery place, it's probably common." David Grinspoon, principal scientist in the department of space studies at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colo.
www.spacedaily.com...

And then, Streptococcus mitis, a bacterium that infects the nose and throat, was inadvertently sent to the moon aboard the Surveyor 3 probe. The bugs were still alive when Apollo 12 astronauts retrieved the probe's camera two and a half years later!

If these bugs could survive for two and a half years in space, then why can't alien life survive on planets which much less harsh conditions?

So are we alone? I’ll bet my bottom dollar, we aren’t!

Cheers!





[edit on 1-11-2007 by mikesingh]

reply to post by mikesingh


Given the size of the universe, not to mention all the different stars, planets, etc which astronomers have both SEEN and NOT SEEN, anyone who honestly believes that there is no other intelligent life out there somewhere is either a total idiot or they are deluding themselves out of ignorance and fear.

Originally posted by arkhanum
Given the size of the universe, not to mention all the different stars, planets, etc which astronomers have both SEEN and NOT SEEN, anyone who honestly believes that there is no other intelligent life out there somewhere is either a total idiot or they are deluding themselves out of ignorance and fear.

Oh boy!! You're sure to get hauled over the coals for this by the skeptics here !! Hope the more intelligent among them get the point!

Cheers!

I think using the size of the universe as the basis of such an argument kinda false.

The universe is huge, there are also, so they say many more dimensions. So we can never be sure of what is actually real or possible, imho.

The multi-universe and multidimensional reality of all that there is, blurs possibilities and probabilities and you can't prove a negative.

The thread argument that aliens exist because the universe is huge could apply to the possible or probable existence of almost anything....Santa Claus, tooth fairy or even an intelligent US President.

Possibilities and probabilities don't cut it for me. If a grey were to share an imbibement down the local Witherspoon's and buy me a packet of crisps or done my shopping for me at the local Supermarket then I would know...not guess, hypothesise, postulate etc. Anything else is just a fertile imagination.

I object to the fact that the more gullible believers, maintain that sceptics / debunkers do not believe or want to believe. As someone said in another thread...I don't want to believe I want to know. I will be happy that ET is proven to exist...but my burden of proof is higher than dodgy pictures, unreliable witness reports or undiagnosed psychological episodes.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof...I think someone once said.


Just 2 Euros..

Quote:

I have a pet notion (not even good enough to be a theory) that complex forms, such as a single cell, may be constructed in reality from virtuality in the past by the consciousness/ intelligence/ imagination of someone or something in the future. Doesn't have to be "God," whatever that is.



I have pondered the same thing!

I believe that all the "stuff" of the universe is NOT what is real. I think that when the mind creates a thought, it pulls from the greater part of the universe, potential, and moves a tiny bit of it into our reality. Where there is matter, there is a tiny bit of potential missing. Where there is space is where everything important really is.

This is essentially the reverse of common thinking.

When a person says that the universe is empty except for a few things, I think the truer situation is that the universe is packed full of extremely dense matter and energy, which is almost perfectly homogenous, except for those rare places where something we would consider "real" exists.

The transition from all this potential to our reality merely requires thought and faith enough that it will happen. Our little minds can affect subatomic particles in the short term, and a sequence of events in the long term because of our planning (which, when we have faith enough, our plans come to fruition) but we are not yet at the level of being able to manipulate objects reliably with thought or affect changes in matter or energy outside of what we believe is possible. But, as science and knowledge progress, we find that those abilities existed all along, we were just too stubborn to believe that we could find a way.

I have read many interesting things in this thread both to support and dismiss aliens and UFO’s. The math says it’s a possibility of other life out there. That’s all well and good but people ask for the evidence. Well here it is.

We have witness accounts like the Brown’s who have told the world about their own abduction experience. They describe medical procedures done to them that are now at this time starting to be used. How about the detailed map of the solar system that is now mapping out to be correct. I don’t think they were capable to see into the future or they would have claimed that. This is only one of many accounts.

Let’s talk about the government for a minute. Is the government going to tell its public “yes they are here visiting us and there’s not a damn thing we can do to protect you from them” no, I think not. I would think they would try to get something out of it at best. Remember the government has told us over and over that a percentage of its population is expendable.

Now how about NASA. Here is an agency that goes into space not for profit but to do what has not been done. Let me put that another way, to do what WE have not done. Space exploration, global mapping, experiments and so on. In the last hundred years we have had a technological explosion. We have television and have gone way beyond that. We went to the moon. We use lazers in everyday life now, there are too many things to list but you get my point. If a civilization begun fifty thousand years before us is it hard to imagine they could have the technology to visit us?

I don’t believe the government will be able to hide this much longer. With other country’s like Mexico releasing information to the public and pressuring the U.S. to do the same, I say we will soon know more than we may want too.

If UFO’s and aliens are connected or even intertwined in most of the religions of Earth as many now believe…. That’s a huge mouthful there, think about the implications. I don’t think any Government would like to be a part of that one.

Hmm… I got a little bit deeper there than I intended but there it is. It’s a lot to swallow and would be huge to deal with. There is a lot going on here and we may never know it all but who knows.

China announces they are going on a manned lunar mission. Mexico releases military evidence and other country’s pressuring the U.S. It is going to come to a head soon. I wonder if we really want to know the whole truth.

Originally posted by xEphon
Thats an ironic statement.
First of all, probabilities have a direct correlation to facts.

