Remember Me - A Soldier's Plea!

Originally posted by Chorlton

Hold on just a minute here. Thats what they signed up for. They knew that if they joined the army there would be a damned good chance they were going to have to leave everything theyve known and loved and to be sent overseas to kill people. They knew that. f they didnt want that then they shouldnt have signed on the dotted line. No one forced them so please stop with the sentimental claptrap.

It is because of our brave men and women who serve, that any one of us can sit here on our computers and anonymously criticize about the government, and the very troops themselves.
Godspeed my brothers in arms.

Or couldnt it simply be that they wanted the adventure and risk and thoughts of using big guns and shooting people like theyve seen in all the glorified war and cowboy films, which glamourise war and death but never show the harsh realities of it?
War and killing has been drummed into us for many thousands of years.
But if could have gone the other way, what would have happened if people had simply refused to fight?
As John Lennon said "suppose they had a war and no one came"

Yes soldiers are necessary *now*, but dont make it out to be something its not.
They know the risks and no one forces them to join

You make my case for me. Thank you.
Our brave men and women did join voluntarily. They did know that they might have to fight. Those that have signed up voluntarily recently knew darn right well where they were destined to go, and what they had to do.
'Sentimental Claptrap'? Sir, I will treat you with respect as a gentleman. I've read many of your posts and recognize that you are quite advesarial on many issues. I actually respect that. HOWEVER for you to imply that I, or anyone else who show respect for our troops is just showing a false sentiment is simply wrong.
Have you ever served?
Or do you simply type comfortably at your keyboard assuming you know of what you speak when it comes to issues of this nature?
Chorlton, as I've said, I've read many of your posts. I disagree with the majority of them, however I respect your opinion. You strike me as opinionated, but highly intelligent.
Are you trying to be a catalyst for an argument?
I respectfully disagree with you. For you to belittle those who have the mettle to serve is an insult.

reply to post by lombozo


If I wanted to be a catalyst for an argument I could have made a much better case.

I took issue with your post that stated:
" They are brave men and women who were ordered to leave their homes, their families, and everything they've ever known to risk their lives in a strange land halfway around the world. "

That post to me suggested that you were inferring that they were innocents who were dragged away from their loved ones to fight 'in a strange land hallfaway around the world'.
They were no such things. Which was why I called it 'sentimental claptrap'

THEY and noone else were directly responsible for being away from their families, homes and everything, no one else. They KNEW that was going to happen when they signed up. Many of them probably signed up to see a strange land halfway round the world.
Do I feel sorry for them? no I dont, they are doing what they want to do shoot and be shot at, to kill and to die. They read the document, they knew the risks, they signed the paper.
Do I feel sorry for WW1 and WW2 soldiers? yes I do because they were conscripts and had no choice, well, fight or be shot as traitor.
Modern day soldiers join up for a multitude of reasons, but they know, that what the army does is use force against other people with guns. When men pick up guns they know what that means.
If you dont want to kill, dont become a soldier.

And as for your question 'did I serve'? no I didnt.
I was in and out of OZ in the 60's when they had National Service but would rather have served 2 years in prison than kill people I had no argument with. I had 2 of my very best friends killed in Vietnam in a war that had nothing to do with them.

Originally posted by Chorlton
reply to post by lombozo

 

If I wanted to be a catalyst for an argument I could have made a much better case.

Then perhaps you should. So far I see very little relevance in your argument.

I took issue with your post that stated:
" They are brave men and women who were ordered to leave their homes, their families, and everything they've ever known to risk their lives in a strange land halfway around the world. "

That post to me suggested that you were inferring that they were innocents who were dragged away from their loved ones to fight 'in a strange land hallfaway around the world'.
They were no such things. Which was why I called it 'sentimental claptrap'

Then you read me wrong. These men and women who enlisted voluntarily, were dragged from the life they have previously known. I say dragged, and that is incorrect terminology. I will update that word with another. I will now say that they were transferred to a hostile designation. Did they know they might be transferred? You bet. I salute them for exactly that reason.

THEY and noone else were directly responsible for being away from their families, homes and everything, no one else. They KNEW that was going to happen when they signed up. Many of them probably signed up to see a strange land halfway round the world.

Do I feel sorry for them? no I dont, they are doing what they want to do shoot and be shot at, to kill and to die. They read the document, they knew the risks, they signed the paper.

I truly hope that you are being facetious.
How can I even post a reply to that?

And as for your question 'did I serve'? no I didnt.

I kind of figured - no disrespect intended.

