did anyone else catch this?

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
And I think you have it backwards: the universe is perfect and needs no creator. I don't understand how anyone can believe we were "poofed" into existence.

Well, that's basically the stance of most scientists. They claim that life is just an "accident." "Poof" and we're here. Scientists don't believe in a first cause. It's not theist who believe in the magical "poof" theory, it is the scientists that do.

[edit on 6-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, that's basically the stance of most scientists. They claim that life is just an "accident." "Poof" and we're here.

it's more of a gurgle... or whatever noise a protein based chemical reaction would make.

Scientists don't believe in a first cause.

yes they do, they just don't make it some omnipotent super-fairy.

It's not theist who believe in the magical "poof" theory, it is the scientists that do.

no, it's the scientists that DON'T. they (in a few years i will be able to say we on this one) use S C I E N C E. that's the opposite of magic, being that magic is imaginary and science is real.

at this moment you're being just as irrational as anyone that claims science is a religion

Anyone who thinks that the universe just popped into existence from some "bang" that occurred is, at least as far as I am concerned, entertaining some kind of "magical now you don't see it,now you do" type of thinking.

I think the universe has always existed. Just like theists think god always has.

But I don't need a cosmic watchmaker to have made the universe. It has always been. No god necessary.

The jury is out on the big bang anyway, it's not completely verified one way or another. But the evidence is overwhelming that the universe is so ancient we can't fathom it except abstractly. And to me, it's such a wonder of natural law, I don't need some guy to have made it. That's just hubris and egocentricism on our parts. Because we as humans need to feel important in all this infinity of existence, so we made up a god that thinks we're special, so that we can pat ourselves on the back for our specialness.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Anyone who thinks that the universe just popped into existence from some "bang" that occurred is, at least as far as I am concerned, entertaining some kind of "magical now you don't see it,now you do" type of thinking.

now this just shows that you completely misunderstand the big bang theory

it doesn't go: nothing, bang, everything
it goes: superdense singularity, singularity goes bang, everything spreads out from that one point

the universe existed before the big bang as a singularity, no astrophyscist would say that, at any point, NOTHING existed.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Anyone who thinks that the universe just popped into existence from some "bang" that occurred is, at least as far as I am concerned, entertaining some kind of "magical now you don't see it,now you do" type of thinking.

No one ever said the universe popped into existence from a bang, as already explained everything has always existed just not always in the same form. The big bang if it occurred which the evidence points to extremely likely, then it occurred using all the energy and matter that you see and don't see around you today.

Everything was here before the big bang, during and after the big bang, to put it in one theory, think of the big bang as a supernova on a universal size.

So, the universe has existed forever, eh? Ok... with that I believe I am going to graciously bow out of this conversation.

We've sort of strayed from the OP, but it's been my observation that madness just likes to argue. If he's shown to be wrong on any particular topic, he just switches topics and argues about that. Best of luck to all in denying ignorance.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
So, the universe has existed forever, eh? Ok... with that I believe I am going to graciously bow out of this conversation.

speak, it is supported by the first law of thermodynamics. matter cannot be created, it cannot be destroyed, so it has always been there.
same goes for energy
but then again matter and energy are interchangable so it is a given

and whitewave, i dont' think i'm the one that switched arguments here.
now, there was an interesting point earlier, god says that a & e would die the day they ate the fruit... but they died after over 900 years.

That whole day being a thousand years has been answered already. According to the bible (in too many places to look up tonight), the word "day" refers not only to a 24 hour period but to a forty-year period, a 1000-year period, an unspecified age or epoch. Take your pick. God said, "Eat of the fruit...you will surely die". They died.

I am endlessly fascinated by "god's" ability to counteract the physical laws of the universe he so lovingly and painstakingly designed in a week.

Nothing else can exist outside of natural law. The things we can't explain now, will someday be explained. And everything else is not necessary.

So, tell me, CAN god make a rock he cannot move?

Which is the correct answer:

1) Yes, he can.

that answer implies that even god is bound by some physical laws, which rules out omnipotence.

2) No, he can't.

That answer implies that god's powers are not limitless.

Why this overwhelming need to have some conscious entity to rule everything that is not bound by the laws of physics like every other thing in existence?

Oh, perhaps I've answered my question already -- nothing can exist outside of the natural world. Ergo, god being supernatural, i.e., outside of nature, means he does not exist.


[edit for punctuation disaster]

[edit on 6-6-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

MM, the better question is:

can god create a being greater and more powerful than god?

1: no

well, therefore god is rendered no longer omnipotent because we have found something that god cannot do.

2: yes

well, god is no longer omnipotent because there can be nothing more powerful than an omnipotent being

the very CONCEPT of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being creates a variety of paradoxes.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
So, tell me, CAN god make a rock he cannot move?

Which is the correct answer:

1) Yes, he can.

that answer implies that even god is bound by some physical laws, which rules out omnipotence.

2) No, he can't.

That answer implies that god's powers are not limitless.

Just like to say that if the answer is "no", then that means his power IS limitless

You are putting physical boundaries on a spiritual being. You might as well ask:

Could God microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it? (From The Simpsons).

God's power is infinite... this means that there is no such thing as a rock so big he cannot move it. Does that means his power is limitless? NO! It simply means that the size and mass of the rock is infinite.

For example:

Can God tell me the "Last Number"?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
MM, the better question is:

can god create a being greater and more powerful than god?

1: no

well, therefore god is rendered no longer omnipotent because we have found something that god cannot do.

2: yes

well, god is no longer omnipotent because there can be nothing more powerful than an omnipotent being

the very CONCEPT of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being creates a variety of paradoxes.

I like this question... ALOT!

First we need to remember that God is omnipotent, that means that He can do EVERYTHING? So the very idea of "EVERYTHING + 1" is ludicrous in itself. BUT...

My answer is "Yes". He can create a being more powerful than himself. It's rather quite simple.

We have YOU. Now stand up and yell "Sausage loves Lancelot". Now we currently have "YOU+1", you have now added something to the list of things you have done. You have always been able to do it, but just never done it. You are a new person, new experiences and you created it. You are now more empowered than you were before.

Any time God does something new, because He did it, that means He has just created a more powerful being.