It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
I can't see Japan perusing an independent next generation fighter. Prototype and test study, yes, but full production? Not a chance.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
The prototype that they in mind is more in the realm of a limited technology demonstrator void of weaponry, avionics, sensors and not even full size. As you know quite well there is a bit more than that involved in a full combat ready production run. Not even the US with more money, experience, technology, industry and resources could develop and field a next generation fighter in less than a decade as was evident by the F-22 and now with the F-35. In Japan's case they'll be lucky to get a prototype flying before ~2015 as the article mentions.
[edit on 25-7-2007 by WestPoint23]
Originally posted by thebozeian
"Oh that was easy", for my next trick I'll be picking the winner of the Indian fighter competion....
LEE.
Originally posted by Daedalus3
Originally posted by thebozeian
"Oh that was easy", for my next trick I'll be picking the winner of the Indian fighter competion....
LEE.
Let us in on the secret!!
Originally posted by northwolf
When your calculating R&D costs, i must remind you that Japan is atleast a decade ahead on the USA in both rapid prototyping and highly flexible manufacturing systems.
Originally posted by northwolf
And outsourcing both radar and avionics to Israelis etc. should help them even more.
Originally posted by kilcoo316
Saab Gripen. Contract signed 1982, first flight, 1987 with first production aircraft built in 1993.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
With all due respect to Saab, the Gripen was not such a generational and technological leap like the F-22 and F-35. If Japan wants to develop a true 5th Generation fighter on it's own it will take a long time indeed.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Well, Japan is at least a decade behind in terms of industrial capacity to produce highly complex military fighters on it's own. Not to mention the military lag in terms of technology, stealth, engines, manufacturing techniques etc… When it comes to the military sector Japan is not at an advantage in this field.
Originally posted by northwolf
Could you tell me how manufacturing components to a fighter jet differs from making other highly sophisticated products? making a carbonfibre frame is a same process weather you make a fighter or a racecar...
Originally posted by kilcoo316
Those two aircraft are a large step as a result of many small individual steps.
Originally posted by kilcoo316
If I was running it, I would outsource the radar/avionics, that removes alot the budget right there. They would also be outsourcing the engine, another big budgetary item.
Originally posted by kilcoo316
Westy, your on a loser with this argument!
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Not really, the F-35 maybe, but most of the systems for the F-22 were designed for it, hence the high R&D cost and long development time.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
What the point of this design? To produce a fighter locally or to create a viable 5th generation replacement? Because you are not going to get close to the latter this way.
Originally posted by WestPoint230
And as for manufacturing, there is indeed a big difference from producing cars to military aircraft anyone in the industry would tell you so. Don't over simply the issue and look over all the resource and technical aspects of it.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
GM for example could not turn around and produce an F-22 (or compete with Lockheed for that matter) even if we gave them a considerable amount of time.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Right, because the F-2 project, a much simpler and easier program has turn out such a stellar aircraft? Japan can produce a fighter locally, I just don't think it will be in the same league as the F-35 or F-22. And it it's not than the whole point of it become moot.
Right, because the F-2 project, a much simpler and easier program has turn out such a stellar aircraft?
Originally posted by kilcoo316
There is not one part of the F-22 which is in isolation revolutionary.
Originally posted by kilcoo316
Your completely underestimating the competency and technical level of the Japanese - just doing some quick googling, and I've underestimated their technical level.
Originally posted by kilcoo316
They have developed AESA radars, they have developed integrated EW packs, they have (with Honeywell) developed fly-by-wire systems [not that that is a particularly tough technical challenge].
Originally posted by kilcoo316
There is nothing magical in the water in the US that prevents other nations from matching its technical creations.
Originally posted by xmotex
The main problem with it is that it's expensive as hell - around $100M a pop if I'm not mistaken.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Revolutionary, maybe not, but it would not be a small feat trying to duplicate them even on an individual basis, let alone the whole package.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
You are once again glossing over the fact that we are talking about the defense sector, Japan holds no real advantage here.
Originally posted by WestPoint23
"They"? You might want to look at the level of technology transfers and involvement concerning US defense corporations when it comes to the Japanese military. Who do you think helped them with the AESA?
Originally posted by WestPoint23
I'm just not sure about the time line involved. You first need a foundation on which to build and expand. The US did not get to where it's at overnight, or even over several years. I'm sure given enough time the Japanese could one day build an F-22 but where will the cutting edge at that time be?
Originally posted by WestPoint23
Well the main problem is that Japan did not build it by themselves. There was heavy US involvement and development (research, manufacturing etc...) in the project without which I have doubts the fighter would be what it is.
Even with a lot of the initial R/D, baseline design and critical systems already developed you still end up with a 100 Million dollar fighter (without R/D) and with more than a decade worth of development. This for essentially a 4-4.5 Gen aircraft (with a lot of US help). Now they are going to develop a 5 Gen F-35/F-22 on short notice with little problems and cost? Lets be realistic here.