Why is Religion the One Thing Considered Undebateable?

I'm currently reading Dawkins' The God Delusion.

In it he brought up a really good point, which I shall paraphrase here:

Why is it that every other belief a person has is open to debate, but religion is not?

To expand on this, why is it that you can argue (heatedly discuss, disagree) with a person on their political views, social views, sports views, but religion is expected to be exempt from this discussion?

Why is it that religion is held separate from other beliefs, and is not open to the same discussion/dissection as any other belief?

Belief is always subjective, whether of relative merits of the Dallas Cowboys or Jesus. So why is one OK to disagree with and the other makes people get so angry that they commit genocide, or jihad, or just start spitting hate speech?

I'm interested in people's thoughts on this particular seeming double standard.

[edit on 7-6-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Belief is always subjective, whether of relative merits of the Dallas Cowboys or Jesus.

Both are sacred, but only Jesus delivers as promised.

I understand your complaint. I think that your religion (Or lack of) should be open for discussion. Personally I'm sure that every one has some sort of internal discussion going on in their head, but they're afraid to discuss it openly. I guess they believe that it would show they were lacking faith or disclipine if they admitted that they were unsure of their religion.

Good post MajorMalfunction.

Let consider who has more to lose.

Atheist, their science. (no big deal in my opinion.)
Theist, their God. Ouch.

There are some theists who will not/cannot live without their God, disproving their Gods could have unpleasant results on the population of theist.

What would theists do/live for without their savior/God? Continue to live in denial? Look for a new religion? Explore/explain the material universe in some other way?

The way I see it, the theist have more to lose, most atheist can always go back to believeing in Gods if there was some way to study them directly, not through religion....

[edit on 7-6-2007 by ixiy]

I don't know what it is that makes it so uncommon to debate about it really, but then, a lot of things I never see debated outside of this website, so I think it's just the fact that so many people feel that it is something that shouldn't be discussed. As for why it has such a restriction, I don't know. I think it may be because some people are very insecure in what they believe/disbelieve, and are afraid to investigate the other way or debate it.

Generally there are two subjects that you are not supposed to discuss in polite company, politics and religion. I mean, take a look at this site. Hell, we are removed from one another by hundreds and thousands of miles, yet, the discussions get heated. Can you imagine what they'd be like face-to-face?

I personally like to discuss the issues, but if someone is just trying to "disprove" what I believe, I really have nothing to say to them because no matter what I say, in their mind, they will still be "right."

Originally posted by ixiy
Let consider who has more to lose.

Both sides have an equal amount of of investment. If the theist are incorrect then there's no reason to life and no reward/punishment in an afterlife that doesn't exist. If the Atheist are wrong, then they could possibly end up punished for thier denial. The Atheist really have more to lose since the Theist is a fail-safe point of view and they are covered either way, right or wrong.

Very interesting conversation, everyone, thanks for joining me.

Dbates, your point assumes that only one particular version of the afterlife is valid, which leads me back to part of my original point that religion is subjective.

What about Hindus and Buddhists, who believe in reincarnation -- their value system doesn't preclude anyone for lack of belief in their own system, they think that everyone is reincarnated after death.

I can't offhand think of any other subject that debates the unprovable and gets people so upset on all sides. Politics has, at least, some physical existence that can be quantified. Religion does not, it is all belief -- faith.

Maybe I better read some more Dawkins before I try to explain myself further.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
What about Hindus and Buddhists, ... they think that everyone is reincarnated after death.

In that case a religion such as Christianity still triumphs since it's equally correct. Plus, following a moral code such as one in Christianity would surely help you reach the next level of reincarnation. The Hindu and Buddhist do not find themself in the same situation if incorrect.

See, it's not as subjective as you first thought, but I'm happy as long as you are still thinking. Even if you asked me to baptize you in the Jordan river (how dirty that must be) as a new Christian convert, I would expect you to still think for yourself.

Do you believe then that only mono-theist religions such as Christianity and Islam are abrasive?

No, I don't actually.

I know I come across as VERY anti-religion, but in all seriousness, I don't care what people believe.

However, there are extremely violent fundamentalists of all sorts of religious ideology in the world. On the one end of the extreme spectrum is the smug assertion that I'm going to hell because I don't believe what they do, on the other end, suicide bombers and kool-aid suicides.

I am also extremely concerned that a seemingly great number of religious people in this country have hijacked the government and are trying to use it to shove their own personal belief systems and morality down everyone else's throat. I find that to be terribly offensive.

