Question on current nuclear weapons

Hello.

I'm really not versed in weaponry and am extremely ignorant as it concerns nuclear weapons and power so I am sorry if the question seems ridiculous to the weaponry buffs in this forum (I sometimes lurk around the place only to be completely confused by impressive sentences in the lines of "the FGH3000 uses BTT capabilities which everyone knows surpasses the TTF7's capability of confusing InTrueFiction") but I was curious about this:

When I think nuclear I usually think Hiroshima and those famous black and white pictures of mushrooms in the sky come to mind. Videos from the Cold War time dysplaying similar mushrooms and target practice houses and vehicles being anihalated. These weapons should by now (decades later) be relics, no?

Now in our current days the word nuclear keeps popping up and out of curiosity I was wondering - what is the actual devastation that should be expected from a 2007 big one? How big an area would be destroyed? What kind of aftermath in terms of radioactivity?

Also, (though again I don't know if this is a ridiculous question to ask) nuclear weapons have been being produced for a while now though not used, right? If they are replaced by newer versions what happens to the older ones? As in... are there processes of desmantling and "trash them" (so to speak) without the materials posing a threat anymore?

Most newer weapons openly discussed employ a Thermo-nuclear reaction, in which a small amount of fusion takes place. So, instead of splitting by fission the nuclear material, you also have H atoms being fused into other various elements. This creates a great deal of heat, which is destructive in its own right, and also aids in the fission of the U.

Newer breed weapons employ a tactic to involve flux focusing, where the reaction achieves a much greater productive rate. Which, can be controlled to even dissipate the fall-out, and lend to just achieving the main punch, and then not dealing with radio active clean up.

The class that is most feared these days are what are termed "suit case" bombs. Where, destructive power is had by a single individual. And, these levels are quite significant. There's little control, as this is what was wanted...

With the newer class giving a higher yield, the original "Big Boy" would easily have wiped out the whole of the Pacific Rim, and a good deal of Central Europe.

This is what is faced these days...

I asked this same question to a friend of mine not long ago. Wondering what devastastion this would have on the US. My answer to this question was that more then likely if we were hit with a nuclear bomb, saying it would be dropped on the west coast. Its the actual radiation that would spread through the air that would cause the destruction thousands and thousands of miles away. Of course it would wipe out the place it was dropped, but the radiation from the bomb would eventually spread through the air and reach many other states causing the radiation poisoning in our people.
Radiation poisoning depending on the amount that is received would cause extensive blistering of the skin, nausea, vomiting, massive diarrhea, intestinal bleeding and bleeding from mouth, nose, ears. eventually causing death. Now all this depends on how far you are from the actual site the bomb was dropped. I'm certainly no expect on this and I'm sure there will be others that can give more extensive info on this subject. Hope this helps a bit.

The destruction would be the same. They havnt made any updated weapons so I dont think it wold be much different. And for the person who said a nuclear exchange would spread radiation to the whole us....doubtful. Not only is this disproven by the fact that they did tons of nuke tests in the desert and most states never had any kind of side effects, but the radiation would be filtered out by the mountains. Just my .02 units of United States legal tender.

The area of total devastation from the 12 kiloton Hiroshima detonation was roughly around 1.5km. The thermal heat wave killed most people within 1km and still caused severe burns to people several km out.

The 'Tsar Bomba' developed and tested by the Russians in 1961 was a 'little' bit more powerful and was intended to be a 100 megaton device, but last minute changes meant the detonated weapon was actually 50 megaton.