I was in and out of OZ in the 60's when they had National Service but would rather have served 2 years in prison than kill people I had no argument with. I had 2 of my very best friends killed in Vietnam in a war that had nothing to do with them.

I salute your fallen friends. I do though respectfully disagree with you.

reply to post by Chorlton


Exactly right.
These soldiers chose to fight, they was NOT conscripted.
So when you have to pull a trigger, or witness a fellow soldier killed in front of you then dont forget that nobody forced you to sign up, this isnt Halo 3 its real bullets with real lives and no spawns.
I dont wish to kill or be killed in that way so I didnt join the army, pretty simple logic IMHO.
Stop whinging, I cant stand these 'soldiers' that want all the glory and pay but dont like the work involved.

I dont have a single tear nor a single ounce of sorrow for people who maybe should have seen past the glory, medals and the chance to moan on and on about how we all owe them.
Not brave, just stupid.
Dont like it, dont do it.
Its as simple as Sgt Stupid in Simpleville rounding up simpletons for simply a war against common sense.

Edit to add:
My grandparents didnt have a choice, they was forced to war, they didnt expect a pat on the back every 5 minutes and died knowing it was a waste of time.
Hero isnt a word I use for arrogant idiots who cry when they realise it isnt a video game.

[edit on 13/10/07 by eagle32]

Well first of all, these are some tough kids. The point of this video, that many here are obviously missing, is how hard it can be, while being away from their loved ones, fight a battle, being scared sh#tless. The fact is, certain ppl (chorlton) here, for instance, seem to think that their opinion on the matter is valid, and honorable when it is not. It is easy to judge others when the bullets are not shrieking past your head. Sure they signed up for it...but this is somehow propaganda because you think it is? That would be a biased opinion going the other way. ....Dont agree with the war, you dont have to. But be respectful for those who had the balls to serve, they are somebody's family member, somebody's everything. Show some respect, and emotion. life is to short to hold grudges. Stop trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and for the love of god, stay on topic.

reply to post by lombozo


I said:
"Do I feel sorry for them? no I dont, they are doing what they want to do shoot and be shot at, to kill and to die. They read the document, they knew the risks, they signed the paper. "

You said:
"I truly hope that you are being facetious.
How can I even post a reply to that? "

I wasnt being facetious at all. Tell me, why do you think people join the army? Grunts I mean, not Ruperts.

War,guns, killing is drilled into every little boy from the day he watches TV or plays soldiers in the garden.
The army, means being away from home, means living in barracks, means guns, means tanks, means agression.
Thats what they teach you, go running down the line screaming with a bayonet on the end of a rifle. And you think that isnt intened to kill?

When men are old enough to sign the papers, they KNOW, there is a high probabilility, of being taken away from home, (especially if they signed up in the last 15 years) they know they will be deployed elsewhere even within mainland USA, they KNOW with a high probability they are going to be asked to kill. NO ONE forces them to sign those papers, they want to play with guns, they want to kill, and with that goes the knowledge that, somewhere out there, their enemoy is thinking exactly the same thing.
Maybe they dont want to die, but, unless they are completely stupid they must realise that if you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger theres a damned good chance someone is going to do the same to them.

Like I said, I dont feel sorry for them. They are doing what they want to do, what they signed up for, no one forced them. They entered into the army of their own free will.

I repeat, if you dont want people shooting at you, dont join the army.

They are my opinions to which I am entitled.
I dont put soldiers down, I dont criticise them.
They are adults who are responsible for their own actions, doing what they want to do.
You put yourself in harms way, you must expect to be harmed.

Originally posted by eagle32
These soldiers chose to fight, they was NOT conscripted.
So when you have to pull a trigger, or witness a fellow soldier killed in front of you then dont forget that nobody forced you to sign up, this isnt Halo 3 its real bullets with real lives and no spawns.

Has it every crossed your mind that perhaps the military was the only way out for some? The military was their last resort? How about patriots? People who have an appreciation for history, who love their country and all the good that it represents. They are there for YOUR protection. "To Protect And Serve". Not to "KILL KILL KILL". Have you seen the affects first hand, of what that can do to a person? I know a young man, who served over in Iraq, him aswell as his scout group, were hit while moving on foot, by a roadside bomb. After they were hit, the insurgents came out to where they were, started shooting them to make sure they were dead, this young man was shot 3 times, he said "If you moved, they would shoot you in the head". He has seen more sh#t then you or anyone else here will ever see. Your judgment is quite irrelevant, that i assure you.

I dont wish to kill or be killed in that way so I didnt join the army, pretty simple logic IMHO.

