IS America Mystery babylon the great?

reply to post by Katie

reply to post by Ethiopia21


Try reading over here, www.preteristarchive.com...

I still can't figure out how to work this site.

reply to post by SevenThunders


It is not a question of rejecting or accepting anything. I'm not querying the validity of the prophecies in question; I'm only querying the motives of those who use said prophecies to go on pointless witch-hunts. As I stated in my post, the same arguments now used to question America have been also used to finger out the Catholic Church, Financial Institutions, the European Union AND the Vatican City as 'Babylon'. Notwithstanding that fact, the prophecies are used in much the same way that horror movies are used for entertainment. They are ghastly, and are frequently quoted to 'scare' people into anticipating the second coming.

Your post appears to assume that the bible was indeed written (verbatim) by God. Let us not forget that it is in fact a bibliography that was compiled by a council of very human individuals, who carefully selected what would (and wouldn't) appear in it. Also, if this bible was authored (and copyrighted) by God, then shouldn't its adherents take it all verbatim? Why leave some parts open to interpretation, and other parts as word-for-word commands? It would appear that such a process defines one's God (and beliefs), and not the other way around.

Let us not forget too that this isn't the only time that biblical prophecies have appeared to be fulfilled. The end of time has been anticipated for hundreds of years; that one finds 'proof' now doesn't make it any more imminent than it was in 1975. With a society like ours, wars and other unpleasant events are inevitable. You don't have to be a prophet to know this. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread (and indeed, in this site), there are those who believe that the prophesied events have already come to pass. I don't pay any more attention to those than I do to the "Any day now" scenario -- but if you haven't, you should perhaps give them a read as well.

Now, I don't know where you got your information on mandatory chipping -- which somehow causes cancer and mind-control -- but I have no information to proffer, and my opinions on the matter are irrelevant. However, if you have evidence as to why I should be concerned about potential mind-control, you may proffer it to me however you wish, and I will consider it. Until then, I've got cancer covered with my cigarette habit, and I'm not going to live my days in fear because 'someone may want to control me'.

Be well; all further correspondence may be handled by U2Us as I will cease to participate in this thread. Cheers to all!

"Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"(Revelation 13:4)

The United States of America spends as much on its military as the rest of the world combined. The budget for next year is $419 billion, plus another estimated $80 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan for a total of $500 billion total. Here are some more facts. The U.S. military budget is eight times China’s, the second largest spender. The US military budget is more than 29 times as large as the combined spending of the seven “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria) who spent $14.4 billion, four times more than China and Russia and three times more than all of Europe combined

"glorified herself" - self-worship by worship of individuality, image

. "lived luxuriously", "filled with riches" - America is the richest nation on earth
. "with the moon under feet" - Apollo landing, only nation to conquer the moon
. "rules over the nations of the earth" - single superpower

. "given the wings of an eagle" - the eagle is a U.S. symbol, war effort is titled, "Operation Noble Eagle"

. drunk with the blood of the saints" - spiritually apostate

. "her sins reached to heaven" - leader in pornography, drugs, violence, greed

I was under the impression that "Babylon"
was a metaphor for everything which was not rooted or created by 'Divine'
instruction...

i.e. any and all things, governments, enterprises. etc
that are originated from the laws & rules crafted by 'men'
instead of 'G-d' inspired/instructed.


ergo, Babylon...is everywhere that the 'Divine' presence Isn't !

Originally posted by Ethiopia21
"Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"(Revelation 13:4)

your short circuiting your own rationalization & interpetation...

the Beast (the 'him' in your above quote)
is not also the Mystery Babylon woman, thay are two seperate parts
of the end time scenario.


also, in Rev 17...we are told the Mystery Babylon woman is also a city of seven mountains.
that seems to be the reason that Rome=Vatican has been identified as mystery babylon.
?Where in NYC or even D.C. are there 7 hills or mountains?
?Where in the world's annals is America known for it's 7 mountains?