This page describes the weapon in detail. Here are a few snippets:

A 100 Mt weapon can level urban areas in a zone 60 km wide, cause heavy damage in a zone 100 km across, and cause 3rd degree burns in a region 170 km across (only a bit smaller than the width of West Germany). Such a weapon can only be used as a means of destroying an entire urban region - a major urban complex including suburbs and even neighboring cities. This scale of destruction is much larger than any discrete urban area in Western Europe

Here are extracts regarding the actual results of the 50 megaton detonation:

The effects were spectacular. Despite the very substantial burst height of 4,000 m (13,000 ft) the vast fireball reached down to the Earth and engulfed the ground below it, and swelled upward to nearly the height of the release plane. The blast pressure below the burst point was 300 PSI, six times the peak pressure experienced at Hiroshima. The flash of light was so bright that it was visible at a distance of 1,000 kilometers, despite cloudy skies. One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 km

The area of effectively complete destruction extended to 25 km, and ordinary houses would be subjected to severe damage out to 35 km. The destruction and damage of buildings at much greater ranges than this which occurred was due to the effects of atmospheric focusing, an unpredictable but unavoidable phenomenon with very large atmospheric explosions that is capable of generating localized regions of destructive blast pressure at great distances (even exceeding 1000 km).

Please have a read of:

www.johnstonsarchive.net...

the person that wrote that is a Professor and really does know his stuff.


for radiation exposure - the 7-10 rule applies here

The decay of fallout radiation is described by the seven-ten rule. This rule states that for every sevenfold increase in time after detonation, there is a tenfold decrease in the radiation rate. For example, if the radiation intensity one hour after detonation is 1,000 Roentgens (measure of radiation exposure) per hour, after seven hours it will have decreased to one/tenth as much. In seven more time periods (7 X 7 = 49 hours or two days) the radiation level will be 1/100 of the original rate. After about a two-week period, the level of radiation will be at 1/1000 of the level at one hour after detonation.

dma.mt.gov...


in english

2 weeks after detonation the dosage would be 1 rem per hour - the `safe` annual dosage as governe by the US government is 5 REM (Roentgen equivalent man) but this *can be* multiplied by the persons age.

we all live with some form of background radiation - in denver its 400 REm (national average is 300) whilst a town in Iran has 16,000REM background!

web.mit.edu...

I believe that there is either a misquote or misprint here in some of the threads. I believe the term generating concern in Magicpapyri's post is "contamination" not radiation being spread. The contaminated fall out particles which ...while having a radiation level to them is not the ultra high radiation levels in the initial setting of of the device.

Some additional background history for which our governnent here in the USA does not want the general public to know or dwell upon..there was a case of a significant amount of fallout spreading across the USA some years ago. " This is known in the trades but not ordinarily spoken about to the general public. I know about is because of the type of work in which I am involved and the stores told by the olde timers here.

Some years back when the third shift or midnight shift was coming to work...those who worked in the radiologically controlled areas entered thier work buildings. Now in these particular buildings there are radiation monitors along with air samplers. When this shift began to filter into these buildings with this equipment running the monitor alarms began to go off. The radiation monitoring technicians began to go into thier radioactive spill drills. What they eventually discovered is that the contamination setting off the alarms was on the feet of the guys coming in to work ...not the guys already there. They then went outside to different areas of this complex and found it on the ground and various places around the facilitys. ( this is a shipyard building nuclear powered ships)
From here people were quietly dispached about this and other citys only to find this contamination on the picnic tables at the local parks..and numerous places about the city.
What they realized is that it was falling out of the sky. The Chinese had set off a above ground nuclear test and the contamination was lifted into the jet stream and across the globe some of it to fall down all across this country...and some in this location.

My point here is that this has happened before in the USA and it is not something the government is wont to let the general public know...so as to cause panic.

You also need to know and understand that with better targeting equipment available today ...most nuclear weapons have been downsized. The huge warheads of the past were because the delivery systems were not that accurate. The lack of acccuracy was compensated for by bigger warheads. This is not the case today. Today warheads can be made smaller and in the case of ICBM type missles they carry multiple warheads all capable of being delivered independently from the launch missle. Instead of landing within five to ten miles they can be delivered to within 500 feet or closer. This is a huge quantum leap in accuracy.
Some weapons are adapted with a feature called "dial a yeild" where the size of the bang can be varied from a particular quantity of nuclear material.
None the less...the type of targeting equipment has negated the need for huge big bang warheads of the past.

Another thing for many of you to consider...is what is the natural background radiation levels of the area in which you live. Some of you would be surprised to know what it is. It actually varys day to day but some areas of the country and globe it is higher than others.

