Venezuela Pulling Out of IMF, World Bank

I do not understand people that say chavez is so wonderful.

Lets see, he was democratically elected, was deposed by malcontents,
was restored back to his democratically elected position of president,
has been elected by the majority of people since, enjoys the support of
all but the rich in his country, has helped low income Americans when
they otherwise would have been screwed because there own government
is more concerned about flawed neo-libertarian economic philosophies
and money rather than the welfare of its own citizens and has sent a blow
to the major oil industries.

Oh yes, he's just such a horrible person.

[edit on 5/2/2007 by iori_komei]

Another great thread, especially as it fractures into interesting sub-topics...all related...all germane.

As a concerned investor, I was recently posting on another board regarding the dark under-belly of the resource sector. Exploited countries...exploited cultures...exploited children. Adolescent 'artisanal miners' (indigenous)...mucking the rivers, and mines of the Third World for scraps...hoping just to survive, while dodging government thugs & bullets. Happens everyday...somewhere in corrupt IMF supported countries...in Africa, Indonesia, but not so often anymore in countries like Venezuela, Bolivia, and more recently Ecuador. It's not mere coincidence that the IMF & World Bank have been losing their footing in these Latin Block countries.

It's impossible to divorce the popularity of men like Chavez, Morales, and now Correa...from the many years of poverty and suffering that surround almost every drop of oil, and every oz. of ore surrendered for profit to foreign interests. The 'leftist' movement in Latin America has to be viewed in it's historical context...independent...non-xenophobic thought required...that's the hard part for the West.

As suggested by RedGolem, listen to the words, and weigh the experience of people like John Perkins...he understands the activities of the World Bank in Latin America, and elsewhere, from the inside. The video links RedG posted shouldn't be missed...part 2 being the most pertinent imo.

Unless we learn to play well with others...The Axis of Oil...Russia, Iran, and Venezuela could eventually be the straw that breaks the US Dollar...but that's another story.


Peace &
Good Fortune
OBE1

Originally posted by iori_komei

Lets see, he was democratically elected, was deposed by malcontents,
was restored back to his democratically elected position of president,
has been elected by the majority of people since, enjoys the support of
all but the rich in his country, has helped low income Americans when
they otherwise would have been screwed because there own government
is more concerned about flawed neo-libertarian economic philosophies
and money rather than the welfare of its own citizens and has sent a blow
to the major oil industries.

Oh yes, he's just such a horrible person.

wow...humm.. are you Chavez's director of communications?...

The people which you refer to as "malcontents" number in the millions and most of them are poor or middle class... They are as many if not more than the so called "Chavistas"...and the numbers seen in demonstrations against Chavez show totally the oposite to your false claims...

Let's see first one of the most recent opposition protests against Chavez and see what the numbers tell us..

CARACAS, Venezuela (Map, News) - Venezuelans marched Saturday amid heavy security in the opposition's largest show of support yet for a television station targeted by President Hugo Chavez, whom they accuse of suppressing freedom of speech and democratic rights.

Thousands of people turned out for the protest against Chavez's decision to remove Radio Caracas Television, or RCTV, the country's oldest private TV station, from the airwaves.

Hundreds of Chavez supporters in red caps and T-shirts mounted a rival gathering nearby backing the government's decision not to renew the license of RCTV, which they accuse of backing a 2002 coup that briefly ousted Chavez.

"Democracy is being lost in Venezuela," said Pablo Mosco, a 72-year-old retiree from Catia, a vast slum in western Caracas, who opposes the station's closing.

www.examiner.com...

So thousands of Venezuelans protest against one of Chavez's latest decision and his supporters can only call on a few hundreds to counter this protest?....

Anyways...lets see again some of those people which iori_komei claim are the rich in Venezuela who have been protesting against Chavez.....

