The truth about the Roswell Incident

what crashed on the Foster ranch? was it a ufo? was it a weather balloon? Or was it Project Mogul?(a balloon like thing?)

Many witnesses of the debris described tape with flower designs or hieroglyphics on it.

Charles B. Moore
There were about four of us who were involved in this, and all remember that our targets had sort of a stylized, flowerlike design. I have prepared, in my life, probably more than a hundred of these targets for flight. And every time I have prepared one of these targets, I have always wondered what the purpose of that tape marking was. But . . . a major named John Peterson, laughed . . . and said 'What do you expect when you get your targets made by a toy factory?'"

Brazel's daughter, Bessie Brazel Schreiber described some aluminum ring-shaped objects in the debris that looked like pipe intake collars or the necks of balloons. She estimated that they were about 4 inches around, and said she could put her hand through them.

Charles Moore points out that Flight 4 carried several 3-inch-diameter aluminum rings for assisting with the launching of the balloon train, as well as larger rings used to hold the sonobuoys. These were cut from cylindrical tubing stock, and then chamfered to prevent damage to the ropes.

Want to learn more? click on this link

The Mogul explanation has been debunked a LONG time ago. You should have namd the topic: The lies about the Roswell incident'

Kinda pisses me off when you are claiming the "truth" about something, when that "truth" hasnt held up for years. If you are gonna try to come to a conclusion about Roswell (which I wouldnt myself try to do - without definite proof) you should go with a theory thats atleast supported with facts.

[edit on 4-7-2007 by LogicalThinker]

[edit on 4-7-2007 by LogicalThinker]

Hi LogicalThinker, what troubles you about the mogul baloon story?

Nice post YS, just ignore the trolls. The FACT is there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the Mogul explanation and ZERO evidence to support a crashed alien spaceship. It’s all lies, hearsay and twisted logic cooked up 30 years later combined with a “will to believe” that makes Roswell supporters ignore common sense. No wonder the mainstream thinks UFO buffs are nuts.

The Roswell supporters don’t know what to do with Bessie Brazel’s testimony which ironically backs up Major Jessie Marcel’s testimony that the debris wasn’t switched in the famous Fort Worth photographs taken with General Ramey so they ignore it because it doesn’t “fit”. Here’s more…

The Problem With Bessie
www.roswellfiles.com...

"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other... Sticks, like kite sticks, were attacked to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors... The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil... I do not recall anything else about the stength or other properties of what we picked up. We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it into sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks... We speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember dad (Mac Brazel) saying 'Oh, it's just a bunch of garbage.'"

The FACT is only five people can actually be proven to have seen the debris on the Foster Ranch and all of their descriptions are perfectly consistent with a crashed Mogul balloon. Those people are…

Rancher Mac Brazel
Bessie Brazel
Vernon Brazel
Major Jessie Marcel
Captain Sheridan Cavitt

Here’s Mac Brazel’s description of the debris given to a reporter in 1947 that also describes the flowery tape…

Interview with Mac Brazel
Roswell Daily Chronicle, July 9, 1947
www.roswellfiles.com...

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

At the time Brazel was in a hurry to get his round made and he did not pay much attention to it. But he did remark about what he had seen and on July 4 he, his wife, Vernon, and a daughter Betty, age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up quite a bit of the debris.

The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of these.

Monday he came to town to sell some wool and while here he went to see sheriff George Wilcox and "whispered kinda confidential like" that he might have found a flying disk.

Wilcox got in touch with the Roswell Army Air Field and Maj. Jesse A. Marcel and a man in plain clothes accompanied him home, where they picked up the rest of the pieces of the "disk" and went to his home to try to reconstruct it.

According to Brazel they simply could not reconstruct it at all. They tried to make a kite out of it, but could not do that and could not find any way to put it back together so that it would fit.

Then Major Marcel brought it to Roswell and that was the last he heard of it until the story broke that he had found a flying disk.

Brazel said that he did not see it fall from the sky and did not see it before it was torn up, so he did not know the size or shape it might have been, but he thought it might have been about as large as a table top. The balloon which held it up, if that was how it worked, must have been about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in diameter.

When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds.

There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil.

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

No strings or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.

Brazel said that he had previously found two weather balloons on the ranch, but that what he found this time did not in any way resemble either of these.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything about it."