Answer: the USA, NYC nor DC are the local of the Mystery Babylon woman... the Mystery Babylon woman represents the
socio-religious-economic-governmental dynamic in operation in the modern world...
historically born at the dawn of civilization, variously expressed in 'Nimrod',
the 'Chaldeans' on thru 'Babylon' (as Babylon was the last captor of Israelites and Jews) Babylon thus gained this negative descriptive name for all time,


food for thought;
modern Istanbul Turkey (formerly Constanople)
is also a city of seven mountains/hills, just like Rome is famous for.
Constantine in his eastern empire @ Constanople made the christian cult
the official rligion of all the roman empire both east & west !


the end-time Mystery Babylon, sits atop the Beast kingdom,
the 7 head, 10 horn Beast kingdom is also known as the Anti-christ kingdom
~~~ then in that 1 hour of a single day, the people in the city of the Mystery Babylon And the other 7 nations that make up the Anti-christ
kingdom will all turn against the Mystery Babylon whore & destroy it,
and burn it down in one hour....(now that would sound like a nuclear attack)


finally, in Daniel, we are told the kingdom of the anti-christ lies in the direction that is West and North of Jerusalem...
we are told that Gog-Magog is in the uttermost parts of the North, north of Jerusalem.
we are told of a fierce king that comes across the whole earth from West to East (its implies that this isn't a long march over land...its by flight including over water)


thanks for listening,




[edit on 30-9-2007 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio


'also, in Rev 17...we are told the Mystery Babylon woman also, in Rev 17...we are told the Mystery Babylon woman is also a city of seven mountains. that seems to be the reason that Rome=Vatican has been identified as mystery babylon.
?Where in NYC or even D.C. are there 7 hills or mountains?
?Where in the world's annals is America known for it's 7 mountains?'


Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Revelation 17: 9 says: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth."

The word "mountain" which we see in the King James Version and the New American Standard Version refers to the original Greek word "hora". The most scholarly of Greek lexicons tell us that the word in its most basic form refers to a large land mass. It usually was used for mountains. But it could also refer to a desert. Now, remember deserts are flat. So you might ask what does this have to do with the idea that Rome is being referred to? The answer is that most other newer English translations use the word "hill". Why these new versions choose to use the word "hill" is something of a mystery to me. Strong's Concordance dictionary does mention it in passing because elsewhere the KJV sometimes uses "hill" in reference to that Greek word "hora".

What we do know is that there was a different word in the Greek language that was generally used for "hill". It was the word "bounos". This word was actually a word of Roman origination. The Romans used this word exclusively for the 7 hills of Rome. The Greeks simply had borrowed this word from the Romans. Thus in the first century AD, anyone who was writing in the Greek and referred to Rome's 7 hills would use the word "bounos". To use any other word, like "hora" would be inaccurate. The Greeks and Romans both used the word "bounos" exclusively in referring to the 7 hills of Rome. Therefore, the question arises "why would the Holy Spirit choose the word 'hora' instead of bounos if He were referring to Rome?" The obvious answer was that the Holy Spirit was NOT referring to Rome. He was referring to something completely different than the city of Rome. Thus, we find a major flaw exposed inTherefore, the question arises "why would the Holy Spirit choose the word 'hora' instead of bounos if He were referring to Rome? the theory of not only Rome as Mystery Babylon, but also it is a flaw for those proponents contending that Mystery Babylon (whether of just chapter 17 or of 17/18) is the Roman Catholic Church.

this verse talks about nuclear holocaust....


"Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the
ground: there is no throne, O DAUGHTER of the Chaldeans: for thou
shalt no more be called tender and delicate. . . Thy nakedness shall be uncovered,
yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee
as a man. . . . And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst
not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
Wherefore, hear now this, thou that art given to PLEASURES, that dwellest
CARELESSLY, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I
shall no sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children. But these
two things shall come to thee in a moment in ONE DAY, the loss of children