Thousands demonstrate in Caracas against Chavez

Last Updated: Sunday, December 29, 2002 | 4:58 PM ET
CBC News

Venezuelans took to the streets of the capital by the tens of thousands on Sunday in the latest mass demonstration aimed at forcing President Hugo Chavez out of power.
The Caracas protest was only the latest in a series of similar demonstrations since a nationwide strike began on Dec. 2.

www.cbc.ca...

That link is from 2002, there is one picture where you can see some of the people in that protest.

Let's see one of Chavez most enlightening quotes and see what he thinks about freedom of speech...

In some cases non-violence requires more militancy than violence.
Cesar Chavez

www.brainyquote.com...

Chavez doesn't want what is happening in Venezuela to get out.

General Efrain Vasquez said he could no longer be loyal to Mr Chavez following what he described as attacks on the Venezuelan people.

Earlier 10 senior officers announced they were setting up a parallel high command, while the head of the National Guard proposed the immediate formation of a provisional government.
................
Correspondents say there is an uneasy calm on the streets of Caracas which on Thursday saw pitched battles between police and protesters when more than 150,000 people marched on the presidential palace demanding the president's resignation.

As violence erupted, Mr Chavez ordered troops to surround the palace and suspended the broadcasts of five private television stations in Caracas on the grounds that they were inciting people to violence.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Here is another of Chavez famous quotes, where he says noone and nothing can stop what he has in mind for Venezuela.

Addressing the newly elected Constituent Assembly in early August, Chavez called for the assembly to assume emergency powers that would supersede the authority of the nation's present executive, legislative, and judicial branches. "What is occurring is a revolution, and it will be futile to try to avoid it; Venezuela is being reborn from the ashes, and no one can stop it," he told the assembly.

www.worldpress.org...

Here is what has happened to "freedom of speech" in Venezuela.

Yesterday, the Venezuelan National Assembly approved the changes to the new penal code. These changes criminalize dissent, criticism and any activity against Government officials by individuals. In the case of criticism of President Chavez, it is a criminal offense to “offend” the President either publicly or in private.

burtonterrace.blogspot.com...

Here is another source which corroborates what has happened to freedom of speech in Venezuela under Chavez.

CARACAS, Venezuela - A new penal code approved by Venezuela's Congress would stiffen prison sentences for slander and libel, drawing criticism from opponents of President Hugo Chavez.

Chavez's foes said the new rules were an attempt to stifle dissent.

The changes are ``incompatible with freedom of expression,'' said Alberto Arteaga, a law professor at Venezuela's Central University who often defends opposition politicians in court.

news.bostonherald.com...

BTW, here is a recording, in spanish, of Chavez giving the order to activate the Avila plan during the April 11th 2002 when 500,000 to some reports say up to a million Venezuelans took to the streets to protest against Chavez.

The Avila plan has been used in the past and it is permission to deploy the military to supress civilians with tanks and troops and the liberty of the troops to shoot at protesters.

www.urru.org...

That day alone 19-20 Venezuelans were shot dead, and 80-100 other Venezuelans were injured from shots they recieved from the Chavistas and the Venezuelan soldiers who followed Chavez's orders. The next two days it is said that from 300-1,000 Venezuelans in total were killed.

The above is proof from Chavez's mouth that he implemented the Avila plan, which then led to the murder and injuries of many Venezuelans.

That was the event which made generals who were up to that day supporters of Chavez ask him to leave the country for what he had done.

General Manuel Rosendo, up to then a symbol of loyalty to Chavez was present at a meeting a few days earlier when Chavez talked about using violence agaisnt his fellow citizens. Not only that, but on the 11th. Chavez activated the Plan Avila a military plan to repress the Venezuelan population. It was out of a sense of decency that all of these Generals decided to ask Chavez to leave. It was also out of a sense of decency that nothing happened to Chavez that day. He asked to be taken to Cuba, which some of these same Generals refused to, because they thought there should be justice for those that had died that day. Not one person threatened Chavez those days, despite the fantasies that he has now told so many times that he appears to belive them himself..