He's right, it wasn't any ordinary weather ballon. It was a TOP SECRET Mogul ballon with radar refelectors and a sonabouy. Sounds like Brazel might be a little miffed he’s not going to get the big cash reward for a “flying disk” he heard about in Corrona doesn’t it? The Roswell supporters would like you to think he was “forced” to give this story LOL but the people who made up those stories 30 years later have all been debunked. My advice when investigating the Roswell case is to stick to the facts and don’t let anyone fool you, the FACTS in this case (and there’s plenty of them) were all established in 1947.

One thing's for sure, as long as people continue to support Roswell the subject of UFOs will never be taken seriously... then again maybe that's the point.

AD

[fixed typos]

[edit on 4-7-2007 by Access Denied]

Access denied nice post, i had never seen Bessies statement before. Isn't it funny how all the ufo sites ignore the statements from primary witnesses like this? as if they have another agenda

I think that if you dig deeper into the whole MOGUL issue, you'll find that no balloons were released in the area at the time (each was catalogued with date and time of release) and that the prevailing weather patterns for the period in question would not have allowed them to get near to the ranch in question.

I'll see if I can dig out a link - I'm sure I used to have one somewhere.

I'm also of the opinion it was part of the MOGUL
project.

This Site
relates the story well.

Also, this Site
has a good history and info on past military ballon projects.

Both are interesting to peruse.

Regards,
Lex

neformore theres plenty of UFO/Roswell professionals try to debunk mogul flight #4- what else would you expect?

One of their favourites is "flight #4 does not appear in the final mogul report- it was never launched" Well what they fail to mention is neither do flights #2 or #3 appear in the final report, are they saying those never launched either? of course that is never addressed by them.....

Also the report says mogul flight #4 is the most likely source of the debris. If it wasnt flight #4 it was guaranteed some other ballooon debris that came from the base. Or is it just coincidence there was a major balloon project lauching hundreds of balloons in 1947 and balloon like debris was found. Now if there were no balloon flights at all in the area in 1947 you might have a case. Too much coincidence there my friend.

Originally posted by Access Denied
It’s all lies, hearsay and twisted logic cooked up 30 years later combined with a “will to believe” that makes Roswell supporters ignore common sense. No wonder the mainstream thinks UFO buffs are nuts.

Oh, the irony...

Originally posted by Access Denied
The Roswell supporters don’t know what to do with Bessie Brazel’s testimony which ironically backs up Major Jessie Marcel’s testimony that the debris wasn’t switched in the famous Fort Worth photographs taken with General Ramey so they ignore it because it doesn’t “fit”.

Good grief, Marcel certainly did say the debris was switched.






The Problem With Bessie
www.roswellfiles.com...

The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors.

Amazing how this tape isn't on anything in the pics from Ramey's Office.

Better yet its not on the RAWINs that were shown to the Press at Alamogordo July 9th and claimed to be the Property of Watson Labs!!!

Originally posted by Access Denied
Here’s Mac Brazel’s description of the debris given to a reporter in 1947 that also describes the flowery tape…

AD, you ever thought about buying a Cherry Orchard? The way you cherry pick you might not even need hired help!

It doesn't bother you at all that Brazel was taken to the Daily Record by MP's? Or that Brazel doesn't even get the 'Cover story' straight.

For instance he says in the Daily Record article a "12 foot long balloon"! Well that's certainly not a description of a 600 ft MOGUL Train is it?

Originally posted by Access Denied
He's right, it wasn't any ordinary weather ballon. It was a TOP SECRET Mogul ballon with radar refelectors and a sonabouy.

Really? Everything used in MOGUL Trains was off the shelf Weather Balloon gear plus a standard Navy sonobuoy. The only thing TOP SECRET about it was what they wanted to hear with the sonobuoy.

Originally posted by Access Denied
Sounds like Brazel might be a little miffed he’s not going to get the big cash reward for a “flying disk” he heard about in Corrona doesn’t it?

What about the cash reward offered to people who were finding MOGUL Balloon Trains? If he found a MOGUL Balloon Train and wanted a reward so bad why not collect the reward offered on the REWARD TAG on the MOGUL Train?

Originally posted by Access Denied
The Roswell supporters would like you to think he was “forced” to give this story LOL but the people who made up those stories 30 years later have all been debunked.

Right, just like he was staying at the Base for a week afterwards; on vacation?!

Originally posted by Access Denied
One thing's for sure, as long as people continue to support Roswell the subject of UFOs will never be taken seriously... then again maybe that's the point.

UFOs (UAP) are being taken seriously even if most people are not aware of it yet.

