reply to post by madnessinmysoul
madnessinmysoul " . . there was actually an argument
over whether or not Jesus was divine, There were 4 camps
Jesus is wholly human
Jesus is wholly divine
Jesus is partially human and partially divine
Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine
The decision over the nature of Jesus was decided by committee
At the risk of repeating myself, here is my “take” on Jesus. But first a Q. Is the Aramaic word from which we ultimately derive the English
“Jesus” not also the same word we derive “Joshua” from?
Judea. After the failed Simon bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135 BCE, Emperor Hadrian renamed the land Syria Palaestina after the Philistines and expanded
the land far beyond its earlier extent whish was just around Jerusalem. The former area was probably about 750-1,000 square miles and the latter area
was probably 8,000-10,000 square miles. My estimate. [Yet one more dispute for 2007 to resolve.] Herod’s Temple had been destroyed by Vespasian's
son Titus Flavius, who led the siege and final assault on Jerusalem after Vespasian had become Emperor.
I do not believe there ever was a Solomon’s Temple. Like the Ark of the Covenant, it was legendary or mythical. I believe Herod’s Temple was the
FIRST and ONLY Jewish temple ever in Jerusalem. Even Herod’s Temple was largely made of wood as it is recorded the Romans “burned” it.
The West Wall or Wailing Wall represents early efforts to reinforce the mound of earth we now call the Temple Mount. Without reinforcement, it was
feared the regions frequent earthquakes would cause the mound to subside. It is also said by researchers that the West Wall has undergone extensive
re-working at least 3 times between Herod and today. It is not a provable proposition to say the West Wall is the LAST remnant of Solomon’s Temple,
except when speaking allegorically.
From ca. 320 CE when Emperor Constantine ordered the assembly or “construction” of the canon - the Holy Bible - until the 19th century when the
German theologians began the School of Historical Criticism, the Holy Bible was taken to be both literal and true albeit no 2 people could read it and
reach the same conclusion on what it actually said or meant. It suited everyone’s purposes however to endow the canon as inerrant, perfect and
complete, even though it was impossible to agree on its contents. This imbued those on top with divine power.
There have undoubtedly been many alterations to the earliest texts or writings in order to reach this evolving outcome that passes for Christianity
today. Comes first to my mind the colloquy between Jesus and Peter. Even Constantine’s assemblage of carefully selected bishops probably had few if
any original documents. It is clear to me that people in the First Century had no concept of a highly centralized hierarchical institution labeled as
a Church. All of that came much later.
Emperor Constantine. I have labeled him as the true Founder of Christianity as we know it. And no, I do not accept that Constantine was
“converted” to Christianity as in St. Paul or on a bridge. Those are stories for children. I concur with those who say Constantine ADDED
Christianity to his repertoire of religions in order to better UNITE his empire. He cared not a whit about any religion. He was an emperor who had
killed many men to get to his post. As today, religion is just one more tool of ruler-ship.
Back to Jesus. Nowhere in any of the Holy Books is Jesus called “Jesus of Bethlehem” such as was the custom of that era to identify a person by
his place of birth. This was after all, before the time of surnames, which did not come along until post Middle Ages. Although there are many who say
Jesus was not a real person, that he was a compilation of the hopes and aspirations of his people who endowed him with the attributes of a god-like
man, and who ultimately met his fate while endeavoring to bring his people out of captivity! Moses reborn. Hence Matthew’s account of the haj to
Egypt, still the primo non-Roman place in the neighborhood.
Jesus followed John the Baptist as evidenced by His pro forma baptism. The words and dove were added later to the text. Both men wanted Rome OUT of
Judea and conservative Judaism IN. I’m thinking Jesus was more akin to the Zealots than either a Pharisee (St. Paul) or a Sadducee. One of Jesus’
first 12 followers was called Simon the Zealot in Luke 6:15 and Acts 1:13. Zealots were First Century Jewish terrorists famous for murdering Jewish
collaborators. (Acts is often said to be the second half of the Gospel of Luke. The same author; the complete manuscript may have been divided when
a local church divided). Personal aside: I would more likely have been a Sadducee in the First Century if not a Zealot. I, like Greek Epicureans,
Sadducees reject the existence of an afterlife, thus denying the Pharisaic doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead. End.