And if we all lived in a land that you apparently live in, we would have been invaded and defeated long ago. What you and many other simpletons forget, is that had it not been for these brave men (generations past and present) we would be a defeated nation by now. Read my sig... The beauty about our nation today is, that if you are not willing to step up to the plate, and protect your freedoms, what you believe in, someone else will. There fore, we are safe from hostility's that mean us harm. Their life is on the line, yours is not. Which makes it even easier for you to judge others.

Stop whinging,

No one is whining, just showing respect like generations have in the past for the people fighting half a world away.

I cant stand these 'soldiers' that want all the glory and pay but dont like the work involved.

What a stereotypical generalization on your part. Most soldiers I know do not piss and moan about their job.

reply to post by katmandu


Wow kat... pretty much sums up how I feel right there.

I too support the troops coming home, not fighting an unjust war in the middle east. Sure they may believe that they're doing a great thing and bringing democracy to the people... just as some Arabs think they're doing a great thing when they blow themselves up in a crowd for Allah. Both sides are being manipulated by the "elite" to kill each other as pawns on a chessboard.

I wish people from both sides would take a step back and look at the big picture. These wars, this fighting, it's all a big waste of time, emotion, and lives.

Question authority.

Bringing The War Home

I very much respect the rights of each member to have their own opinions about this topic, but I think we're forging way too far into "flame war" country here. :shk:

Let's take another look at what Dave asked us in the OP:

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
How do YOU feel about YOUR COUNTRY'S SOLDIERS? How do YOU feel about WAR? Again, this is a controversial subject that requires restraint, courtesy and respect for those who have served, will serve and have given their lives for what THEY believed for THEIR COUNTRY.

PLEASE be RESPECTFUL in your comments. This will be a MOD SQUAD reviewed topic.

Dave asked nice, and I think his request deserves to be honored.

Topic Only

So let's not turn this into a debate thread, and leave the disagreements thus far presented where they stand.

Rather, I invite all members to share their candid opinions about the TOPIC, but let's refrain from commenting on the opinions of others, and instead simply respect their rights to express them.

I know this is an unusual stipulation, but at this point I think it's the best way forward, and there are plenty of other threads where we can debate the merits of war(s) or the lack thereof.

If you disagree with this decision or any action taken to enforce it, please submit a complaint or send me a U2U. Do not argue about it here.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

To Grandpa Fred, A German American who went to fight in WWII with the 101'st
To Uncle Allen who I never met who gave his life in Korea.
To the unkown soldier
To the men and women, past and present, who serve, have served, or have died in the service of thier country.
To the families if the aformentioned

You have and will always have the eternal thanks of me and my family for your service and your sacrafice.

Day is done,
gone the sun,
From the hills,
from the lake,
From the skies.
All is well,
safely rest,
God is nigh.

Go to sleep,
peaceful sleep.
May the soldier
or sailor,
God keep.
On the land
or the deep,
Safe in sleep.

Love, good night,
Must thou go,
When the day,
And the night
Need thee so?
All is well.
Speedeth all
To their rest.

Fades the light; And afar
Goeth day,
And the stars
Shineth bright,
Fare thee well;
Day has gone,
Night is on.

Thanks and praise,
For our days,
'Neath the sun,
Neath the stars,
'Neath the sky,
As we go,
This we know,
God is nigh.
synergy..._2.tripod.com/lyrics/taps.html

[edit on 10/13/07 by FredT]

reply to post by FredT


Amen.
I need not say more than my friend FredT just stated,
Thank you.

What a marvelous piece of propaganda, yes these people are human, they have family but they are the cutting teeth of a nation that has embarked on a course of war of global ambitions.

These are not the dark days of www1/2 America and its lackies are not fighting the oppressor the occupier or invader they choose to make war on nations and their peoples who can do little to protect themselves from the onslaught.

A local despot replaced by the insasiable appetite of a hyper power, a power that wishes to control the planet earth and its people. Well fellow members not one of you on this thread have mentioned those on the other side of the door, those are the countless, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters etc. that have benn killed, bombed, tortured etc. by those who you miss so dearly.

No film for them, their numbers are not even counted, they are just collateral damage in the quest for power. So if you want to shed a tear shed it for them not the ones who kill them, but for those whom have had their country invaded, occupide, looted and destroyed for they are the true victims of these terrible wars.

I've seen a couple posts already that defeat the purpose of the video/thread. You can support the troops and not support the war. Get used to it.

We all know that the "war" in Iraq is being fought by our loved ones... to the death... all the while, based on lies and deception. It's not the faults of the soldiers that are over there fighting. It's not the soldiers faults that they are over there killing people. We all know where that blame lies, and it needs to be directed there.