Roswell as a historical event can not change that.


[edit on 4-7-2007 by lost_shaman]

Now you guys don't get mad at me, because I'm not posting the this video to try to debunk Roswell - I don't know what really happened, but it is an interesting story that won't go away. Anyway, I thought that the video was interesting
www.youtube.com...

[edit on 4-7-2007 by NTSFR2]

Good grief, Marcel certainly did say the debris was switched.

well he said in his 1978 & 1980 interviews the debris he was photographed with in the office was some of the debris recovered from the ranch. What year do you have him saying it was switched? I thought he never changed his story. As far as im aware the debris switch story first surfaced in 1990 - 4 years after Marcel died

Originally posted by yeti101

well he said in his 1978 & 1980 interviews the debris he was photographed with in the office was some of the debris recovered from the ranch. What year do you have him saying it was switched? I thought he never changed his story. As far as im aware the debris switch story first surfaced in 1990 - 4 years after Marcel died

From The Roswell Incident (1978)... "one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo. Later, they cleared out our wreckage and substituted some of their own. Then they allowed more photos."

Nice post Access Denied!!! I don't know if you are in American or not but happy 4 of July my friend.

Originally posted by neformore
I think that if you dig deeper into the whole MOGUL issue, you'll find that no balloons were released in the area at the time (each was catalogued with date and time of release) and that the prevailing weather patterns for the period in question would not have allowed them to get near to the ranch in question.

I'll see if I can dig out a link - I'm sure I used to have one somewhere.

That is not just not true

Recently, Charles Moore has developed a brand-new line of evidence even further supporting a link between the Roswell Incident and Project Mogul. UFO researcher Kevin Randle recently provided Moore with National Weather Service wind data for early June 1947. Moore, who has lived and breathed atmospheric physics most of his adult life, analyzed this data in detail. His analysis deals with three NYU flights : Flight 4 (June 4, 1947), Flight 5 (June 5), and Flight 6 (June 7). The Weather Service wind data are compatible with what is called a baroclinic weather system moving through the area. As this "trough aloft" slowly passes by, the winds aloft will shift from blowing toward the northeast, then toward the east, and then toward the southeast. At very high altitudes, however, this type of system produces high-level winds in the upper troposphere at cross directions to those at lower levels. Furthermore, the prevailing winds in the stratosphere during the summer months blow toward the west, while those in the transition region just above the tropopause blew toward the northwest during the early part of June 1947. For example, Flight 5 proceeded mainly east as it rose through the troposphere; when it entered the stratosphere, however, it was carried to the northwest. After some balloons burst and Flight 5 descended, it again headed in an easterly direction until it landed.

www.csicop.org...

Just for fun, I keep coming back to the notion that something odd happened, and that for some reason, it's still highly classified, but it doesn't have anything to do with aliens from space. Lately, I've become fascinated with the idea that a small, secret military space force may have started up right after the war. A large portion of it was later shifted to the "civilian" NASA program, but an important bit of it has always been secretly held by the military. Any early experiments with unusual rocket designs (air breather/rocket combos, for instance) carrying living test subjects would still be quite classified and worthy of continued secrecy even 60 years later.

The U.S. military budget has enough money in it to hide a half-dozen NASA programs. The secret space force itself wouldn't have to be nearly as big as NASA, either, using the public program for most of its research and development. There would be difficulties with disguising launches. But Vandenberg AFB has some very nice facilities, including SLC-6, a duplicate of the Shuttle Launch facility in Cape Canaveral. Those ICBM "test" launches might not all be what they're purported to be.

So a little experimental mini-shuttle carrying some apes or something is lost off radar and telemetry and crashes into the desert. A farmer picks up some bits and pieces.


[edit on 4-7-2007 by SuicideVirus]

"that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we found. It was not a staged photo"

this is what i was talking about. The story changed in 1990 to ALL of the debris being switched before any photos at all- and thats not what Marcel said. The photo he's talking about is confirmed balloon debris thats why they changed the story.

The airforce has changed its story so many times on this subject that it's laughable. I am not buying that it was a balloon of ANY type for one second. They had officers going around threatening civilians with DEATH if they talked about what was witnessed.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Amazing how this tape isn't on anything in the pics from Ramey's Office.

Why should they be? Do you see any close-ups of the sticks?

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Better yet its not on the RAWINs that were shown to the Press at Alamogordo July 9th and claimed to be the Property of Watson Labs!!!

