BMW developed H engine, ready in 2008

BMW has developed Hydrogen car engine which can run on gas also, the commercial car should be available in 2008.

I don't know much about Water Car, Free Energy and whatever it is called. But it has been discussed many times in this forum.
What make me sick is the people keep on saying "You must input the same to get the same output", or other similar term. Law of energy conservation, etc.


Let me ask you.

- If I light up 1 liter petrol and it gives certain amount of burning energy, DO I NEED to put in that much energy in oder to get that amount of energy? - NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I just need a matches.

- Nuclear bomb can wipe out a city, do you need to put in that much energy in order to get that output? - NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



So, where is the Law of Energy Conservation? It is THERE!!!!!!!!!!

- Do you need to put in that much energy in order to create 1 liter of petrol? - YES!!!!!!!!!! you need to put in more!!!!!

- Do you need to put in that much energy to create uranium, plutonium to wipe out a city? - YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you need to put in more!!!


To use a material ( or energy resources ) is NOT the same as to create a material ( energy resources ).

So, where do these all energies come from? From mother Earth! People just need to mine it out from earth and use it. It is consider free! The petrol energy, the nuclear energy, the hydrogen energy, the wind, the heat, and the solar from SUN, and more.

We are not talking about CREATING wind, heat, energy, solar, nuclear and petrol, etc. It is about USING them.


Now, what is the cost of 1 liter petroleum to run a car for 10 km? and what is the cost of Hydrogen to run a car for 10 km?
And what is the pollution costs?
That would be the question!!!!!!!!!

So when we talk about alternative energy resources, please don't talk "INPUT = OUTPUT" it is IRRELEVANT! Wrong approach!


So, it is good to know Hydrogen car would be there, and perhaps some of you would like to make one in the garage. or wait for BMW, soon Europe cars will have Hydrogen, Japanese cars, hopefully Chinese are not into it, or else it will cost less than $1,000 for a car.

Let the American stick with their "INPUT=OUTPUT" things.


So, use HYDROGEN now before American sell HYDROGEN to you!!!!!!!!!!

i'm sorry. you don't seem to be making any sense?

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
i'm sorry. you don't seem to be making any sense?

OK good. I thought I was lost on my own here.

OP-- What exactly is it your trying to communicate here?

How about a link to the car?

Some of the inventors have displayed simple technology that performs the splitting of water into oxygen and hydrogen gas using minimal energy and fuss. One method used an electical device that vibrated the water at a certain frequency and the water divided easily. This takes much less energy than commonly known methods. The guy was in Australia I remember.

Links?, why not just Yahoo-ing yourself?

Ok, here we go.

A hydrogen-powered MINI concept was unveiled at the 2001 Frankfurt Motor Show. It runs solely on hydrogen and shows the potential for a virtually zero emissions vehicle which still offers outstanding performance in an affordable package.

The hydrogen-powered MINI features a possible new injection process in which super-cooled liquid hydrogen is injected into the intake ducts where it mixes with air before entering the cylinders for ignition. Previously, the liquid hydrogen was heated to ambient temperature before combustion. This super-cooled mixture increases the cylinder charge, boosting both engine output and efficiency and offers a hydrogen engine that has the potential to match the standards of a modern petrol engine in every respect.

The car also features a breakthrough in alternative fuel packaging with a fuel tank that takes up the same space as a conventional fuel tank. To date, cylindrical tanks had to be used which take up passenger or luggage space.

And this!

BMW Hydrogen Car!



The point is, there are so many people can't accept it. ( perhaps they work for oil company ). They keep on saying " You can NOT get more output than what you input". It is not input>output, it is USING hydrogen!

[edit on 14-5-2007 by kontol]

[edit on 14-5-2007 by kontol]

When you make a thread about a specific something, in this case a car, at ATS we prefer and expect you to offer 1. the article 2. something from the article 3. link to the article. Pictures are a nice addon. Do not always just assume someone will Google key words from your threads. They won't.

As for the actual topic..

Has there been any research into the ADVERSE effects of Hydrogen cars?

Example. Large amounts of water producing cars, in say LA, instead of smog.. will it be fog? Accelerated humidity? How much water is produced as a by product?

Originally posted by Rockpuck


As for the actual topic..

Has there been any research into the ADVERSE effects of Hydrogen cars?

Example. Large amounts of water producing cars, in say LA, instead of smog.. will it be fog? Accelerated humidity? How much water is produced as a by product?

I don't know. Has there been any research on Petrol? How much smog, pollution and health issue? When human started to burn oil in the late century, did they ever research the cause of war in middle-east?

Accelerated humidity is much better than oily and greasy smoke from petrol. By the way, human just can't create any much more humid than the SUN!
I can't imagine how much water vapourized every second on the seas, rivers, and on everywhere. One can simply guess, the humidity caused by human when all people in the world are using Hydrogen energy will be eventually less than .001% of the humidity created by nature.

The costs of oil mining is huge due to explorations, drilling, pumping, and transportation ( which needs to burn oil also ). Not to mention the costs of dumping site and other environmental issues. Psychological costs such as control, greeds, fear of running out of energy, which leads to war, etc.