Hope this helps.
Orangetom

en.wikipedia.org...

more about the tsar bomba - it was enormous and was felt around the world - it was also the cleanest (in comparion to other nukes) bomb ever tested - because of the lead tempered third stage (replacing the uranium).

lots of videos on youtube about it as well.


as orangetom has said , nowadays , with CEP being a few meters (cep = Circular Error Probable or how far away the error it will miss a direct in the pickle barrel hit) you don`t need the multi megaton warheads (bombs) anymore - why use 3x the resourses on a 9 megaton warhead , when you can make 3, 500kilton warheads to hit 3 targets


something else about radiation - the age of the material used will also effect how much radiation there will be - 30 year old material will have allready spent 30 years degrading so will have less (comparatively) than material from yesterday

Thank you for the answers.

They answered a lot of my doubts and also opened up a path for my own research.

It is interesting (and also logical) to see that instead of developing along the lines of a more widespread and random destruction these weapons are instead evolving towards accuracy that downsizes the area of devastation.

In that sense however I have another ignorant question - with a purpose of eliminating a specific target accurately what is the point of going nuclear instead of using other more conventional and proven weapons and explosives?

In other words, what is the advantage that nuclear weapons have in comparison to other explosives aside from outspread destruction?

Originally posted by InTrueFiction
Now in our current days the word nuclear keeps popping up and out of curiosity I was wondering - what is the actual devastation that should be expected from a 2007 big one? How big an area would be destroyed? What kind of aftermath in terms of radioactivity?

Oddly enough, we don't design for really huge yields anymore. Most of the deployed weapons are sub megaton for each individual warhead. In Europe, there used to be all sorts of different types and yields of weapons but around 1989 they withdrew all the Pershings, back pack munitions etc and the only thing I know of is that AF gravity bomb with dial-a-yield, it's in the 150kt range. I believe that's the only weapon in Europe that we have.

The Navy has bigger ones, but they're still in the 475kT range for each warhead. That's plenty big enough. The reason is that you reach a point of diminishing returns over 250-500kT depending on the target configuration. A 10MT bomb is inefficient when you look at the destruction vs the cost and the impact on the environment. You only need to wipe out the city. Wiping out the suburbs and surrounding counties doesn't really add anything.

In fact, a lot of the current work is going more towards a sort of super-SMAW, like that little RPG nuke they had on "Starship Troopers" - really clean little fission bombs in the sub-ton range.

Also, (though again I don't know if this is a ridiculous question to ask) nuclear weapons have been being produced for a while now though not used, right? If they are replaced by newer versions what happens to the older ones? As in... are there processes of desmantling and "trash them" (so to speak) without the materials posing a threat anymore?

Not a ridiculous question. They do several things with them. The big DOE labs (LANL, Sandia etc - I have also seen some on Redstone for some reason) will pull weapons for disassembly and inspection, sort of a "post-mortem" or autopsy, if you will, to see how the weapon was affected by storage, transport, the environment and time. They find things they weren't expecting, for example there was a pretty common weapon that was known for having a lot of corrosion between parts of the casing. You just can't get them apart after a while.

That tells you a few things, one, when these are pulled from the field and decommissioned you need to devise a disassembly procedure to deal with it, and two, you want to document that so that the next time they design one they don' t do that again.

When they're pulled from the field, they are sent to DOE facilities to be disassembled. This happens at Pantex in Amarillo. Pantex takes them apart, sends the gaseous tritium in the boost system and a couple of other parts to the Savannah River plant for recycling, stores the pits and classified bits they save, burns the explosives and mangles up the other classified bits they don't save.