The rest, as they say, is history. After that, there may have been three or four coups and counter coups, as ambition and greed made friends of enemies and enemies of friends. The same Generals that thought that Chavez should leave, felt that the solution was worse than the problem. Mediocre Pedro Carmona somehow took over and showed that he was as much of an autocrat as Chavez is. Some important current figures of the Chavez administration, barely protested at the time. The President of the Venezuelan Supreme Court Ivan Rincon even offered his name as a possible temporary President. Jose Vicente Rangel, today the VP, went home and said that he would go back to being a newspaper reporter. Infamous "three sun" General Rincon tried to arrange for Chavez' flight to Cuba from the La Carlota airport in Caracas after which he also went home quietly. The word coup was not used for a couple of months after the fateful events of April 2002. The formation of a truth commission to investigate the events was called by all sides, but blocked by the current Government. It would have revealed the lack of scruples of Chavez and his cohorts. The same lack of scruples that they use daily to express their love for the poor while they buy weapons, get rich and throw away the country's money.

But, yes, that day, April 11th. 2002 a group of Venezuelans, who were then considered to be both pro and against Chavez prevailed out of their sense of decency for their fellow countrymen and out of outrage for an immoral President. Unfortunately, since then, decency is defeated daily in Venezuela. And the President has not changed. .

Excerpted from.
blogs.salon.com...

Some of Chavez supporters which were captured on video as they opened fire against the protestors were never put in prison and there were no investigations as to who were these people, even though in the video you can see among those people that there were gunmen which had the "red cap" which the Chavistas use...

In that video the faces of some of the shooters is clearly seen, yet the govenrment of Chavez did not conduct any investigation nor arrested anyone of those caught on video.

You obviously missed pai mei's video link...and maybe read up on the CIA's involvement in the 2002 coup...takes a little time, but fascinating stuff


Peace &
Good Fortune
OBE1

(continued)

More proof that most of Chavez, and the Chavistas claims are lies.

About the 1.5 million people in Venezuela who supposedly are not illeterate anymore because of Chavez...

Indeed, there is little evidence that the Venezuelan government is even trying to do anything different from its predecessors: The share of social spending in relation to total public spending, currently at 40.6 percent, is almost identical to the level reached during the period of application of free market reforms in 1992-93 (40.1 percent).
............................
Given the extensive academic literature documenting the very low success rates of large-scale literacy programs, one would have expected a little more skepticism. Even a cursory look at the government’s figures will reveal deep inconsistencies in the official story. For starters, it seems awfully difficult to teach 1.5 million people how to read and write given that, according to the 2001 census, there were only 1.08 million illiterate persons in Venezuela. Indeed, the number of illiterate Venezuelans has never exceeded 1.5 million adults since the nation started collecting statistics in 1936. The government also claimed to have mobilized 1.8 percent of the country’s labor force as paid trainers in the program. The problem is that official employment statistics show no evidence that these trainers were ever employed and official budget figures show no evidence that they were ever paid.
.....................
According to our estimates, in the second half of 2005—the first period after the government declaration regarding the eradication of illiteracy—there were still 1,014,441 illiterate Venezuelans over age 15, only slightly less than the 1,107,793 illiterate people registered during the first half of 2003 (before Robinson began). The statistical analysis carried out in our paper shows that most of this absolute decline in the number of illiterate Venezuelans can be traced to changes in the age structure rather than to any effect of the government’s literacy program.

www.independent.org...

Here is a copy of the video which was shot in April 11th 2002 and which shows the demonstration against Chavez that day and what happened after Chavez activated the Avila plan.

WARNING, THERE ARE PARTS IN THIS VIDEO THAT SHOW PEOPLE BEING SHOT IN THE HEAD DURING THAT DAY.!!!

video.google.com...

You can also see in that video that the Venezuelans who went to protest include many mixed races, noit only white people and shows that some people are lying when they claim the "oposition is just composed of the rich"....

Since the video is in Spanish i will translate some of what is said in the video. Anyone that speaks spanish can corroborate what I am saying, which normally the spanish speaking members who are in favor of Chavez dissapear when i show these videos and I ask them to prove this is not true.

