Secret Service Does Not Use Its Stinger Missiles to Protect New York

Evidence that the Secret Service had Stinger missiles at builidng 7. No reports on if they used them. Why didn't the Secret Service try to stop the planes if they had the resources? Specially Flight 77 in restricted airspace?

www.cooperativeresearch.org...

In New York, the Secret Service has a Stinger missile secretly stored in the World Trade Center, to be used to protect the president if the city were attacked when he visits it. Presumably it keeps this is in WTC Building 7, where its field office is. [Tech TV, 7/23/2002; Weiss, 2003, pp. 379] Stinger missiles provide short-range air defense against low-altitude airborne targets, such as fix-winged aircraft, helicopters, and cruise missiles. They have a range of between one and eight kilometers. [Federation of American Scientists, 8/9/2000; GlobalSecurity (.org), 4/27/2005] Whether the Secret Service makes any attempt at defending New York from the two attacking planes with its Stinger missile is unknown. The agency is also known to have air surveillance capabilities. These include a system called Tigerwall, which provides “early warning of airborne threats” and “a geographic display of aircraft activity” (see (September 2000 and after)). And according to Barbara Riggs, who is in the Secret Service’s Washington, DC headquarters on this day, the agency is “able to receive real time information about other hijacked aircraft,” through “monitoring radar and activating an open line with the FAA.” [US Department of the Navy, 9/2000, pp. 28 ; PCCW Newsletter, 3/2006; Star-Gazette (Elmira), 6/5/2006] These capabilities would presumably be of use if the Secret Service wanted to defend the World Trade Center. Furthermore, according to the British defense publication Jane’s Land-Based Air Defence, “the American president’s residences in Washington and elsewhere are protected by specialist Stinger teams in case of an aerial attack by terrorist organizations.” [Jane's Land-Based Air Defence, 10/13/2000]

[edit on 22-7-2007 by ULTIMA1]

One must consider the state of confusion and time factors - Flight 11
was hijacked around 8:15AM, it was not known as being hijacked until
some minutes later and even then nobody knew what it intended target
was . The Secret Service would then need permission to access the
weapon and ready it for firing - we know that the jet fighters did not
have permissions to fire until after all the hijacked planes had crashed.
Also where would you fire it from? WTC 7 was ringed by buildings and
not have clear field of fire. Ok go to top of WTC towers - have clear view
for miles. Roof is locked and only some Port Authority people have
access - have to find someone from Port Authority to open roof. Ok - can
see plane, suppose you do shoot, what now? NYC is one of more densely
populated places on earth - where do you crash the plane? Hudson River
if very lucky, otherwise comes down in either NY or Jersey City, both
very heavily populated. Plane ploughs through block of buildings takes
out tousand people. There is not a lot of places in area to put down
a jet liner. Better yet is prevent hijackers from getting hold of plane or
deal with it long before reaches NY.

Stingers vs a 757 aren't as effective as people have been led to believe. They're perfect for helicopters and low flying fighters or other attack craft, but it would take several of them to bring down a 757. Just look at the DHL Airbus in Iraq that was hit by a similar missile and landed safely. It was similar in size to a 757-200. And as the previous poster pointed out there was no way of knowing that the planes were going to crash into the buildings until it was way too late to do anything about it with any kind of MANPADS.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Stingers vs a 757 aren't as effective as people have been led to believe. They're perfect for helicopters and low flying fighters or other attack craft, but it would take several of them to bring down a 757. Just look at the DHL Airbus in Iraq that was hit by a similar missile and landed safely. It was similar in size to a 757-200. And as the previous poster pointed out there was no way of knowing that the planes were going to crash into the buildings until it was way too late to do anything about it with any kind of MANPADS.

Why did the Secret Service let FLight 77 get into restricted airspace and fly near the capitial?

Well stingers and other MANPADS have brought down airliners. Their are reports of that.

INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW - APRIL 01, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David versus Goliath
Mark Hewish and Joris Janssen Lok

The arithmetic is straightforward. A single soldier or terrorist with a surface-to-air missile costing as little at US$5,000 can destroy an aircraft carrying several hundred personnel and costing more than US$100 million. As a result, airlines and air forces are taking urgent new measures to minimize the risk from such threats. Mark Hewish and Joris Janssen Lok report.

Attacks on military airlifters and civilian transports by man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS) are not new. Estimates of the numbers vary, running as high as 43 hits on civilian aircraft - with 30 of these resulting in aircraft kills and the loss of nearly 1,000 lives - since the 1970s. More than half a million MANPADS have been delivered worldwide, and many of these are still operational. The early Russian-built Kolomna Strela (designated SA-7 Grail by NATO) underwent several improvements to its performance, and has been built under license (or copied) elsewhere. Variants include the Chinese HN-5, together with systems produced in Egypt, North Korea, Pakistan and the former Yugoslavia. The more recent Russian Strela 3 (SA-14 Gremlin) and Igla (SA-16 Gimlet/SA-18 Grouse), together with the Chinese Qianwei/QW-1 Advanced Guard and US-developed Stinger, are also in service with several guerrilla or terrorist organizations. These typically have a range of 5-8km and can reach an altitude of approximately 12,000ft.

Quite apart from the cost in equipment and lives, MANPADS attacks can have devastating effects.

The destruction of a Falcon 50 business jet carrying the presidents of Rwanda and Burundi in 1994 contributed to the outbreak of the genocidal civil war in Rwanda. Other assaults include the shooting-down of a Congo Airlines Boeing 727 with 40 people aboard after take-off from Kindu in 1998, and approximately 20 attacks by Tamil Tigers on aircraft operated by the Sri Lankan government that have killed nearly 200 people.

Its also why companies have been comming out with anti missile systems for airliners.

(U) FLIGHT GUARD
Country of Origin Israel
System Names FLIGHT GUARD, FLIGHTGUARD
System Functions Dispenser
Missile Warning Receiver

Intended Targets Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAMs)
Information Cut-Off Date October 2003
UNCLASSIFIED

(U) System Overview
(U) The system overview provided herein is primarily based largely on unsubstantiated manufacturer's advertising materials, trade publications, and intelligence sources. Although analysis is incomplete, technical characteristics were verified as feasible in preliminary engineering analysis.

(U) Assembled in response to a perceived urgent requirement for civilian airliner self-protection in Israel [1], FLIGHT GUARD is an integrated pulse-Doppler radar missile warning system (MWS) and decoy dispensing system. Currently in the latter stages of testing with Israeli government licensing expected during early 2004, the system is under joint development by Israel Aircraft Industries’ subsidiary Elta Electronic Systems Ltd and the Re’em Electronic Systems Division of Israel Military Industries (IMI). The MWS component is Elta’s EL/M-2160 (or variant), a pulse-Doppler radar system operationally deployed on military aircraft within Israel and elsewhere. The dispensing system is IMI’s SAMP, which would almost certainly use flares produced by IMI’s Rocket Systems Division (e.g., the FG-6).

[edit on 22-7-2007 by ULTIMA1]

I didn't say that they CAN'T shoot them down, but you have to look at everything involved in the shoot downs they were used for. The Falcon 50 is a tiny business jet with all three engines clustered at the tail. If one explodes from the impact of a missile then it's a lot more likely to take out at least one more. The same with the engines on a 727. A 757 or Airbus has the engines spread farther out on the wings, so an impact on one isn't going to blow both of them apart.

You seem to think that someone can react within seconds of an incident based on very little information. What do you expect them to do with Flight 77? The airspace around the Pentagon isn't ultra secure restricted airspace. It CAN'T be. The airspace DIRECTLY over the Pentagon is, but planes fly within a mile of the Pentagon CONSTANTLY to land at National. Not only that but the Secret Service isn't responsible for protecting the Pentagon. The military is.