The plutonium in the pits can be recycled into more weapons (especially if it's superalloy) but I think future trends will be to make it into MOX and use it in reactors.

sheer destructive capability - 4, 900KT warheds have more `bang` than all the explosions in WW2.

and , one of the primary roles of Russian nuclear weapons is to eliminate American launch capability - the minuteman fields , so since you cannot hit dead centre from 6,000 miles away (well not all the time) , the explosion needs to be able to `hard kill` the target wherever you land - IIRC the CEP of an SS-17 is 350m and a 900KT warhead will hard kill a silo landing anywhere within 350m of it.

same with a city - 1 x 900KT nuclear weapon (actually a 500kt will do) will kill a city landing within the limit - yes buildings will be standing at sufficient distance from ground zero - but the whole place , well , would take more than 1 atmosphere burst (did you read that johnson archive link?) the altitude bursts are designed to flatten buildings - the ground bursts are really for more buried targets - although russian kit generally hits the ground to go `bang`.


there is much talk of nuclear `bunker busters` - weapons which fall from high altitude - and penetrate `deeply` (subjectively) before deonating - well In My Opinion - its total crap. these free fall bombs (hitting at terminal velocity) only bury themselves 10 maybe 20 meters - which is nothing for a detonation - even tests buried at 300 meters have still breached ground level.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
What they realized is that it was falling out of the sky. The Chinese had set off a above ground nuclear test and the contamination was lifted into the jet stream and across the globe some of it to fall down all across this country...and some in this location.

Do you know the rest of that story? There's a reason it was in the jet stream.

I've heard it but I'm not sure if it's public knowledge.

First off I want to agree with Tom Bedlam and tell InTrueFiction that thier questions are not dumb, stupid, or rediculous. I would rather learn certain ideas or concepts here than learn them in error from movies or television programs. Not that one cannot learn incorrectly here...but there are more folks here who have been around the block so to speak than on movies and tv.


Tom,

What I gather about above ground testing..is that the explosion debris...gases etc of this type of material tends to get up to into the upper atmosphere and be conducted to distances via the jet streams.

While I am not that familiar with the different types ..I am guessing that this would be indicative of the type or construction lay out of the design. A fingerprint so to speak. For example ..certain types of construction are more dirty than others to those versed in the trade.

I dont believe this is public knowlege.

By the way on a related topic...years ago..when a teen...our family stopped in Hawaii to see relatives on our journey to Japan for a three year assignment. Our relatives related to us the story of what they saw from the Island of Hawaii when our governemnt set off one of the last of the above ground nuclear tests on Johnson or Christmas island. I remember them telling me it was getting dark and the sun was almost down. Suddenly the sky to the south and west lit up for some time....way off on the horizon. It was obvious to me even at that young age that this was very unusual.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Orangetom:

I heard the Chinese story way back when it first happened and it's been a while so I may be misremembering the details.

The detonation caused a big stir, they knew one had gone off and where but didn't understand the point of it - it was an air burst not far from a base, and caused some extensive damage and fatalities.

The Chinese gubmint investigated the thing, and it turned out that they were transporting the weapon in a plane on a mission to hot-practice an air drop onto the test range in preparation for dropping it for real as part of the above ground test later. The weapon was wired wrong - there was a mistake in the manual. The crew activated the airburst fusing instead of turning it off. So when they climbed to the trigger altitude (IIRC the story, about 5000 feet) it went off in the plane.

They didn't want to own up to it but "somehow" a copy of the report got into the US's hands.

There was a good bit of interest in examining the evidence that was collected by air sampling, they claimed to be able to identify the plane type and number of occupants from the "people carbon" and other trace elements, although I find it hard to believe.

edit: actually, as I recall it, in order for the fuse to trigger, it had to climb past the altitude, then they had to descend through it again to toggle it off, that's why it didn't go off over the base

[edit on 2-9-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by orangetom1999






My point here is that this has happened before in the USA and it is not something the government is wont to let the general public know...so as to cause panic.

You also need to know and understand that with better targeting equipment available today ...most nuclear weapons have been downsized. The huge warheads of the past were because the delivery systems were not that accurate. The lack of acccuracy was compensated for by bigger warheads. This is not the case today. Today warheads can be made smaller and in the case of ICBM type missles they carry multiple warheads all capable of being delivered independently from the launch missle. Instead of landing within five to ten miles they can be delivered to within 500 feet or closer. This is a huge quantum leap in accuracy.
Some weapons are adapted with a feature called "dial a yeild" where the size of the bang can be varied from a particular quantity of nuclear material.
None the less...the type of targeting equipment has negated the need for huge big bang warheads of the past.