I appreciated the video.

If we all remember back a while, there was a bill sent through Congress that could have at least began the process of bringing our loved ones home, and it was shot down by the one with the most blame. Continued deception, and now to add to the mix, a democratic Congress of which we voted in to do just that, has/had no backbone to get the job done.

America spoke... our Federal Government did not listen.

Taken from a thread of mine a while back, this is a response I gave to my Congressional representative. Please read the thread...

Originally posted by Infoholic

Senator Pat Roberts,

I have received your correspondence and I feel I must express my disapproval in your reasoning. I am shocked at your blatant belief in the ignorance of the American people. I am extremely disgusted in this response, Mr. Roberts.

You stated: “As a former Marine, my first and foremost responsibility is to provide for the national security of the United States and our citizens. It is because of this obligation that I stand in strong support of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who are fighting overseas in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the War on Terror. I do not take the decision to send troops into battle lightly, and I am humbled by their daily personal sacrifices.”

First, as a member of the Marines you should know that your first responsibility is to defend the Constitution of the United States of America, as proven by United States Code (law)Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 31 § 502… which reads as follows:

--“I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”--

It is because of this obligation that you should see that your stance is incorrect, for several reasons. 1) The Constitution provides clearly that the laws of the land must be followed. There are inappropriate resolutions that have allowed this aggressive behavior by President Bush, of which the American people have asked for an end to such. 2) The “War in Iraq” is nothing more than a misused power by the President that was granted by Congress by H.J.Res.114. That resolution was not a formal declaration of war against Iraq. Or maybe it was S.J. Res. 23… which still has no clear cut defined enemy. 3) President Bush has repeatedly lied to the American people as to why our loved ones are in Iraq to begin with. First, it was the WMD. Second, it was to free and liberate the people of Iraq. Third it was to protect the oil. Fourth it was to continue the War on terror.

I, too, am humbled by the daily sacrifices that the troops make. However, I fail to see why the US troops constantly are put in the line of fire needlessly.

You go on to state: “As our military leaders have repeatedly testified in the past year, the key to winning the War on Terror rests with success in Iraq. To risk allowing Iraq to become a haven for those who wish us ill is an unacceptable risk I am not willing to take.”

The “military leaders” have testified that the success in Iraq is needed to “beat a ghost”? As I mentioned above, S.J. Res. 23 has no clear cut defined enemy. Congress has authorized the President to fight something that cannot be seen. Congress has authorized the President to fight anything he wishes it to be. You (Congress) have authorized a never ending war… a war about fear. Your stance, as shown in the above quote, proves that the “terrorists” have already won.


You further your statement as: “We are now sending more troops with the message to Prime Minister Maliki, the Iraqi government, and the people of Iraq that Iraqi forces must conduct the military action necessary to end the sectarian violence and achieve stability. [SNIP] I do not believe it is possible to support our military men and women, but not their mission. Rather, I offer them my full support in both.”

The only message President Bush is sending to the Iraqi government, is the message of failure. The message is clear. “If you can’t/won’t/whatever… we will.” The Iraqi government that has squandered the precious lives of our brethren will never take responsibility of their own nation if the US is always there to do it for them.

How preposterous?! Of course we can support our troops, but not the mission. Are you suggesting that the American people should blindly follow the warmongering that is clearly evident in today’s Administration? Are you suggesting that we, the American people cannot love our family members that are sent to Iraq… for something that no one to this day has any clear cut idea of why we’re there in the first place? Are you suggesting that we, the American people cannot be supportive of our troops and loathe the reasoning (or lack thereof) for the chances they take on a second by second basis? Or are you suggesting that you, as being the voice of the Kansas people, will voice your own will as opposed to the will of your constituents?

You final statement: “As the United States increases our presence in Iraq, I will continue to work to provide our soldiers with the best equipment, training, and support possible to see their missions through. I, too, want those who sacrifice so much in volunteering to serve to come home as soon as possible. However, it must be on our terms, and we must leave behind a stable and secure Iraq when we depart.”

You make it clear you, as well as the rest of America, want our troops to come home as soon as possible. What makes it possible? Is it the ousting of Saddam? Is it the freeing/liberating of the Iraqi people? Is it the safety of the Iraqi oilfields? Or will it be when the U.S. Military finally captures that ghost, the ghost of fear?


I wish to make it very clear to you, Mr. Senator. If this is your honest reasoning, it will be my obligation, as an American citizen, patriot, and Constitutional protector, to vote you out of office at your earliest term expiration.


I am truly very concerned.


I look forward to your written correspondence.