and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude
of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou
hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom
and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; thou shalt not know from whence it
riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off,
and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know . . .
Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver
themselves from the power of the flame [nuclear holocaust] . . . Thus shall they
be unto thee with whom thou hast labored, even thy MERCHANTS, from thy
youth; they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee" (Isaiah
47:1-15).

Most Biblical scholars of the serious variety; as opposed to the fanatical variety, assert that the references in Revelations are not prophesies dealing with any end time per say, but rather specifically refer to the political and social events in the Roman empire of the day.

Work to help make this world a better place and stop worrying about what heaven and hell might do.

After all the Bible says that he shall come as a thief in the night and no man will know the time.

reply to post by Ethiopia21


Nonsense... total nonsense. All that was written during or about the Babylon captivity and there is no need to read anything else into it. Give me a bloody break.

Originally posted by Ethiopia21


also, in Rev 17...we are told the Mystery Babylon woman is also a city of seven mountains. that seems to be the reason that Rome=Vatican has been identified as mystery babylon.

?Where in NYC or even D.C. are there 7 hills or mountains?
?Where in the world's annals is America known for it's 7 mountains?'


Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

you are actually circumventing the clear intent of the message...

just how do you discount the biblical focus point which is '7 mountains/hills'
and blithly slide into the 'waters' issue ???

Your trying to equate the American open-door immigration policy to fit the
scripture...now that might seem a reinforcement of your spinn, that America is by general consensus the 'Whore'/Mystery Babylon.........

but, in the larger picture, the verse explains to us that immigration
into America may explain the multitudes, peoples, tongues....
but it does not explain the 'Nations'........
just how does a 'nation' become incorporated into the 'waters' that the whore' dominates?
do those peoples surrender their sovereignty? how many years?


no, once again, this idea is more likely the worlds' general consensus
of following a corrupt and hedonistic, along with; elitiest, oligarchical, rape-the-earth business & political culture...
it is not pointing a finger at America (w/rampant capitalism)
but at the culture of elite demi-gods--- at all levels--- all over the planet !

The Bible is a collection of storys, historical facts, etc... put together by man, it was God that inspired those writers to write what God had wanted us to know.
There is much more to read that they didn't put in the Bible, without it they can teach you what they want, which is what they have been doing. They have past their false teachings down from one religious leader to the next. You are suppose to follow the teaches of Jesus, not mans. For that he blindfolded many of you. He said he would didn't he?

There is only one real TRUTH always has been and always will BE.

You have to know the truth in order to get to heaven. Jesus said, nobody goes to the father but through him. If you didn't believe in what he said or taught, you will be separated from God forever. Just think of the thousands that have believed in the "Return of Jesus SAGA" that are lost forever. J. Flavis(sp) witnessed the return of Jesus and wrote about it.

Read those so called lost books, you will read how Jesus ascended into hell when he died and freed those souls that heard him in their graves as he walked this earth, they were promised salvation to. Adam was the first person he took to heaven, Jesus took him by the hand and brought him to heaven. Didn't you read how the dead rose from their graves its in one of the new testaments?

Read the Bible as it suppose to be read look at the sentences all around what you read, don't change those words. Babalyon means Babalyon.

Revelation was written in a I'll say a coded, secret way, BECAUSE they were being persecuted and killed.

If Jesus removes your blindness you will then understand Revelations walk away from what man taught you and learn the truth, Ask and you shall receive. Jesus still teaches his people.

Originally posted by Katie