Another thing for many of you to consider...is what is the natural background radiation levels of the area in which you live. Some of you would be surprised to know what it is. It actually varys day to day but some areas of the country and globe it is higher than others.

Hope this helps.
Orangetom

What are you talking about please give your sources, there is nothing on the NET that EVER said Nukes at one point fell 5-10 Miles from thier targets, at that range the targets would not get destroyed, the average Nuke in Russia's arsenal is 500kt and 1-25 Megatonnes the SS-18 Mod-1 is 25 Megatonnes, and I'm not sure about U.S. but I know thier average Nuke is around 300kt also which is still more than 20x bigger than WW2 A-Bomb, where are you getting these WRONG numbers

[edit on 3-9-2007 by YASKY]

[edit on 3-9-2007 by YASKY]

[edit on 3-9-2007 by YASKY]

[edit on 3-9-2007 by YASKY]

[edit on 3-9-2007 by YASKY]

Originally posted by InTrueFiction
Thank you for the answers.

They answered a lot of my doubts and also opened up a path for my own research.

It is interesting (and also logical) to see that instead of developing along the lines of a more widespread and random destruction these weapons are instead evolving towards accuracy that downsizes the area of devastation.

In that sense however I have another ignorant question - with a purpose of eliminating a specific target accurately what is the point of going nuclear instead of using other more conventional and proven weapons and explosives?

In other words, what is the advantage that nuclear weapons have in comparison to other explosives aside from outspread destruction?

My freind do the research on Wikiopedia.org you'll see alot of what your thinking isn't right, for example the SS-18 Mode 3 has a 250 meter CEP (BUT IT'S A 500kt WARHEAD!!!) it doesn't matter if it lands 760+ feet away from the target, 500kt blast will go out to 3-5 miles in a circular blast,

The five-to-ten statement was most likely an exaggeration, as he didn't feel the time to look up the actual numbers.

Much as one of us would say, 'Yeah, from here to the moon is like, a billion miles.'

For the general point to be made.

Tom,
I had not heard that version of the story..it is funny in a way but also very tragic. I can imagine such happening due to the simple human errors I have seen numerous times in the trade for which I am occupied.

Thanks for this version.

Yaski,

Bryant Chucking Grinder Company, Springfield, Vermont. This is the company which first produced the equipment to handle the very small precision ball bearings necessary for precise miniature Inertial Navigation Platforms used in MIRV type delivery platforms. The problem has always been how to make these platforms smaller and improve accuracy. This requires combining the measuring unit with a accurate computing system.

Prior to the delivery of these machines to the soviets they did not have accurate delivery systems of the kind we had. This narrative can be found in...

National Suicide
Military Aid to the Soviet Union By Anthony Sutton.

The first batch of some 35 of these grinding machines was approved for sale to the Soviets as non strategic equipment. Approved by both the US State Department and the US Department of Commerce.
Combine this with non strategic computing systems and you get the whole system.

This is the reason for the Soviets outnumbering us in numbers of warheads is that it was to be a onslaught...numerous warheads on the same targets. They intended to saturate thier selected targets. They had to.

This is also information our own government was not wont to let the
American public know. Not just in military goods but other enterprises as well.

For the early beginings of the Soviet Nuclear program ...during WW2 you might try .

From Major Jordan's Diary by George Racey Jordan.

In Major Jordans book it narrates how the Soviets got some of thier early nuclear material during the war from the United States and at a time when we only had a small amount of this material and the tools to work it.

IN the Shipyard where I work it is known by Engineers in thier communications pipeline with other Engineers ...that when the Russians were invited by the nation of Egypt to leave their country...western Engineers were invited in to help troubleshoot the problems with the Soviet built Aswan High Dam.
What was found astonished our engineers and designers troubleshooting this project. In key areas there was insufficient uniformity and standardization. IT was sort of ad hock...left overs..band aid,patch me up.
They could not believe that the Russians built this dam for the Egyptians.
I got this from the engineers on the submarine under construction on which I was working at the time. I did not get this from Wikipedia.