The USSS normally does not deal with hijacked planes, that is up to the military (NORAD) and the Federal Aviation Administration.

The big question is why were there only 2 armed jets available to cover the whole East Coast that morning and even then they were on 30 minute alert (meaning 30 minutes to fuel them, arm them, etc).

Even if the jets got there a few seconds sooner (they arrived over Lower Manhattan like 20 seconds after the 2nd plane hit the tower) it would not have made a difference for the reasons stated above; rules of engagement, the urban density, etc.

There weren't just 2 for the East Coast, just 2 anywhere near NY to be able to get there within a short period of time. There were only 14 on Alert that day. Since the 1990s the US has only had a maximum of 21 fighters armed and ready to launch for air defense interceptions at any given moment.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
There weren't just 2 for the East Coast, just 2 anywhere near NY to be able to get there within a short period of time. There were only 14 on Alert that day. Since the 1990s the US has only had a maximum of 21 fighters armed and ready to launch for air defense interceptions at any given moment.

Ok thanks for the correction

How long would it have taken them to get airborne from the time the FAA told the USAF/NORAD that planes were hijacked to when they actually took off? I assume they also have pilots on standby for this type of emergency?

You have different types of Alert Status. There's Alert 5, 10, 15, and IIRC 20. From the time they are notified to launch, they have 5, 10, 15 or 20 minutes to be wheels up. Alert 5 is usually used during wartime, as it requires the pilots to be actually sitting in the cockpit while they're on Alert. The standard posture of the USAF is Alert 15, although they're usually airborne in much less time. I believe the average was 8-10 minutes from the time the buzzer sounded to wheels up.

I'm sure if these existed, they were just stored there for deployment at locations in the city well in advance of a known presidential or foreign dignitary visit as needed. I doubt they were ever meant to be deployed on a moment's notice to prevent an attack on a civilian target.

[edit on 7/22/2007 by djohnsto77]

[edit on 7/22/2007 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You have different types of Alert Status. There's Alert 5, 10, 15, and IIRC 20. From the time they are notified to launch, they have 5, 10, 15 or 20 minutes to be wheels up. Alert 5 is usually used during wartime, as it requires the pilots to be actually sitting in the cockpit while they're on Alert. The standard posture of the USAF is Alert 15, although they're usually airborne in much less time. I believe the average was 8-10 minutes from the time the buzzer sounded to wheels up.

Thanks Zaphod!

djohnsto, IIRC the US Secret Service (and several other federal law enforcement agencies) had field offices in WTC7 so I would imagine it was stored there along with additional weapons for the special agents and uniformed division officers assigned there. Supposedly they also have access to M249s, grenade launchers, etc.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You seem to think that someone can react within seconds of an incident based on very little information. What do you expect them to do with Flight 77? The airspace around the Pentagon isn't ultra secure restricted airspace. It CAN'T be. The airspace DIRECTLY over the Pentagon is, but planes fly within a mile of the Pentagon CONSTANTLY to land at National. Not only that but the Secret Service isn't responsible for protecting the Pentagon. The military is.

But thats NORAD's job to react quickly where their is little infomration. They do not get much prior warning or information on a missile launch or rogue aircraft.

But the airspace around the Pentagon is restricted, and it is more restricted around the Capital. You and i both know their is no way a hijacked airliner should get into restricted airspace without being intercepted.

But the Secret Service is responsible for protecting the Capital and Flight 77 flew near the Capital.



[edit on 22-7-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I'm sure if these existed, they were just stored there for deployment at locations in the city well in advance of a known presidential or foreign dignitary visit as needed. I doubt they were ever meant to be deployed on a moment's notice to prevent an attack on a civilian target.

It does not take that long to set up and shoot a stinger. We also have the police report in the 911 commission report of a missile being fired from the Woolworth builidng.