Read those so called lost books, you will read how Jesus ascended into hell when he died and freed those souls that heard him in their graves as he walked this earth, they were promised salvation to. Adam was the first person he took to heaven, Jesus took him by the hand and brought him to heaven. Didn't you read how the dead rose from their graves its in one of the new testaments?

As Luke 3:6 states:

"ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God."

BABYLON: A MYSTERY
WRAPPED IN AN ENIGMA
And what about "Prophetic Babylon?" It is, of course, every bit as magnificent!

Before we set out on our hunt for this great city, however, let's deal with one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any search: the thought that "Prophetic Babylon" has anything at all to do with the ancient city or that the verses which deal with this prophecy (i.e., Revelation 17 and 18; Isaiah chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51) were fulfilled when Cyrus took Babylon in B.C. 541.

As strange as it might seem, there are some who insist that the prophecies concerning "Babylon" (again - Revelation 17 and 18, Isaiah chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51) were fulfilled when the Medo-Persians captured Babylon in 541 B.C. - and that these verses have, therefore, nothing to do with events yet future. But there is too much in these chapters which were not accomplished when Cyrus took the ancient city of Babylon. For example, both the prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah, like those of the Revelation, indicate that Babylon [Prophetic Babylon] is to be destroyed suddenly and catastrophically - "in one short hour," NEVER TO BE INHABITED AGAIN!! But when Cyrus took the city in B.C. 541, he took it so quietly and with such little commotion that some of the inhabitants did not know until the third day that Belshazzar had been slain and the city taken.

Some years later, it revolted against Darius Hystaspis, and in B.C. 478 Xerxes took the city and plundered it. But he did not destroy it. In B.C. 331, Alexander the Great prepared to lay siege to the once again thriving and powerful city, but the citizens threw open the gates and received him with acclamation. During the subsequent wars of his generals, Babylon suffered much and was finally brought under the power of Seleucis. In B.C. 293 Seleucis founded Seleucia in the neighborhood of Babylon, and the rival city gradually drew off a large portion of Babylon's inhabitants so that by A.D. 15, Strabo spoke of the city as being largely deserted.

Nevertheless, there still existed within the city a large Jewish population left over from the "Captivity." Indeed, we find that the Apostle Peter wrote his First Epistle from Babylon in A.D. 60 (I Peter 5:13). About the middle of the Fifth Century A.D., Theodoret spoke of Babylon as being inhabited only by Jews who still had three Jewish schools or "Yeshivas" there. In the last year of the same century, the Talmud was issued from Babylon and accepted as authoritative by Jews throughout the world.

In A.D. 917 Ibu Hankel mentioned Babylon as still being in existence, and by A.D. 1100 it had again grown into a city of some importance. Shortly afterwards, it was enlarged, fortified and renamed "Hillah." In 1898, Hillah contained about 10,000 inhabitants and was surrounded by fertile lands and beautiful groves which stretched along the Euphrates River.

During this entire period (B.C. 541 - to the present) it could never be said that "neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there, neither shall shepherds make their fold there" (Isa. 13:20). Nor could it be said of Babylon - "Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land WHEREIN NO MAN DWELLETH, neither doeth any son of man pass thereby." (Jer. 51:43). Nor could it be said, "... and they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations, but thou shalt be desolate forever, saith the Lord" (Jer. 51:26), for many towns and cities have been built from the ruins of Babylon - Seleucia by the Greeks, Ctesiphone by the Parthians, Al Maiden by the Persians, and Kufa by the Caliphs. Indeed, in Baghdad today (the capital of modern Iraq) Babylonian stamped bricks may be frequently noticed.

But Isaiah is still more specific, for he locates the time when his prophecy will be fulfilled. He calls it the "DAY OF THE LORD" (Isa. 13:9) - that is to say, at the end of the "Great Tribulation." Moreover, he says that when Babylon is destroyed, "The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine" (Isa. 13:19; see also Luke 21:25-27). Surely nothing like this happened when Cyrus took Babylon in B.C. 541.
In the description of the destruction of the city of Babylon given in Revelation 18, we are told that Babylon's destruction will be accomplished in "ONE HOUR" (verse 19). Again - this is certainly not the description of events which surrounded Cyrus's taking of the city. In addition, we are told in the same chapter that she is to be destroyed by fire (Rev. 18:8-9, 18) and this is in exact harmony with the words of Isaiah 13:19 and Jeremiah 50:40. Moreover, in Revelation 16:17-19, we are told that an earthquake will shake the city at the time of its destruction. No such earthquake ever shook the city when Cyrus took it in B.C. 541.