After recruiting a small cadre of devoted or loyal followers (today’s special ops), Jesus then went out to raise an army. They traveled around the
countryside speaking to the locals. Now for me it is impossible to believe that Jesus was passively teaching “Love you Neighbor and Obey God.”
Note: Jesus is recorded to have said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew
Au contraire! Jesus was seeking out recruits to overthrown the Roman occupiers of Judea in general and Jerusalem in particular. Whether or not Jesus
was worried over the extra-religious practices in the Temple (maybe added to texts later?), He knew well that Jews everywhere considered the Temple to
be the focal point of their theocratic society. The man who freed the Temple from uncircumcised Gentiles occupation is the same man all the Jews
looked forward to, the true messiah. The same man who can restore the ancient faith of Moses, Abraham and Isaac.
From the Holy Writ we learn that 3,000 or 5,000 men were gathered in the desert near Jerusalem. I for one give little or no credence to the numbers
recited in the Holy Bible. Ancient Hebrew does not include numbers. They did have words to express numbers, but those are hard to translate.
Sometimes a word may mean only “a lot of people” but the translator feels obliged to assign it a definite value. I assure you the enumerations in
Exodus and Numbers are not genuine.
The numbers we use today came from the 16th and 17th centuries. IMO is it best practice to divide most biblical numbers by 100 or by 1000. Only then
can the story be made to fit the geography and sharp limitations on the resources required to support large numbers of people. Primarily scarce water
but also disposal of human waste is an issue that cannot be ignored. For example, we know a human has 4 liters of water in his body. When that level
falls to 2 liters, he dies. If you exert yourself, you will need even more water. Water does not renew itself. water weighs 8.33 pounds per gallon,
about 4 liters. It would take 1 man for each 8-10 men to carry water every day which allows none for cooking, washing or waste disposal.
People did not go wandering about the desert in the First Century. In a subsistence society, if you are not a producer and producing, then you are a
consumer and consuming. Someone will have to give you (or sell) a liter of water, a half kilo of dried fruit and vegetables and a tea-cup of olive
oil. Every day. To furnish this daily ration would have required a lot of money from the Treasury overseen by Judas Iscariot.
Jesus’ plan must have been like this: On a day certain - the day before Passover - the volunteers would have walked to a central meeting place just
out of sight of Jerusalem. On foot in hilly Judea a man could make 1-2 miles an hour, 6-10 miles in a day. He would arrive at the rendevous too tired
to fight that day. He would need one or preferably 2 days to rest and to get ready for some organized assault on Jerusalem, lest it be just a large
crowd or mob. Unarmed, that is, armed only with sticks and stones, Jesus’ followers must have surprise on their side or face certain death at the
hands of the Roman soldiers posted in Jerusalem. Untrained as they were, it was likely any who did follow Jesus into Jerusalem broke and ran at the
first sight of well armed, highly disciplined Roman soldiers.
Jesus had planned that he and his 12 close followers - later called apostles - would overcome the Temple Police mainly by surprise, and once capturing
the Temple, then throw open the city gates to the 3,000 men waiting just outside. Then the general populace, seeing the influx of so many men, would
join in the action thereby subduing the superior armed but vastly outnumbered Romans. But alas, the Jesus Plan failed at the Git-Go. The Temple Police
may have had good intel about the Jesus Plan. In any case, when Jesus attempted his Temple takeover, it failed. He along with some others, fled to
their fall-back position, now known as the Garden of Gethsemane. The Romans, alerted by the Temple Police, soon tracked the Jesus Group to the Garden
and captured them after a brief tussle. And as they say, “The rest is history.”
[edit on 10/27/2007 by donwhite]