Anyone who is actually interested to see what has been happening in Venezuela under Chavez should watch that video, even though most of it is in spanish, the images speak for themselves.

The first event that day was this demosntration against Chavez in which around 500,000-800,000 and some sources state that up to a million or more Venezuelans took to the streets. Later that day Chavez implemented the Avila plan and the demonstrators were shot at by chavistas and soldiers which followed Chavez's orders.

The activation of Chavez of the Avila plan is what made generals who were supporters of Chavez to ask him to leave his post for what he had done. You also see some of Chavez supporters talk in a loud speaker claiming the demonstrators who are against Chavez had left, but in fact the mayority of the people in that demonstration were marching and protesting against Chavez saying "afuera Chavez" (Get out Chavez) "Vete a cuba" (Go to live to Cuba) "El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido" (The people united, will never be defeated), later on you aslo hear in the video the cahnting of "SOB" as a reference to Chavez, etc.

Then you star seeing violence at around 1:45 pm or so, as more of the Chavistas take to the streets and together with some soldiers shot tear gas canisters towards the demonstrators. You can also see some of the demonstrators had to be carried out because they were injured.

At around 3:45 pm Chavez makes it to the airways and calls on the Venezuelans that were demonstrating against him to go to their homes. He claims, like some other people around here, that the demonstrators were only a minority that don't want to accept him, despite the fact that we can see in the video from the start of the demonstration that there were hundreds of thousands if not a million Venezuelans in that protest who wanted Chavez out....

In the video you can see that the demonstration was so big that several parts of the capital were full of the Venezuelans protesting and asking for the resignation of Chavez...yet some people want to claim these were only a few....

Only after a few hours of the police, military and Chavistas throwing tear gas, shooting at people and attacking people in the demonstration do some Venezuelans start fighting back throwing the tear gas cans back at the military, etc.

At around 12:28, you see people on the floor who were shot in the head. The two appear to be undercover detectives, one of the police officers apparently says "these SOB are something" and the police officers show identifications which shows the two men were undercover detectives. Apparently the police shot them.

At 15:41 you see a young man walking away towards the right and dropping to the floor as you ehar shots being fired, and then see he was hit by at least one bullet in the cest and he slowly dies meanwhile at the same time in the background you hear Chavez claiming that he is working for the people, and there is democracy in Venezuela...

You can also see in the video that the mayority of police officers o not open fire, it is just some whoa re doing so and the Chavistas..

At around 16:45 you see another man, who was a reporter is shot in the head and he drops dead in the spot, meanwhile in the background Chavez is talking about a group of Evangelicals who he saw the other day praying, and he went to them to pray with them..

Then at 16:57 a woman in yellow who was approaching to see what had happened to the reporter drops back with her hand in her head as she is also shot in the head.

This shows there were snipers who began shooting at the protesters in the head and chest.

Then more and more you see parts of the video showing people who were shot, all because they were protesting against Chavez...

Then at 17:20 a man begins speaking and you can feel the pain in his voice, he says seeing what Chavez has done to the people gives him pain, and he asks if Chavez is not ashamed of doing that to his people as he shows blood he has in his hand from someone who was shot and he apparently had helped.

Then right after that Chavez keeps talking that Venezuelans have to accept the changes that he is bringing...

Chavez also claims in that part of the video that the people can ask for anyone in power to leave office, and it will be done, then they give the interiew of a man who says he saw as a young man was hit in the head and he dropped dead to the floor and you can see the hole in the wall where the shot ended.

Then another man is seen in the floor dead with the Venezuelan flag on his head, one of the other demonstrators who was shot in the head by a sniper, and several people call for justice for what was done that day.

Right then Chavez says that the demonstrations in the streets cannot be accepted, after he was claiming a couple hours before that people could demonstrate in peace if they wanted...