Obviously, then, the Babylon that is described in Isaiah 13 and 14, Jeremiah 50 and 51 and in the Revelation is not the ancient city of Babylon, but some great "latter-day" nation which by means of its enormous military and economic might will establish its ascendancy over the world. Lastly, there are those who insist that the prophecies which deal with Babylon refer to modern-day Iraq. Indeed, prior to the Gulf War, countless numbers of fundamentalist Christians could be found who were predicting doom for America in its confrontation with Iraq over Kuwait. Such thinking, of course, was MORONIC - U.S. forces sliced through Iraq like a knife through butter, revealing in the process more about the real identity of Prophetic Babylon than most American Christians were (are) prepared to admit

This is how the biblical prophets described america.... the strongest,richest superpower that will ever be seen on earth.



She dwells in the midst of many waters - she is protected by the waters [or oceans] which surround her [literally, she is said to dwell "in the heart of the seas" - Pember, Earth's Earliest Ages, pg. 46). Indeed, Antichrist is pictured by Ezekiel as exulting in the strength of his sea-girt nation, and likening himself, in proud reliance upon his inaccessible dwelling, to the God that sitteth above the heavens [Ezekiel 28:1-2; Jeremiah 51:13).
Her People are a mingled people - that is to say, a "melting pot." (Jeremiah 50:37). She evidently has never known the heel of a conqueror and is exceedingly powerful militarily (Revelation 18:4-5 - implied, Jer. 50:23). The nations of the earth are dominated by her (Rev. 18:9); she is an arrogant, proud, and haughty nation (Jer. 50:23).
She is the greatest economic power in the world, a power so great that the nations of the earth are able to grow rich if they can trade with her or are allowed access to her domestic markets in which to sell their goods (Revelation 18:3, 11, 12).
By means of her economic power [covetousness] she controls the world; gluttony reigns as the people (or the elites which control this nation) live sumptuously [but want more - their appetite never satisfied], while many in the world starve (Jeremiah 50:38; 51:12-13).
Her people do not know the bitterness of poverty and live in great wealth (Revelation 18:7).
The nations of the earth must trade with her by sea (a confirmation of #1 above - Revelation 18:19, 23). Babylon is described as a vast latter-day nation, not as a single city (Jeremiah 50:51). In fact, she is a nation of MANY influential cities (Rev. 18:18). In this connection, it is necessary to note that we are here talking not of mere city to be rebuilt on the site of Ancient Babylon; such a concept is in conflict with Isa. 13:19-22 - please see the note on page 1347 of the Scofield Reference Bible.
Babylon is described as a nation which at one time was a God-fearing nation [a "Golden Cup" in the Lord's hand], but a nation which left God and fell into degradation and then which intoxicated the rest of the world with her iniquity. (Jer. 51:7).
Finally, she is a nation that "has reached for the stars [heavens]" - i.e., space (Jer. 51:53).

[edit on 3-10-2007 by Ethiopia21]

some intresting fatcs.....


The United States alone produces almost one-fourth (22%) of the world's total gross product. But the importance of the U.S. economy to the world cannot be measured simply by means of comparing its gross national product with that of the other nations; its importance - indeed, its centrality - lies in the fact that it is the engine that makes the other economies of the world work, and this is especially true of the economies of Western Europe and Japan [including the nations of the so-called "Pacific Basin" - Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, etc.]; the American economy has become the "market place" for the products of these economies. Without access to the American "market," the economies of Western Europe and Japan would collapse overnight.

reply to post by Ethiopia21


PARADISE

RESTORED

A Biblical Theology of Dominion

David Chilton

Dominion Press

Tyler, Texas

© 1st 1985 & 6th 1999

THE GREAT HARLOT

(Revelation 17-19)

The Book of Revelation presents us with two great cities, antithetical to each other: Babylon and New Jerusalem. As we will see in a later chapter, the New Jerusalem is Paradise Consummated, the community of the saints, the City of God. The other city, which is continually contrasted to the New Jerusalem, is the old Jerusalem, which has become unfaithful to God. If we knew our Bibles better this would be immediately apparent, for most of the language describing "Babylon" is taken from other Biblical descriptions of Jerusalem. Let's consider some of the information John provides about this evil city.