These same Engineers also told me that during the Gemini program where US and Soviet astronauts did a hook up in outerspace and the PR photos showed the famous first handshake across the docking tunnels... our guys got to go across to the Soviet spacecraft and vice versa. Our guys were shocked that these guys went up in that space craft. Dumbfounded.
This too is not in Wikipedia. Nor any NASA statements released to the public. That I know of none of this informations of which I am speaking is found in Janes among all thier data.

In case you missed it...I am also saying someone in our own government is having a good time at our expence giving to much credibility to the Soviets. Way to much. Our governments investment is in our ignorance. Still is today. Nothing has changed here.

I also know that this lack of a good Inertial Measuring Unit or INS system is why the Soviets could never make a soft moon landing. They did not have the precision accelerometer technology to control thier rocket burn when landing. They either burned to long and hard and ran out of fuel or didnt burn sufficient to prevent slamming into the surface. Either way they wound up impacting the surface.

This is why they needed big warheads in the early days and for much longer than us.

If the Soviets have good Inertial Measuring Platform tech today...I know from whence it came. Dont look for this information in Wikipedia or other sources..Janes et al...it will be covered up.

Technology wise these systems are even more sophisticated in todays state of the art than was the case in the olde days.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 3-9-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 3-9-2007 by orangetom1999]

if , you are refering to era before WW2 and WW2 ,yes, SU industry was totally based on tech transfer from the West ,

but orangeatom , many of your claims sound like typical russophobia , which is prevalent on this forum ..


neither are many of your claims convincing ,yes i am aware of major jordan's diary and did you know that kurchatov was the first one to say that kg of u-235 can generate 20 kt of energy

-------------
Igor Kurchatov and his apprentice Georgy Flyorov discovered the basic ideas of the uranium chain reaction and the nuclear reactor concept in the 1930's. In 1942 Kurchatov declared: "At breaking up of kernels in a kilogram of uranium, the energy released must be equal to the explosion of 20,000 tons of trotyl." This announcement was practically verified during the atomic bombing of Hiroshima

en.wikipedia.org...
------------------------
so like did usa ripoff concept of kurchatov ????? no
soviet a-bomb proj was low priortiy till info came that usa has tested it

looking at sherman tanks and t-34 the difference can be seen , looking at dynamic cumaltive reactive armour like k-5 , which superior protection and reduction of mass of tank,m-48/m-60 tank design was influenced by IS-3 , according to Roger ford , who has written a book on tanks of ww2 and cold war

russia had a large number of firsts particularly in space ... the first space station salyut was russian , pulsed plasma thrusters , ion thrusters ,powerful space based nuclear fission reactors like topaz , tokomak (developed by sakharov and today being completed at ITER,france)


From ramjet technology copied from Sam 6's to advanced orthopaedic surgery copied from 1950's era Soviet Illizarov surgery (not used in the advanced West until the 1980s), the consensus view of Russia stealing Western technology is turned on its head. ramjet was first successfully tested in russia in 1933
------
In the Soviet Union, the GIRD-08 ramjet engine was built by Yuri Pobedonostsev and test fired in 1933. In France the works of René Leduc were notable, as was that of William Avery in the United States. Leduc's Model 010 was the first-ever ramjet-powered aircraft to fly, in 1949.
en.wikipedia.org...
----

soviets had superior mathematicans and scientists in chemistry and physics to make algorithms and superior processes(to compensate for slowier processors) that have enabled many weapons to be better , ....


soviet nuclear enrichment processes were superior(though in 1960's they were lacking in comparsion to west ),plasma and directed energy research and civil defence,reactive armor , industrial grade diamond-making for aerospace and miltary, titanium industry , these were the undisputed zones of soviet superiority


but in terms of electronics(consumer,industrial,military ) and communications (fiber optic cables) supercomputers/PC/mainframes ,machine tools,
west,usa and japan are superior

and yes, it is known that russia has several times purchased machine tools from the west , most strategic was machine tools purchased from toshiba to reduce cavitation created by scimitair propeller, whcih enabled creation of akula and sierra which were more silent than LA subs,