So what? Are you claiming they all came from the same lot? If so, prove it.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
AD, you ever thought about buying a Cherry Orchard? The way you cherry pick you might not even need hired help!

LOL don’t try to change the change subject. Explain to me why ALL of the people (except Vernon Brazel who’s never said anything AFAIK) who can actually be proven to have seen the debris gave descriptions of it that are entirely consistent with a crashed Mogul balloon. You can’t.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
It doesn't bother you at all that Brazel was taken to the Daily Record by MP's? Or that Brazel doesn't even get the 'Cover story' straight.

Prove he was taken there by MPs. You can’t. Second hand hearsay doesn’t count. Brazel never said he was and neither did Marcel or Cavitt.

Originally posted by lost_shaman
For instance he says in the Daily Record article a "12 foot long balloon"! Well that's certainly not a description of a 600 ft MOGUL Train is it?

Tell us LS, how many balloons did that TRAIN have? You’re being disingenuous again. Who says he had to recover all of them and who says his ESTIMATE of the size of ONE BALLOON after it had been sitting out in the hot desert sun for OVER A MONTH has to be 100% correct? Is a RANCHER now supposed to be a meteorological balloon expert?

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Really? Everything used in MOGUL Trains was off the shelf Weather Balloon gear plus a standard Navy sonobuoy. The only thing TOP SECRET about it was what they wanted to hear with the sonobuoy.

And your point is?

Originally posted by lost_shaman
What about the cash reward offered to people who were finding MOGUL Balloon Trains? If he found a MOGUL Balloon Train and wanted a reward so bad why not collect the reward offered on the REWARD TAG on the MOGUL Train?

Again there were NO TAGS on Dr. People’s CLASSIFIED and unacknowledged service flights. Did you miss my post in the other thread?

Originally posted by lost_shaman
Right, just like he was staying at the Base for a week afterwards; on vacation?!

Again, prove he was kept there for a week. You can’t. Second hand hearsay doesn’t count. Brazel never said he was and neither did Bessie, Marcel or Cavitt.

Sorry LS, you're the only one here who's cherry picking and ignoring evidence that doesn’t fit your crashed alien spaceship fantasy... but I still love 'ya man!

My take on Roswell is:

1. It was 60 yers ago and most of the Adults involved are now quite old or passed away.

2. A man who was directly involved, and who recently died and left a 'death bed statement' that it was a UFO (if I have to name him then shame on you).

3. Marcel also restated his original concluson.

4. Respected scientist good old STan F is on the pro UFO team.

5 lets face it unless you where there your never going to really know now.

Point 2 especially interests me as a christian my believe in God is strong I for one would not lie if I knew death was near and also stated that anything I divulged could not be released until my death so that my oath of secrecy was not broken (if i had to make one). The guy was honorable to the end both to his employer, country and humanity. Surely this must give weight to his statement that a UFO was recovered, tie this in with the technology boom form the 50's onwards then well I believe it was a UFO and not a balloon for my ten cents.

Originally posted by SuicideVirus
So a little experimental mini-shuttle carrying some apes or something is lost off radar and telemetry and crashes into the desert. A farmer picks up some bits and pieces.

LOL well I don't know about that monkey business (the source of the alien body folklore that surfaced 30 years after Roswell?) but there’s one interesting thing I discovered while researching Dr Crary's journals that happened on July 3rd …

“Rocket postponed until 730 Thursday night but at last minute before balloon went up V2 was called off on account of accident at White Sands.”

I did some more research to find out what this accident was and I found one web site that mentioned some people working on the V2 were killed but all of the official records I could find don’t mention this so maybe some mystery (“cover up”?) there. I’ll have to try and find that one web site again.

I know some have a speculated that Kenneth Arnold’s “flying saucers” that he saw on June 24th and started the UFO craze just two weeks before the Roswell incident might have been a fleet of YB-49 “Flying Wings” (a precursor to the B-2 Stealth Bomber) but supposedly they never went into production and it’s first official flight wasn’t until October of 1947.

I don’t think the Roswell incident had anything to do with any secret craft (besides Mogul LOL) based on the principal witnesses descriptions of the debris but I suppose it’s possible a YB-49 may have been responsible for the supposed crash near Aztec, NM in 1948 which many believe was the inspiration (Frank Scully’s “Behind the Flying Saucers”) for the Roswell story 30 years later although it’s now widely regarded as a hoax (another Linda Mouton Howe SNAFU ) too…

skepdic.com...



[edit on 4-7-2007 by Access Denied]