I admit I AM very puzzled trying to understand how people can believe in the unbelievable, yes, but that's not my main issue with religion and the religious.

My issue is mainly with the virulent HATE that comes from certain sects of certain major religions.

I have several Christians on my friends list here, and I respect them for being true to themselves and not getting upset with me for questioning why they believe. There are others here that I am at constant loggerheads with -- and the attitudes of some of these latter folk are what I want to debate with.

Some people are just so "in your face" and offensive with how they phrase their beliefs, that I feel I need to jump in and reflect some of their attitude back at them, from the opposite viewpoint.

why don't people want to disucss religion? fear. it's just fear. they're afraid to discuss something that they're relatively ignorant about. a recent study showed that something like 30% of christians think that noah was married to joan of arc. that's too easy, isn't it? the punchline is already there.

the whole deal is that most people don't even know the first thing about their own religion and they haven't read their own holy book. the second the discussion comes up they're left in the dark defending a faith that they profess primarily because of birth and upbringing.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I am also extremely concerned that a seemingly great number of religious people in this country have hijacked the government and are trying to use it to shove their own personal belief systems and morality down everyone else's throat.

If by this country you mean the U.S.A. then it used to be much more religious than it is today. The trend is actually slipping towards less religion in the public realm. Nearly all major colleges were founded as religious institutions, yet today are completely secular. We've recently outlawed publicly led prayer in schools and school events. There's no way that Roe Vs. Wade would have made it through the court system years ago. I think that the religious right is just trying to hold on to what they used to have. Some of them do it in an offensive manner, but they're not making any head-way.

I have several Christians on my friends list here, and I respect them for being true to themselves and not getting upset with me for questioning why they believe. There are others here that I am at constant loggerheads with

Hopefully I'm not one of the loggerheads. While I feel strongly about my beliefs I don't have the illusion that I can convince anyone that doesn't want to be convinced. I think one point that you are missing is that some people are just loggerheads and aggressive. Becoming a Christian doesn't zap you and change your personality or free will. Christians still struggle with personal issues and as a result they come off looking like idiots. They're a random sampling of the population and I think you'll find the same ratio of idiots and loggerheads in the Atheist crowd. People are people.

The problem is that the discussion is very unfair to the theists. The non-theists have by far the better position in the argument. The theists declare the existence of a god and the metaphysical world. The non-theists merely have to ask, "can you give me some proof?"

Since there is no physical world proof for a metaphysical construct, the theist is in an untenable position. Their only recourse is to claim belief by faith. Some of the more extreme say they will pray for the other person, or that the other person will go to hell if s/he doesn't believe.

I can't blame the theists for refusing to discuss or argue since that presupposes the need for evidence and logic.

Of course, the theists will also make flat statements such as "Jesus delivers." That's meaningless to me and without any evidentiary basis.

Thank you, MMF, for asking the question. I had never before analyzed why such discussions were so uniformly unproductive.

Occam

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

What about Hindus and Buddhists, who believe in reincarnation -- their value system doesn't preclude anyone for lack of belief in their own system, they think that everyone is reincarnated after death.

Well, i know Hindus believe if you are bad in this life, you will receive bad karma in the next. Ever heard of the "untouchables?" Well they basically believe the untouchables did something f***** up in their past life.

As for the Buddhists, they are trying to escape from being reincarnated into this life again, which should tell you something about what they think of this life. Read up on The four Noble truths and The Noble Eightfold Path.



[edit on 7-6-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
a recent study showed that something like 30% of christians think that noah was married to joan of arc. that's too easy, isn't it?

And where did you find this "study?" stupidignorantchristians.com?



[edit on 7-6-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
And where did you find this "study?" stupidignorantchristians.com?

no, i think it was one of the front page stories of fark.
it was in the washington monthly

and i was wrong, it was only 10%
findarticles.com...

it just shows that america lacks religious literacy... except it's found in abundance in the non-religious.

I think much of the reason is this, people believe in heaven and hell they believe they are going to heaven and have a very pleasant image in their heads and have made up their minds it's the truth and nothing can change that.

another reason is.. It is difficult to listen to people with different views than your own because you just might change your mind. Scary stuff eh

Originally posted by ixiy
Atheist, their science. (no big deal in my opinion.)
Theist, their God.

Ouch.

No, no, no, no! WHY is there such an absurd grouping? WHO started this strange division? It makes no sense!