Actually the Capitol is protected by the US Capitol Police which did evacuate the Capitol when told to by the FAA.

Almost every federal agency and organization has their own police and/or investigative branch with police powers. Even the FBI has their own uniformed police force to protect the FBI headquarters and the larger field offices called the FBI Police Department.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
Almost every federal agency and organization has their own police and/or investigative branch with police powers. Even the FBI has their own uniformed police force to protect the FBI headquarters and the larger field offices called the FBI Police Department.

Yes, i know all about fedarl law enforcement. I was a federal police officer. I am graduate of the Federal Law Enfocement Training Center in Glynco GA.

As no doubt mentined before, If the Stinger is up, armed and ready to go, it may have made a difference maybe:

1) The agent would have to have line of sight to the incomming jet. Given the city environment, that may have been tought to say the least.

2) I doubt the stinger was up and ready to go. So you would have to find an agent checked out on the device, get it out of its secure area and set it up. Also get into a place you could fire the device. While there are standards for such a thing, how long would it take a agent who does not train ont he device everyday to do all of that.

3) Confusion after the first hit. Many peopel thought the first was an accident. Complete word was not out and information was sketchy to say the least. In that type of environement I would not expect the agents in the building to grab a stinger. (Today yes, but on 911? doubtfull)

More to the point, if you are the agent, could you fire on an airliner full of people? Now its an easy answer, n September 11, 2001 it would not be so easy.

4) The stinger would home in on an engine and taking it out (its a small warhead) may have still allowed the plane to hit. May mind you.

also you have to have presidential order to shoot down a civilian aircraft....and it's unconfirmed as to when the president gave the order.... i've heard chaney gave it right after the second strike....there's a pilot that says he was given the order by the secret service to shoot down any civilian aircraft near the white house...but he wasnt armed at all...(i'm unsure of the time)....

bottom third by us pilot picture

There is one pilot who received a shoot-down order, but he was not in a position to execute it. Marc Sasseville flies out of Andrews Air Force Base, just a few kilometres from the White House. He received the order not through the proper military channels, but directly from the Secret Service in the White House bunker with the Vice President.

Originally posted by wenfieldsecret
also you have to have presidential order to shoot down a civilian aircraft....and it's unconfirmed as to when the president gave the order.... i've heard chaney gave it right after the second strike....there's a pilot that says he was given the order by the secret service to shoot down any civilian aircraft near the white house...but he wasnt armed at all...(i'm unsure of the time)....

You are forgetting about the F-16's the Secret Service sent up and told the the pilotsd to protect the white house at all cost (that does include shooting down aircraft)

To fire the Stinger successfully you would have had to have had a clear line of sight. Not likely in downtown Manhattan. The missle is a heat seeker
it does not use radar, You would have had to have been on top of a building or on a boat in the river in order to obtain a clear shot. The 727 would probably had to have been hit 2 times by a Stingers to bring it down and then you still would have to deal with debris damage. Also you would have had some warning as to which direction the aircraft was approching from Stinger dont operate in a vacumn normally stinger units recieve communications from higher headquarters that have radar and report on movement.

I realize that in Afganistan the units operated without higher headquarters, but they also where stationed on hill tops can shooting for the most part at low flying helecopters.

I am a former Air Defense Artillery Intelligence and Operations Specialist chances of stopping the attack with a Stinger is almost non existant in the built up urban enviorment of Lower Manhattan.

FIM-92A Stinger Weapons System



[edit on 7/23/2007 by DarkStormCrow]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
You are forgetting about the F-16's the Secret Service sent up and told the the pilotsd to protect the white house at all cost (that does include shooting down aircraft)

he's from andrews.....and he was told to protect the white house at all costs...but once again....secret service does not scramble the fighters....they got in comms with them in the air....

hmmm...cooperative reaserch.org is not appearing...it's my favorite non biased 9-11 site....