Anyway, the point is " It is not about INPUT > OUTPUT, it is about using Hydrogen. It is not about creating Hydrogen, but using Hydrogen energy ".

Wow.



Welcome to ATS.

*sigh*

Here's a better page of BMW's... advertising... on it (though they don't say it's coming in 2008 on this page.) They do talk about some of the problems (there will be an issue trying to find fueling stations, for example, and the first ones may be owned by municipalities and not driven outside the city.) Also mentioned is the nitrogen oxide problem:
www.bmwworld.com...

Apparently one version of it is being leased to the US government this year:
www.caranddriver.com...

One question........ where do you propose we get the hydrogen from?

Splitting it from water takes alot of energy. That is the input- output problem you seem to wish to overlook. Hydrogen is not something you can simply pick up with a bucket and pour into your car. You have to make it. You have to pressurise it. You have to store and transport it. You have to transfer it into your car. All this takes energy. Making it takes ALOT of energy.

So... Where do you propose we get it from that will be energy or cost effective???

Commercial production of Hydrogen as fuel is done by steam reforming of Natural Gas.

Hydrogen power is not free. In fact it costs more than just burning the natural gas......

Originally posted by Terapin
One question........ where do you propose we get the hydrogen from?

Splitting it from water takes alot of energy. That is the input- output problem you seem to wish to overlook. Hydrogen is not something you can simply pick up with a bucket and pour into your car. You have to make it. You have to pressurise it. You have to store and transport it. You have to transfer it into your car. All this takes energy. Making it takes ALOT of energy.

So... Where do you propose we get it from that will be energy or cost effective???

I don't know.

It is not input>output problem. It is not CREATING HYDROGEN, it is splitting H from somewhere, mostly H20. The hydrogen is there, it is not about creating a Hydrogen out of nowhere!
It is given by mother earth, just split it from something.

Think it this way, it takes energy to fission the uranium nuclear to make nuke. But it doesn't take that whole lot explosion energy to make a nuke!

True, you have to PROCESS, STORE, and TRANSPORT. I don't know how much the cost would be. But when things are massively produced, the costs will be lowered. Water is available everywhere, except in dessert.
Even though if the costs of H is higher than oil, it is worth considering. Less pollution, less fear of running out of energy, less of greeds, and less of wars!

In other words, I would humbly guess, the overall costs would be much cheaper than fear of running out of oil, war, pollutions, environmental issues created from Oil.
H will change the world! Thanks to mad scientists from early time.



Just what would happen to middle-east if this H is working? When:

- 1. They can no longer sell their oil
- 2. They have no water




Do we now understand why they are more terrorists recently? We are leaded to oil problems ( which is actually no longer a problem in sooner future ). Who lead us to these terrorists issues? Well, you can easily guess, American and the middle-easterner.
They just want to raise the oil price!!!! so they can save some money for future when they can no longer sell oil and have no water. American is always an opportunist taking out advantages from middle-easterner out of this issue.

Why American keep on banning nuclear plants, such as those one in Iran and North Korea? American just don't want to you to use alternative energy. They want you to use oil which they sell you, they want you to know the oil is running out, they want you fear of energy running out. THEY SELL YOU FEAR!!!!!!!!!!!


Back to H cars.

I hope soon other European car manufacturers, Japan, Chinese, Korean, will follow BMW steps and move to H cars, the more the merrier. The more the stronger. We all need to stand up together against American who sell us FEAR!

Originally posted by Malichai
Commercial production of Hydrogen as fuel is done by steam reforming of Natural Gas.

Hydrogen power is not free. In fact it costs more than just burning the natural gas......

Of course nothing is FREE. Free energy is just a term!

Where do you get your energy to live? It is not free! you have to BREATH and EAT! It costs!

Simple as that!



It is just about alternative, change the oil culture to something new, cleaner, greener, and peaceful. The H!

Have you calculated the costs of oil? From drilling to pump station?
H will have the same costs, production, storage, transportation, etc. But every country can produce it on its' own ( I don't know about dessert country which has no water ).
Every nations will no longer have to worry about running out of oil!

Bye bye America!

Originally posted by kontol

I hope soon other European car manufacturers, Japan, Chinese, Korean, will follow BMW steps and move to H cars, the more the merrier. The more the stronger. We all need to stand up together against American who sell us FEAR!

Ok. This is a bash Americans thread. Why did you not just say so, eh?

First off developing this technology requires financial sacrifices only the United States is prepared to underwrite.

Second - as you have chosen to ignore - You have to use more energy from traditional sources to create the Hydrogen than it takes to run a car in the first place.

Third - We are well on our way to controlling emissions and the negative impact of traditional fuels. It is the Third World Countries who will be doing all the polluting from now on. China will soon far surpass anything we have ever put in the air. Take a look at satellite images over Southern China and south of China. What you will see is the permanent brown cloud caused by backward countries burning wood for fuel. Whats your solution to that?

Fourth - We will end up being the ones who buy most of these cars. Other countries will have to tax Hydrogen Fuels heavily to make up for the taxes they will loose from the huge taxes you folks are paying on gasoline now. How much does gas cost in other countries with those high Socialistic Taxes????? 2, 3, 4 times what we pay???? It is all taxes is it not? To pay for the cradle to grave welfare?