Then at 20:20 one man starts saying through a loudspeaker "This is an attack on the people, enough is enough, we are the mayority, we are millions, stop shooting at us, stop attacking us"

then a man that is close to the one with the loudspeaker jumps and then you can see someone had attempted to shoot him in the head, as there is a view on the right side of his face where a bullet had just razed the side of his temple and his ear.

At 20:56 you see one of the police officers shooting his gun at what was surely a group of people, and before that another police officer throws a stone at the reporter who was filming the video.

At 21:00 it is apparent Chavez knows thelarge group of Venezuelans are marching towards the palace, and he says he doesn't know what they think they are doing by trying to go there. He says those people are crazy and he hopes a ray of "knowledge"... hit them in the head so they can become more sensible...

Then at 21:22 minutes you see one of the group of Chavistas who are stationed in one of the streets that goes above the main streets and are hiding behind buildings, some of them you see from time to time shooting, and it is here that you can see that appart from some in the police and military who were shooting at people, Chavistas with "red caps" shoot at the masses of demonstrators...

Apparently it is about this time that more and more police officers start opening fire against the demonstrators. At 21:50 or so you begin to see groups of police shooting at the people.

At 23:20 Chavez says the demonstration is not going to accomplish anything, and that they (the government) ahve measures to deal with such a demonstration, while on the background the violence has increased.

you can also see that among the groups of people shooting there are some who wear proudly the red cap of the "Chavistas".


[edit on 2-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by OBE1
You obviously missed pai mei's video link...and maybe read up on the CIA's involvement in the 2002 coup...takes a little time, but fascinating stuff

Apparently you haven't seen what the Venezuelans were saying. Watch the video i gave, and the translations I gave.

The demonstration was done by hundreds of thousands if not a million Venezuelans... but of course some have to claim the contrary despite what the video shows.

Also;
the CIA Factbook states,

Venezuela (8.00 N, 66.0 W.)
democratically elected governments have held sway since 1959.
Hugo Chavez, President since 1999,
has promoted a controversal policy of 'democratic socialism'
which purports to alleviate social ills while at the same time attacking globaliztion...


personal note beyond the CIA factbook, Chavez is creating an alternative to US hegemony in S.A.,
much like Iran is seeking to become a regional power.
Chavez however is not sponsering Hezbollah's in other countries,

He is reconsolidating his territorial resources such the Tar like oil reserves,
the gold, mineral, diamond mining resources in Venezuela that have
deteoriated the lives of the indigenous peoples for the profits of the forces
networked with the IMF & WorldBank..........
who, like an army of leaf-cutter ants.. strip the countryside and leave desolation behind until time & nature heal the rape of the land.
Chavez, is unwelcome inthe eyes of the globalists and corporate-America,
& he will be demonized to be sure, & it will all sound so 'right'

But, without some sort of covert influence, President Chavez will hold office
until the next Venezuela Presidential election..... in December 2012
(is that an omen or what)



[edit on 2-5-2007 by St Udio]

Anyways, continuation as to what happened that day...

At 25:21 chavez says there are TV channels they cut from the air, and you can see as a woman reporter who was reporting what was happening was cut off, and a Venezuelan in the background says "they cut off channel 4 from the airwaves".

Then Chavez says channel 2, 4 and 10 were cut from the air and he doens't know how long they will be off the air. Democracy at work huh?...

At 26:10 another man in a loudspeaker is saying that police officers are continuing to shoot at people.

At 26:48 again you see a group of civilians shooting, and among them there are two with the red caps of the Chavistas looking at those being shot and being right beside the shooters.

At 27:51 in specific from the same group of people one of the Chavistas weaing a red cap starts shooting at people.

That is the proof that it was the chavistas alongside with some of the police and some military who were shooting at the demonstrators.

At 28:18 meanwhile Chavez is claiming the group of people are not going to succed in getting him out of the government, a man in a loudspeaker is saying "we are the mayority of the people, we can't permit that this tyranny continues killing our people" then another man yells in another loudspeaker "He is not going to stop us, he is not going to stop us".

At 30:49 another man begs Chavez to leave, that he (Chavez) should leave the people in peace.