I don't understand why the lines were drawn this way. I mean, "Athiests have science, Theists have God": It's completely ridiculuous. Who started this? The atheists who wanted to cement their position as the "sane and proper thinking people", or the wayward theists who attacked something they knew nothing about? I realise that perhaps 600 years ago Christianity may have felt like fighting against science because they seemed threatened by it, but which Christian today would accept that Christianity 600 years ago was "true"?

Aside from the very small portion (From both sides of the camp. Hell, I've seen "atheists" who maintain their superior and more empirical position, while at the same time belittling theists with faulty scientific information. Hilarious!) who are generally too ignorant to know much about science, I can't imagine why anyone would say that they "Choose science over God". It's all very well to say that God created everything, but if we just left it at that, the world would not have progressed at all. The fact that God set up this whole, huge, beautiful, incredible, complex, interconnected universe should strengthen the beliefs of theists, instead of giving them the need to ignore it. You might disbelieve certain theories, but you can't deny science! Theists may take into account and be open to a great deal more than scientific and empirical thought, but they shouldn't exclude scientific and empirical thought. Myself, for example, believing totally in God, while marvelling, and enjoying the "truth" that science has to offer.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I can't offhand think of any other subject that debates the unprovable and gets people so upset on all sides.

I think you just answered your own question.

Originally posted by dbates
Both sides have an equal amount of of investment. If the theist are incorrect then there's no reason to life and no reward/punishment in an afterlife that doesn't exist. If the Atheist are wrong, then they could possibly end up punished for thier denial. The Atheist really have more to lose since the Theist is a fail-safe point of view and they are covered either way, right or wrong.

How about a sure fail-safe in the afterlife? Worship/practice all religions.... I think most religions have a problem with that as well, they don't like to share follwers with others.......

Well, who says it's "undebateable"? I don't think it is, at all. The reason few want to debate it is because it's an exercise in futility to think you're ever going to change anyone's mind, and the end result is invariably harsh words and hurt feelings.

You start off with two people of opposite beliefs, each of whom normally begins with the position "I'm absolutely certain I'm right". It doesn't take long for the frustration factor to set in. When you're "absolutely certain" and you hit disagreement, either blood pressure will rise, or someone, in a defense mechanism effort to not get po'd will get dismissive. Which generally causes the other person to get even angrier. Not exclusive to the religion topic. I see the exact same thing frequently in the UFO/Alien forum.

Each side thinks the other is blind from birth and can't understand how the other can have the unmitigated effrontery to debate the colors of the rainbow with any degree of confidence or authority.



Fun, ain't it?

I think it can be discussed, and debated, but somebody's going home crying. That's just the nature of the topic.

Originally posted by babloyi
No, no, no, no! WHY is there such an absurd grouping? WHO started this strange division? It makes no sense!

no, it makes complete sense
faith is the antithesis to reason

I don't understand why the lines were drawn this way. I mean, "Athiests have science, Theists have God": It's completely ridiculuous. Who started this? The atheists who wanted to cement their position as the "sane and proper thinking people", or the wayward theists who attacked something they knew nothing about?

i'm pretty sure it was someone who realized that atheists base their beliefs on reason and theists base it on faith
faith is something not found in science
reason is something found in science
atheists get science

I realise that perhaps 600 years ago Christianity may have felt like fighting against science because they seemed threatened by it, but which Christian today would accept that Christianity 600 years ago was "true"?

a shocking number....

Aside from the very small portion (From both sides of the camp. Hell, I've seen "atheists" who maintain their superior and more empirical position, while at the same time belittling theists with faulty scientific information. Hilarious!) who are generally too ignorant to know much about science,

were you aware that just over 50% of americans believe in creationism? that number jumps to over 60% if you ask americans if they believe "god had a hand in things"

that's not a small portion.

I can't imagine why anyone would say that they "Choose science over God". It's all very well to say that God created everything, but if we just left it at that, the world would not have progressed at all.

well, the entire concept of deities tend to fit into those areas in which we don't understand, the "gaps" in knowledge
where does lightning come from? zeus, thor

The fact that God set up this whole, huge, beautiful, incredible, complex, interconnected universe should strengthen the beliefs of theists, instead of giving them the need to ignore it.

but the issue is that... nothing set up this whole universe. there's nothing to point towards design

You might disbelieve certain theories, but you can't deny science!

but that's the problem. they disbelieve some of the most well-accepted scientific theories.

Theists may take into account and be open to a great deal more than scientific and empirical thought, but they shouldn't exclude scientific and empirical thought. Myself, for example, believing totally in God, while marvelling, and enjoying the "truth" that science has to offer.

but you can't look at the one truth that just flies in your face when you think scientifically. that being the lack of evidence for a deity