Originally posted by kontol
It is just about alternative, change the oil culture to something new, cleaner, greener, and peaceful. The H!

Have you calculated the costs of oil? From drilling to pump station?
H will have the same costs, production, storage, transportation, etc. But every country can produce it on its' own ( I don't know about dessert country which has no water

).
Every nations will no longer have to worry about running out of oil!

H does and will cost far more. When you make H from water you have to input more energy than you get out. Plus you need to liquefy, transport, and store the highly cryogenic fuel in expensive containers. That energy will have to come from oil, nuclear, gas or some other electric source. Making it from Natural Gas is not saving energy.

H is not an energy source. It is an energy vehicle. You cannot pump it out of the ground, or gather it from the air. You have to make it with another energy source and along the way you consume far more energy than if you had simply burned the fuel in the car or plugged into in the wall socket.

H is not an energy vehicle solution. Ultra-Capacitors or some new battery technology are the solution.

H is a marketing ploy!

Originally posted by kontol

Originally posted by Malichai
Commercial production of Hydrogen as fuel is done by steam reforming of Natural Gas.

Hydrogen power is not free. In fact it costs more than just burning the natural gas......

Bye bye America!

where are all of these anti american trolls coming from????

Hydrogen Fueled Vehicle.. JUST NOW coming out from Bavarian Motor Works??? LOL....
Chevy had a hydrogen truck 3 years ago... car last year...(available to the public)

Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have had Hydrogen fueled vehicles in asia for 7 years... test cars for 10.... released in America 5 years ago....

the problem is the American Fuel companies (exxon-mobil, British Petroleum,
Citgo, Mapco, Etc) have spents Billions to keep there fueling stations petrol only...

Don't blame the American people for the fact our government sold us out to major corporations... It's only a matter of time until your country falls to the sway of the almighty*insert Currency name where you reside* and keeps its petrol stations...

(also interesting to note last 3 times I've been to Europe I've never seen a Hydrogen Fueling station; Yet I live in the capital of a southern state, and only have to drive 15 minutes to get to a hydrogen fueling station.)

Please use babelfish and translate from your native tongue to English...
I know I am not the only one who is having trouble understanding the details of your posts..

Also if your not America Bashing, sorry to jump the gun; But I don not take criticism for a leader and his idiot decisions when I did not vote for said leader.

Coven Out

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Wow.

Welcome to ATS.

*sigh*

*pats rock on the back*

Just walk away my friend, just walk away.

Every thing tells me to stop posting in this thread. But what the hey eh?

I don't know how much the cost would be. But when things are massively produced, the costs will be lowered.

True, yes, once companies begin competing for lower cost/sales...

However, there is no technology that can produce enough Hydrogen to meet the energy demands...

And quite simply, is gas is cheaper, gas will be used, not Hydrogen. Not to mention the insane prices for "clean cars" .. the cost you pay for the damn car will never = the amount saved in gas unless you keep it well past 7-10 years..

Water is available everywhere, except in dessert.

Ignorant. Water is not every where, infact, its rather rare any more .. The use of massive amount of fresh water in Hydrogen factories would make the cost of WATER actually go up! ... effecting the people at the pumps, and in the homes..

There is not enough clean water to be used for fuel...

Even though if the costs of H is higher than oil, it is worth considering. Less pollution, less fear of running out of energy, less of greeds, and less of wars!

Its worth considering, only in the fact that we can look at it as proof an alternative proof can "work" .. and then move on to find something "economical"

Oh, I think I walked into this thread at the wrong time. I get exactly what kontol is talking about. This isn’t a bash Americans thread, and should not be labeled as such. In fact, that term has been used far to liberally around here lately, like anyone who disagrees or does not understand the poster just labels them Anti-American.

Anyway, what this new member is saying is that although these ‘amazing hydrogen engines’ use clean energy and emit negligible emissions compared to conventional engines, there still remains the very environmentally-unfriendly process of MAKING the hydrogen fit for use in engines. E=MC² deals with the process of converting mass to energy, but what kontol is talking about is getting the mass in the first place.
Don’t abuse him/her just because you don’t properly understand what they are trying to say.

Denythestatusquo counters this argument relating specifically to hydrogen fuel production here:

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Some of the inventors have displayed simple technology that performs the splitting of water into oxygen and hydrogen gas using minimal energy and fuss. One method used an electical device that vibrated the water at a certain frequency and the water divided easily. This takes much less energy than commonly known methods. The guy was in Australia I remember.

But all in all, if the production of hydrogen fuel alone creates more pollution than the production and use of petroleum, then hydrogen is not the clean alternative that it has been made out to be, much like nuclear energy in the 50’s. That’s kontols point. Of course, if the production of hydrogen fuel is cheap and clean, then we should be using this element a lot more, and this car is a huge step forward.

Im way ahead of this post with my Water Car Post

fracture of water into 2H / O via electrolosis is economical with high frequency pulsed core rods properly spaced. 2 H2O into H2, H2 O2 actually

nay sayers and those who think its not possible still drive petrol.