Precisely. And facts are "whole". Facts come from "knowledge". Knowledge is limited. Limitations are whole. The fact about energy is that it isn't limited. It is eternal. Eternity is not a whole, it is immeasurable. Bring space/time and energy together and you will see that space and time are eternal if you give it enough thought.

Probabilities are not "merely" possibilities, as some have been using as an argument for justification against this debate.

Probabilities exist as odds in limited systems.

It's a false representation of the meaning of a probability. Using that logic a probability of 1:1 would have the same meaning as a probability of 100:1 or 1,000,000:1. If your argument is that they are all "merely" possibilites than the concept of what is probable is meaningless.

No, it's not false. It's only a misunderstanding. The meaning of probability holds credence in limited systems. Probabilities are meaningless when the possibility is eternal because they would all be "true".

Give me 1,000,000,000:1 odds that if I play the lottery tonight I will win and I promise to split half with you - WHEN I win. I'll take my chances and marginalize the IF part of that.

Sounds like a good deal, for me. Imagine playing a lottery that never started and never ends; are you a winner or a loser? I'd say that would make you both simultaneously. You're a loser because you can't win and you're a winner because you can't lose. Maybe after you get past that thought you'll see that you're also neither a winner or a loser because you can't win and you can't lose, you're the eternal possibilities and probabilities that are "true" as whatever they may be... thought of only in terms of energy. You're zero, you're neither above nor below. You have no locality because there is no wholeness of reference. You are nowhere and everywhere. You realize no-where and now-here. You're neutrality and balance. You're neither better or worse than yourself, because yourself is the 0 eternity. Maybe my mind has already evolved to one of those type 5 or 6 civilizations But I'll take you there if you listen carefully.

So... if you wish to limit time and space, then you can also limit the probabilities and possibilities thereof. The tricky part is convincing energy that it is limited. The thing is... energy will always bring you to the idea of eternity, or the idea of eternity when applied thoughtfully will bring you to the never ending and never beginning abyss of space and time and its possibilities and probabilities. I'd say the notion here that needs to be cleared up for us to not believe in the existence of extra-terrestrials, besides the fact that we are in contrast to another planet even in our solar system, is to prove that energy is not eternal. The laws of thermodynamics can't even claim such. The logic system of this planet is built on limitation and conflicted duality.

[edit on 3-11-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by Develin
We have witness accounts like the Brown’s who have told the world about their own abduction experience. They describe medical procedures done to them that are now at this time starting to be used. How about the detailed map of the solar system that is now mapping out to be correct. I don’t think they were capable to see into the future or they would have claimed that. This is only one of many accounts.

My problem with witnesses is that what they say that they saw may not be the truth; they may have a wrong interpretation of what they saw, they may have seen just an incomplete (and because of that incomprehensible) part of the whole scene, and they may even lie.

And what "Browns" are you talking about?

Planet System Similar to Ours Revealed.

Well, we're getting closer to finding ET life, aren't we?

Scientists announced today (06 Nov 2007) the discovery of a fifth planet in a distant star system that now looks like a "cousin" to our own. The newest member of Cancri 55's family lies within the star's habitable zone, the region around the star within which water can exist in its liquid state.

Another possibility is that a moon in orbit around 55 Cancri's newly confirmed planet could harbor liquid water, and perhaps life, the researchers say. "To go from the first detections of planets around sun-like stars to finding a full-fledged solar system with a planet in a habitable zone in just 12 years is an amazing accomplishment and a testament to the years of hard work put in by these investigators," Briley said.
www.space.com...

Cheers!

how can some of you people argue against the fact that life is out there...hear me out. We are approximately 96 billion miles away from the sun. Now that is not by chance. The earth is that far away because of gravity. The earth could not be any bigger or smaller because it would then not be in the same orbit to form life. Now anybody reading this has seen the 'deep space hubble photo.' In just a pinpoint in the sky, there was what 30? 40? galaxies. And each galaxy contains Trillions of stars...In our own galaxy, there are trillions of stars. So if you are going to argue that there is no other life out there, you are extremely closed minded. In fact, we are probably going to find life on a moon of jupiter, and thats in our solar system. So to dispute that there is no other life in our universe is just plain dumb!! Open your mind to a huge world of possiblity.

reply to post by drew1186


The only problem I have with your post is that you say "the fact that life is out there".

That is not a fact, it's just a statistic possibility. Until we have real proof of that, it is only just a possibility, not a fact.

And this has nothing to do with "open minds", possibilities are possibilities, facts are facts, and the fact is that we haven't found (as far as we know) any clear and unequivocal proof of life outside Earth.

Originally posted by ArMaP
Possibilities are possibilities, facts are facts, and the fact is that we haven't found (as far as we know) any clear and unequivocal proof of life outside Earth.

Unequivocal proof? You'll be surprised! Check out my new thread coming out soon!! (Oh darn! Not another thread my mike!! )

reply to post by mikesingh


As long as you keep the punctuation count low on the title I don't have any problem with your threads.

As a matter of fact, your threads are usually based on some well researched subject (at least the most recent ones), and you are not responsible for the people that post on them.

Originally posted by mikesingh
oh boy!! You're sure to get hauled over the coals for this by the skeptics here !!

Hope the more intelligent among them get the point!

Cheers!

I doubt you'll find many sceptics who would say there is definately no life in the universe, although you will get many who say alien life has not visited the earth, and rightly so in my opinion.

Can I also ask, am I classed as a sceptic (

Originally posted by Corum
Can I also ask, am I classed as a sceptic (