Round 1. galm1 v. discomfit: The Father, The Son, and Holy Grandchildren, page 1
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Topic started on 7-8-2007 @ 01:23 AM by The Vagabond
The topic for this debate is "There is credible evidence that Jesus had descendents and that the secret of their existence has affected the course of history".

galm1 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
discomfit will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


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reply posted on 7-8-2007 @ 09:58 AM by galm 1
I used to debate all the time at school for classroom debates... I ruled at them... I feel like I'm back at school in another debate... Anyway, time to debate this topic...

Ladies and Gentlemen, my opponent here is trying to prove that Jesus did not have children. My job here is to prove the fact that Jesus did in fact, have children. Not just that, I'm going to prove that he was married.

If you think about it, we're all Jesus's children.

Here's some info from
www.thetruejesus.org...

And so it was that Mary Magdalene and Jesus’ children were literally the uniting of Judah and Israel, once again. In this way, their children, if known, would have been used to rally the Jewish people into a rebellion for freedom from Rome...
...Jesus was aware that Rome would be looking for Mary and their children, thus together, they agreed that Mary should take Tamar to Gaul for safety in 44 A. D. It was the last time they would see each other in physical bodies.


P.S. I'm not sure if the quote code will work

Anyway...

sense Jesus was man, it's man's natural instinct to reproduce.

Looks like it your turn now...


reply posted on 8-8-2007 @ 10:59 AM by discomfit
Originally posted by galm 1
It is true that many men that have reached Jesus's age have not reproduced yet. If you go by Darwin's theory, Survival of the Fittest...


Wikipedia
says...
Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if its conclusion does not follow from its premises.[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise.


I believe that is the situation we are in.

Darwin's theory does not prove that Jesus had children.


reply posted on 9-8-2007 @ 10:26 PM by galm 1
I think that this debate isn't quite over yet... I've been motivated to keep on trucking... anyway... Thank you so much Vagabond...

Here's a quote from
Link...

we took a detour through the New Testament teachings about Jesus. There we discovered that the Jesus of the New Testament is both fully human and fully divine, but that He is only one person. The properties of both natures (human and divine) are evident in the person, each according to its respective nature.

Three factors are particularly relevant.

First, getting married and begetting children are human activities. Since Jesus was truly and completely human, He was certainly capable of marrying and, for that matter, of having children. This may seem surprising to those who have not thought much about the humanity of Jesus. If we think about Jesus’ incarnation, however, we will also be surprised that He could be wrapped in swaddling clothes. We will be surprised that He would have to eat and sleep. Devout Christians have always stood astonished before these facts, but they have always admitted them. We ought to be surprised that Jesus Christ would be able to marry and to beget children. Our surprise, however, should not turn into denial. Jesus’ full masculinity is a necessary consequence of His complete human nature.

Second, the Bible teaches that marriage, sexual relations, and having children are good and pure activities. Marriage was instituted by God Himself, before sin was in the world. Part of His original design in creation was for human beings to “be fruitful and multiply,” and humans have never multiplied by sprouting in cabbage patches. Sex was part of God’s perfect plan for humanity. In the beginning God made humans as male and female. In spite of all the wrong things that can be done with human sexuality, Hebrews 13:4 bluntly declares that marriage is honorable and the bed (a metaphor for sexual relations within marriage) is undefiled. Writing to the Corinthians, Paul teaches that husbands and wives owe sexual intimacy to one another. According to the Bible, human sexuality is holy and good within the marriage covenant. If Jesus had chosen to marry and to have children, He would have been doing nothing sinful per se. A Jesus who married and fathered children would have been morally permissible.

A third factor helps to answer these questions. Jesus is a theanthropic person. In other words, He has a complete human nature and a complete divine nature, united into a single personality. Each nature displays its attributes in the person, but not in the other nature.


Sorry, it's VERY long... I cut it down to the best of my abilities... blah blah blah...

What it is saying is that if Jesus was perfect, how come he didn't follow human nature? We're not perfect... So that explains why many men that reached Jesus's age have not reproduced... but what about Jesus... he was Perfect.

YOUR TURN!!!


reply posted on 10-8-2007 @ 11:04 AM by discomfit
Originally posted by galm 1
What it is saying is that if Jesus was perfect, how come he didn't follow human nature? We're not perfect... So that explains why many men that reached Jesus's age have not reproduced... but what about Jesus... he was Perfect.

YOUR TURN!!!


Regarding Jesus being perfect



Working under the assumption the Jesus was perfect we must address a question that theory brings up : What was Jesus perfect for ?

More directly, was Jesus sent here to be the perfect regular Joe or the perfect messenger of Gods word ?

The question framed in that light will show that according to the bible Jesus was sent here to be the perfect messenger of God. Indeed Jesus getting married and raising a family would take away from his ability to be Gods perfect messenger which is by every indication in the bible is Gods mission for Jesus.

It would have been unusually cruel for God (the kind, friendly fuzzy god of the new testament) to send Jesus to earth, have him get in a family then make him chose between his family and spreading Gods word. That situation would require Jesus to either be the perfect father or the perfect messenger of God. I don't believe to be both is possible. Being the perfect father or the perfect messenger of God has consequences that I believe to be incompatible - Jesus could not have been both.

Every indication in the bible points towards a Jesus who is there to do Gods work as the bearer of his message not of a Jesus here to fulfill his humanly desires.

Jesus: exceptional just like everyone else



What would be the point of God sending Jesus if he was just going to basically be like everyone but with magical powers ? It would seem to be a waste to send Jesus to earth just so he could be another average Joe by getting married and popping out 1.5 kids. The exceptional thing about Jesus was that he was unlike other people.

Think of it, Jesus starts claiming he's the son of God then goes, hey we need to chill on this God stuff for a second, that chick over there is smoking hot.

It's worth noting that Jesus wasn't the only guy reported to have magical powers in the day.

Tangent



Even if we assume Jesus was here to get married and have kids what women would be of high enough stature to undertake the task of being his counterpart , the bearer of Gods Sons children ?

It seems God would have to send another kid of his in the form of a women for such a union to occur. This would obviously be a morally turbulent situation as Jesus would be dating, marrying and having kids with his own sister.


For these reasons and many others I think there is significant cause to doubt that Jesus got married and had kids who then went on to be his secret blood line.
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