At 32:20 Chavez claims he has asked the military, the police and those people who follow him not to resort to violence, despite the fact that we see the contrary in the video, and in the audio file i gave earlier we can hear Chavez himself activate the Avila plan.

At 33:00 more Venezuelans speak out, one of them saying they are the people and where is the military, that the military are there for the people and they are being shot at. Another says "you are killing your people" refering to Chavez.

At 33:40 or so chavez starts saying that there are 1,000 special police to protec the prsident in the palace, and there are thousands more around the palace, that he doesn't know what the demonstrators are trying to accomplish...

Obviously he is getting worried as he gets news that the demonstrators are getting closer, and they by far outnumber the police, the military and the Chavistas, and keep advancing even when several demonstrators were murdered, and injured. But he claims that protection is not for him...

34:04 a young woman is shown on the floor which is apparently dead with her eyes open, a group fo two Venezuelans close by show a casing of a bullet and ask to the camera "this is what you want for your people Chavez, this is what you want?" "They are shooting at the people" "is this what you wanted Chavez?"

At 34:50 another man says "the people were demonstrating in peace, and Chavez has send the guards to shoot at the people".

36:24 another dead man is shown and a couple of people say "Chavez this is what you are doing" another says "snipers are shooting in the head"...

37:04 a Venezuelan says "we call for the international community to step in, do not let the people get killed, we came in peace to protest, and what we recieved is the democratic response of the government". Of course it is a sarcastic comment as people are getting killed, they are getting beaten to death. the the camera shows another man who was shot with a shotgun which hit part of his face, and another dead who was shot in the head.

36:40 Chavez claims that except for some small demosntrations in the capital, and in some places, there are no alterations more than any other country such as Venezuela.....

38:00 you see several police officers in motorcycles shooting at the people, and at buildings.

Chavez continues saying people should be calm, the situation is not grave and that people should go back to their normal life and retunr towork in the morning....

That's what democracy means to Chavez, and don't give me that crap the same thing is happening in the U.S. when it is not..

Show me where Americans are shot in the head or the chest for protesting.....

So St Udio...what do you have to say as to what the people are saying in that video i gave... so the 500,000-1,000,000 Venezuelans were all "CIA operatives"?.... Isn't this a place to "deny ignorance"?... Why do some people "embrace ignorance in light of evidence which clearly shows the contrary?....

[edit on 2-5-2007 by Muaddib]

Muaddib watch this video of the coup from 2001 :

video.google.com...

Chavez did not order anybody to shoot. People who were on the streets demonstrating for Chavez were shot in the head - yes there were snipers trying to start a confrontation, they did not shoot at people who protested against Chavez.
You will see how the media controlled by the opposition lied about everything

[edit on 2-5-2007 by pai mei]

Forget about it folks.
Once Muaddib has made up his mind about something there is no changing it.

For those who want to discuss the events of the coup and protests there is already an ATS thread about it here: www.abovetopsecret.com... (I suspect "someone" has not bothered to take the time to watch the entire documentary discussed there )

Anyone wanting to debunk what the film "the Revolution Will Not Be Televised" clearly shows for all the world to see should go there to channel the ghost of Joseph McCarthy.

The topic of this thread is Venezuela pulling out of the IMF and World Bank and what that means. Let's get back to it.
.

edit: link fixed

[edit on 5/2/2007 by Gools]

Thanks Gools,

Well I do not see why the fuss about Chavez and the decisions he makes when it comes to his own country finances.

He paid his debt so what is the problem with that?.

So now, he can do as he wishes, what is the problem with that?

Sometimes I cannot understand why so many American seems to believe that every country in the world owns something to our nation and government.

Chavez doesn’t own me anything so what he does is its business and the corrupted corporate America and its supported government, the Bush administration imperialistic agenda can either sacrificed more of our troops to go into a war, sanction him (I don’t know for what) or go invade Venezuela in the false pretenses of liberation and kill hundred of thousands of Venezuelan people, After all oil seems to be the target here.