First, we are told that she is "the great Harlot…with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication" (Rev. 17:1-2). This striking picture of a Harlot-city fornicating with the nations comes from Isaiah 57 and Ezekiel 16 and 23, where Jerusalem is represented as God's Bride who has turned to harlotry. The people of Jerusalem had abandoned the true faith and had turned to heathen gods and ungodly nations for help, rather than trusting in God to be their protector and deliverer. Using language so explicit that most modern pastors won't preach from these chapters, Ezekiel condemns Jerusalem as a degraded, wanton whore: "You spread your legs to every passerby to multiply your harlotry" (Ezek. 16:25). John saw the harlot sitting in a wilderness, a symbol we have already considered at length as an image of the Curse; moreover, the specific picture of Jerusalem as a harlot in a wilderness is used in Jeremiah 2-3 and Hosea 2.

The Harlot in the wilderness, John says, is seated on the Beast (Rev. 17:3), representing her dependence upon the Roman Empire for her national existence and power; from the testimony of the New Testament there is no doubt that Jerusalem was politically and religiously "in bed" with the pagan Empire, cooperating with Rome in the crucifixion of Christ and the murderous persecution of Christians. Developing this aspect of the symbolism further, an angel tells John more about the Beast: "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while" (Rev. 17:9-10). The "seven mountains" again identify the Beast as Rome, famous for its "seven hills"; but these also correspond to the line of the Caesars. Five have fallen: the first five Caesars were Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius. One now is: Nero, the sixth Caesar, was on the throne as John was writing the Revelation. The other…must remain a little while: Galba, the seventh Caesar, reigned for seven months.

The symbolic name given to the Harlot was Babylon the Great (Rev. 17:5), a reminder of the Old Testament city which was the epitome of rebellion against God (cf. Gen. 11:1-9; Jer. 50-51). This new and greater Babylon, the "Mother of harlots," is "drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus" (Rev. 17:6). Later John tells us that "in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth" (Rev. 18:24). That statement has a familiar ring, doesn't it? It comes from a passage we have considered several times before: Jesus' condemnation of Jerusalem.

Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall all the righteous blood shed on the earth…. Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! (Matt. 23:34-37).

Historically, it was Jerusalem which had always been the great harlot, continually falling into apostasy and persecuting the prophets (Acts 7:51-52); Jerusalem was the place where the prophets were killed (Luke 13:33). We cannot grasp the message of Revelation if we fail to recognize its central character as a covenantal, legal document; like the writings of Amos and other Old Testament prophets, it represents a covenant lawsuit, charging Jerusalem with breaches of the covenant and declaring her judgment.

John records that the "ten kings," the rulers subject to the Empire, join with the Beast against Christ: "These have one purpose and they give their power and authority to the Beast. These will wage war against the Lamb"—and what is to be the outcome? "And the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful" (Rev. 17:13-14). John assures the Church that in their terrible and terrifying conflict with the awesome might of imperial Rome, the victory of Christianity is guaranteed.

I think that New York fits the description of Revelation 17 and 18. Rome was always thought of as the "City Of 7 Hills", but the World Trade could also be thought of as "7 Hills" or 7 Tall Buildings. I would consider "The city that rules over the Kings of the world" as New York (United Nations), the music (Broadway), the great city of commerce, definitely New York (Wall Street), and when the WTC buildings fell, the people on ships that were watching were covered in dust. So many comments from Revelation 17 and 18 are more like New York than any other city. Also, as far as the Roman or Greek Empires revived, many Americans are descendants of the Kings Of Europe. I am a descendant of Charlemagne, and many of you probably are, also. If I am in error, I apologize and I will retract, but right now, it does seem more like New York to me.