----
but if , you are refering to era before WW2 and WW2 ,yes, SU industry was totally based on tech transfer from the West ,



[edit on 4-9-2007 by manson_322]

Manson322,

No I am not refering to the era before WW2. I am refering to a time both during and after WW2. This should be obvoius by my refering to the Aswan High Dam. Also Anthony Suttons books were written after WW2.

I too am also aware of the T34 Tank. This is the one up to date product the Russians turned out during the war.

OH..by the way..this statement of yours..

and yes, it is known that russia has several times purchased machine tools from the west , most strategic was machine tools purchased from toshiba to reduce cavitation created by scimitair propeller, whcih enabled creation of akula and sierra which were more silent than LA subs,

I should tell you that I am in the submarine and aircraft carrier buisness. I know what is in the 637 class, LA Class and also the Virginia Class boats.
Also what is in the Nimitz class aircraft carriers including the nuclear side of all these boats and ships. I do not give Wikipedia or Janes much credit in what they release to the public. It is just for public consumption. In like manner to our public education system here. While the propellor or wheel is important no doubt...it takes much more to make a boat quiet. Much much more.


If you read carefully I do not have Russophobia. If you reread I am just as disappointed in my own Government for deceiving us on the nature of the Soviet Union and other things going on even today.

As to space...the so called Space Race is a phoney too. By both countrys.
It was used by the Government of the USA to justify massive government control of the public educaction system and it has been downhill with our education system since.
I also know that outerspace exploration has been mostly for the purpose of control and exploration down here on the earth ..not in outer space ala
Star Trek and Star Wars. This is true of both nations...the USA and Russia.
I live right next to the NASA Langley Research Center. Lots of retired NASA people live around here. They can tell you some very intresting things when you can get them to speak frankly.

Russia has been used or misused as a dialectic to keep both the Russians and Americans in line through fear. This dialectic could not be maintained for many years after the failure of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow.
You could not have in 1980 hundreds of thousands of Westerners running around Russia seeing how unsuperpower it really was. This is why the Olympics were canceled. Not Afganistan as reported in the media. You could not have thousands and thousands of Americans returning home in 1980 with what they saw and didnt see in Russia.
There was a test batch of Americans and Westerners allowed to go to Russia on special tour packages on Pan Am in the late 1970s. THey were the test batch to see what Americans could see in Russia. And they saw. One of this test batch ...an economics professor ..began to speak out about what he saw in Russia. One of the things about which he saw and spoke up was massive drunkeness. Sure enough..eventually the Russian leadership began to crack down and make speachs on public drunkeness.
I remember when these crackdown speechs were made as they were big news here on Chicken Noodle News.(CNN). Yes we have our version of Pravda here too.
Nonetheless you could not have westerners see this in Russia.

Certain American Leaders have known this for years... our own Senator John Warner for one...but never told or educated the American Public on this. I will be glad to see John Warner Retire next year but hold no hope for his replacement. This is the fault of the American governmet not the Russian Government. Our own government is a liar and deceiver here.

Manson, All the scientists and thinkers mean nothing if a nation does not have the economic base and/or forethought both to bring these ideas to fruitition.

All I have to do to know if a nation is a super power is go to the local Wally World. Find a Russian I pod, computer. toaster oven. etc etc etc. None of these items is made in Russia and exported. To be frank about it ...very few are made in the USA and exported anymore too.

This world is not what it appears to be on the surface. Underneath it is quite different as is the true history not taught to us in public schools or on the History Channel/Discovery channel.
The new dialectic today appears to be Fundamental Islamic Terror to replace the Soviets and keep people and nations in line.

But it one reads and thinks carefully you can see underneath sufficient to see a very different picture than the one presented to the public.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 4-9-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 4-9-2007 by orangetom1999]