I bet that, out to make many (patriots in the US) happy along with corporate America.

I think we should be wary of Chavez. He does have that air of being a wolf in sheep's clothing.

So he has the support of the masses... that means little. So did Hitler. Chavez is buying the support of the masses through the wealth skimmed off oil sales in exchange for their freedom. He's appealing to the Venezuelan sense of patriotism by picking fights with the US (making it out to be a big, evil bully) and nationalising foreign companies... as he did only in the last couple of days. A quick and easy way to whip up mass support... some nasty, foreign enemy. It happens all over the world, pretty much the same each time; Hitler used the Jews and Communists, Stalin used fascists and counter-revolutionaries, through the Cold War the West used Communist spies and sympathisers and now, post 9/11, it's al-Qaeda and terrorism.

These are all distractions, designed to keep the Venezuelan people unaware of what he's really up to. I'm not sure how his support will stand once the oil starts to dry up.

Chavez has demonstrated before that he has authoritarian ambitions, even if he doesn't show them openly (he was involved in an abortive coup back in 1992, and has said only a couple of years back that he was considering amending the Venezuelan constitution so he can stand again for the presidency in 2012).

He's a dictator at heart, although he genuinely is in a unique position in which he can change Venezuela for the better. Will he take it? Who knows. I doubt it. Something still tells me that the lure of power will overcome him. We are witnessing a tragedy unfold, where greed and ambition will push aside the desire to help people.

History repeats itself.

Ste2652

The problem is that the only reason Chavez makes headlines compare to other less desirable countries in South American is because he holds vast amounts of oil.

If it wasn't for that he will be just another socialist, dictator, communist or whatever in South America.

I do not compare him with Hitler because Chavez with all its oil has nothing to gain invading other nations, they are a very majority ruled Catholic country and even when he has sided with protestants they are still all Christians.

So what group is he going to do a holocaust on? I don't see any comparison at all.

He may have a big mouth but he knows how to play safe and take advantage of the power his country hold when it comes to oil.

Originally posted by Muaddib
So St Udio...what do you have to say as to what the people are saying in that video i gave...



so the 500,000-1,000,000 Venezuelans were all "CIA operatives"?....

oops, i've had a long pause because another "IE cannot display page..."
incident happened, and i've found i must go to other web sites in the interim, until ATS & IE decides to handle my browser request.


sorry, i don't watch videos or whatever, Before I post in a thread,
that would have the effect of tainting my viewpoint with hot topic, emotional & passionate, (call it) propaganda... that IS the purpose of
these 'videos' which are mistaken for documentary News.

after i've vented, made a statement or whatever,
then if your or anybody elses position has those undefined traits that make me want to learn more,
Then i will spend more time on the topic & anyones position (pro or con it's all still propaganda)....
hey, there's only so much time in the day, a person cannot exhaust
theirself on following ALL the facets of a viewpoint, in this case, about a geo-political situation.




CIA operatives?
is that intending to mean the ProAmerican movement within the diverse & free peoples in the 'democratic socialism' of Venezuela?
no, ...the ~million dissenters have their own reasons for their stand,
it still seems that Chavez has 60+ percent daily approval,
and had 60+% popular vote in elections,
that means 40% of the people of Venezuela don't like or don't agree with him - - or the direction he's taking the country.
i'm not Venezuelan so i only observe, i see no need to be an interveener
(is that a word?)

Originally posted by marg6043
So what group is he going to do a holocaust on? I don't see any comparison at all.

No, the point was that even Hitler had popular support. Just because someone's popular doesn't mean they're democratic. I wasn't saying Chavez will be the new Hitler - he won't be. The conditions in Venezuela aren't right for a Hitler-style figure. What I do think is that Chavez will send Venezuela down the path of authoritarianism, if not outright dictatorship simply because he's shown he wants power by any means before (you've got to be pretty desperate to launch a coup).