XXXXX XXXXXXXXX

And to no surprise to me... I've yet heard anything.


Again, people, remember... you can support the troops, unconditionally, all the while not supporting the war.

We must hold our elected officials accountable if we want the bloodshed of our brethren to end.



Info.

Supoport the troops but not the war, impossible, if you support one you support the other. On the one hand we are told the troops are just doing their job well they dont have to of they think the war is illegal and wrong then stop fighting and go home its as simple as that.

What some are saying is that the poeple have no choice, they know their goverment is corrupt but do nothing, well their is always choice, where are the mass demonstrstions, strikes peoples movements etc.

Its time to get of the fence, if you really care for these people then you will do something to bring them home.

Again were is the grief and sorrow for the hundreds of thousands of iraqi civillians that have died, no there is none is there.

A Friendly Reminder

This is not a debate thread.

Probably the best way to deal with this is to make one good post in response to the OP and let that stand as your opinion.

Posts that don't respect the request the OP and myself have made will be subject to deletion.

Oh my gosh! How did this thread turn into a series of posts insulting and degrading our troops and each other. I do not believe that that was the intent at all.

Stop it people and appreciate it for what it is. Stop calling others names and can we please please regain our civility towards one another.

Stop insulting the troops and calling them names. If you don't wish to be in the military fine and dandy that is your right; but it isn't right to continue to insult the men and women who do. I spent 10 years in the Navy and no I didn't join to go and kill. I joined because I believed that I owed my country some service and that is how I gave it. It is my firm belief that all of us owe our country whatever country that may be something back.

Maybe some troops would get more respect if they followed the Geneva convention and refused to follow illegal orders.

Armies have always enlisted the poor and the gullible to do the dirty work for their country. I might pity a soldier in an unfortunate situation but respect has to be earned. Some soldiers are worthy of it and others are not. If people would wake up and realise that these poor kids aren't dying to protect us at all but to further the greed and image of an illusiory and corrupt false science then maybe the troops themselves could be recalled from danger and put to more construcitve uses.

I am happy to respect the dedication and physical courage shown by any soldier of any nation in combat, that kind of thing takes guts and some of these guys have it in spades but when an ARMY, as a collective body, allows itself to be manipulated to expend itself in pointless and corrupt actions that do little more than further the wealth and prestige of a few then it is hard to maintain that respect. It is hard to maintain respect and admiration for those who allow themselves to be decieved because it is more convinent to toe the line.

So my feelings here are mixed.

We can't just pin everything on the government alone when OUR attitudes and actions make such a great contribution to the furtherment of their ridiculous policies.

One thing my feelings are not mixed upon is the exploitation of these people for the pruposes of propaganda. I am sure that looking at pictures of soldiers holding little birdies and writing "Hi mom" in cheese on hard tack really only helps to bring home the caring sharing 'new military' illusion that the government uses to romanticise the realities of war for the public.

[edit on 13-10-2007 by JimmyBlonde]

While I have a lot of respect for the subject matter and I am disgusted that some members cant put there partisan political views aside for one thread I do have a question.

Will any of the members replies on this thread be used in a future ATS Mix show ?

Cheers xpert11.

reply to post by xpert11


Speaking for myself alone I would say that my views are not party political. They are humanitarian. I would not see life wasted and the vulnerable exploited any longer.

To Mr. Rabbit. What a beautiful video. To me, it shows that these ppl are not just rabid, blood drinking, baby killers who eat small children. I feel that many here and elsewhere misjudge these brave men and women rather unfairly. These are human beings, they have family and friends, just as we all do. It is human emotion. Something everyone has (some people forget this).

To answer your questions...I feel a sense of pride for our soldiers. They are there for yours, and my protection. And its great to know we have some quality men and women who are there to protect us at a moments notice, to lay down their very lives, so that we may continue ours.

All throughout our history, we have had a sense of pride for our soldiers, past wars, past generations have had this sense of patriotism, yet today its called propaganda if you dedicate a video to our troops who are serving in a hell hole overseas? Its freedom of speech first of all (something soldiers have had to protect in years past) Do NOT mess with my constitutional rights by telling me what I think is wrong. I wont do it to you, do not do it to me.
War is bad, but i support it when its necessary. Iraq was necessary, though poorly planned. I support the troops, as well as the war.

Now, instead of hitting the "quote" button to respond to me, why not respect the OP and tell us what you think about soldiers of YOUR country and WAR IN GENERAL. This was not intended to be exclusive to the US. This goes for everyone. In some way or another, your countrys men and women are serving overseas so that you may not have to. What do you think?