Chavez is an extremely good politician, able to hide his true intentions until it's too late (and perhaps even persuade you he's a good guy whilst doing so... maybe even getting you to like him). Don't make the mistake of underestimating him.

[edit on 2/5/07 by Ste2652]

Originally posted by Ste2652
Chavez is an extremely good politician, able to hide his true intentions until it's too late (and perhaps even persuade you he's a good guy whilst doing so... maybe even getting you to like him). Don't make the mistake of underestimating him.

[edit on 2/5/07 by Ste2652]

Any country take a gamble with their elected politicians, Chavez was elected lets not forget that.

We never get to know the intentions of our own leaders here in the US and even when we enjoy a "democracy actually we are a Republic" our leaders made decisions that are not all for the best interest of the population.

So we all take a gamble when we vote.

So far he has been relatively harmless when it comes to world power, he doesn't have the arms or weapons to become a military power, but what he got that makes him an enemy of the oil barons and corporate America is what makes him and tag him an enemy of the present administration.

Remember that the propaganda against the axis of evil is nothing than an excused for the inability of corporate American not been able to get their hands on the resources of this countries, with the exception of NK.

Originally posted by marg6043
So far he has been relatively harmless when it comes to world power, he doesn't have the arms or weapons to become a military power, but what he got that makes him an enemy of the oil barons and corporate America is what makes him and tag him an enemy of the present administration.

Chavez doesn't need to be expansionist - as you said before, he has pretty much all he needs in Venezuela. The rest can be acquired from 'friendly' nations such as Russia (military equipment), China (industrial goods) and his neighbours in South America.

He's more interested in internal power, at least in the short/medium term. He won't seek out a physcial empire even in the long term, either - pretty hard for Venezuela. Besides, he's on good terms with a number of other South American leaders so attacking them isn't really an option. Getting rid of foreign companies and organisations such as the IMF and World Bank is one way of solidifying his internal power because he's removing potential blocks to his influence from outside. Added to that, he looks like a great patriotic hero (to the masses of Venezuela, at least) by kicking out these 'foreign' groups that he has consistently demonised since taking office. It's a slow process, but since getting his second term it has started to speed up rapidly.

[edit on 2/5/07 by Ste2652]

Well US also benefit from China and Russia through globalization, corporate America is very much up to its neck in China and many other countries in Europe specially third world countries.

But something that I remember now and did a piece in ATS was that the Bush administration in its pursue of the middle east has allowed South American to fall under the helping hands of Country like China, when at one time all the needs of South America were in the hands of the US.

So if something is brewing in the south is because the inability to keep those nations happy and under control.

Now when it comes to Chavez time will tell but we must not forget that Brazil have nuclear power that while we are keeping an eye on Iran for obvious reasons oil Brazil is pursuing nuclear means.

That probably will pose a problem if Brazil decided to have nuclear weapons and sell them to its friend in Venezuela.

But we do not get to hear about what is going on in South America very often unless its related to Venezuela.

Don't you find that kind of disturbing?

I have been living in Venezuela for one year now.
I was against Chavez for quite some time and I still think he has some very serious flaws in his political agenda but he is by far the best politician I have seen or heard in any country I have lived.

The coup d'etat was simply made by the medias in conjunction with the CIA.
Started from RCTV (which he will be closing soon) and prorogated exclusively through television.

He has done quite a deal for Venezuela especially in economic matters.
He made some moves which really astounded me and made me change the way I perceived him.
3 of the most important: Nationalized the Central Bank - Nationalized the national resources (he finished with the oil industry just yesterday) - and redistributed part of the richness to the poor.

Who is accept with Chavez in Venezuela? The old rich Venezuelan the one that stole the most from this country and did not give a damn about the poor.
The ex- employee of PDVSA the National oil company.
They used to be the richest of the country because they were basically sharing immense richness within a few thousands of them.
Who is pissed with Chavez internationally?
Well the US is not paying anymore the 1% royalty to steal all of the oil they wanted.
The international Bankers.
He has also some bad points against him actually quite a bit but thats another sotry