Big Brother Has Become a Big Issue.

Originally posted by andy1033
things are going to get alot worse then just cameras. who decides who is antisocial. does a gang that controls a neighberhood, decide who is an anti social. who decides, and there is plenty of examples where innocent peoples lifes are wrecked because such things are in place.

it will be like living in the soviet union, where everyones spys on each other, and if you are lucky in life you may get through it without having police destroy you for no reason.

I agree!

And to disagree with invading privacy ....would be a crime in itself....mind your language out there..

But choice is ours, only you have to wont to be free.

Originally posted by DarkSide
Personnally I'm not involved in any kind of criminal behavior so if a camera records me walking down a street why should I care?

Ah, but isn't this where it all begins? The 'why should I care' allows for the slow accomidation of social restraint. We shrug off the cameras and have given an inch. We shrug off illegal and circumvented wire tapping and we give another. We shrug off e-mails and snail mail being read and we have given yet another. Where does it stop?

If you are to give one inch then it is clear that another can be taken. And that is how radical social change comes about; by a society allowing itself to be taken inch by inch.

Originally posted by budski
Rubbish,
if you're not involved in anti-social behaviour, why should you fear the camera's?
Personally, I'm glad that they are there, you can now walk the streets in more safety than before.

Once again, it comes down to allowing our freedoms which we all care for so very much (specifically privacy) to be taken from us. The cameras may not seem like a huge issue, but they allow for the next step in social control to begin.

You can not travel a mile without walking an inch.

Originally posted by budski
I suppose you think police are a bad idea too.....

Assumption, is it not the cause of so many problems?

The police, as long as they do not act outside of their limits, are a good thing. Allowing ourselves to be viewed and monitored on an ever increasing scale is something else entirley.

Let us not make assumptions.

One thing to remember is that all these cameras, whilst recording, are not always viewed real-time by operators. So, in many cases whilst they may record an event and provide video footage, they do not actually deter the criminals who know where the cameras are and can simply mask their features to avoid incriminating evidence.
A lot like the police in that respect. They too are a reactive element, turning up after a crime has been committed and investigating more times than they actually prevent a crime from happening. CCTV is and always will be a tool for investigation and corroboration rather than a deterrent.
More use is being made of "intelligent" CCTV systems that identify and analyse the live video feeds to determine suspicious behaviour such as someone loitering in the same spot for a length of time, objects left in view, vehicles parked in no-parking zones etc. Even this though can be burdensome to operators, overloading them with false or innocent events to investigate.
I am responsible for the corporate access control and CCTV systems of a large global company so work with this technology every day, there is a need for it but not outside of the workplace. Where I go, who I see and how I get there is my business and nobody, not even the government, has the right to ask, let alone covertly track me. The same technology used for access control systems can easily be adapted to read RFID enabled ID cards from a distance. Even number plates with RFID chips (already discussed I believe by the government) can be read from readers placed at the roadside or motorway overhead gantrys. The technologies for near total tracking of citizens are already with us and IMHO are quite likely being put into place right now under the cover of other government systems initiatives.
The real kicker is that it's our tax money that's paying for it all, whether we like it or not

I agree with you on basically everything you've stated here. That's the problem with complete surveillance and the sheer number of cameras -- it doesn't prevent crime.

It might seem like it does, but in reality it doesn't. What do you need to do, a black mask, some gloves, and your set. Most criminals do this anyway.

I also agree that it's more of an investigation tool if anything. However, with this help in cases, it still invades privacy, regardless of how you want to justify it as increasing or padding 'security'.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 30/4/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by virtuexru
I also agree that it's more of an investigation tool if anything. However, with this help in cases, it still invades privacy, regardless of how you want to justify it as increasing or padding 'security'.

Ah, and in that same light: Most crimes that require any amount of extended investigation do not take place out on the streets. These crimes are usually violant in nature and, more often then not, take place inside the home or place of buisness.

If they start to push 'investigatory legitimacy as a reason for the cameras then I would start to be a bit more put off. If that becomes their argument then I am sure they will make the connection that I have made...and at that point they will attempt to install and rationalize government cameras in the most private of places.

Originally posted by blue bird

Originally posted by budski

Rubbish,
if you're not involved in anti-social behaviour, why should you fear the camera's?

I suppose you think police are a bad idea too.....

And if tomorrow, governments tell us - that in order to “prevent“ crime, we should put some implants - and they could track us and “help“ us....or even better - we should report in advance what we are going to do during day...

Supposition backed by fantasy,
there is actually no proof that this could/would ever happen, except perhaps in the pages of a science fiction novel.
Yes, crime has decreased in places where camera's are prevalent, and town and city centres are safer than ever before.
Or perhaps you'd like to go back to victorian times, with rape, murder and violent assault condoned, rather than impinge on "freedom", because the social elite refuse to recognise a problem exists.
Incidentally, this freedom that you speak of has long been an illusion, we are constrained by much more than government or law. Even an insistence that you alone are free imposes constraints on your behaviour.

well well...crazy!!! remember though our country WAS founded by the british. those ideas become our ideas. booo to them.

Originally posted by budski
Supposition backed by fantasy,
there is actually no proof that this could/would ever happen, except perhaps in the pages of a science fiction novel.
Yes, crime has decreased in places where camera's are prevalent, and town and city centres are safer than ever before.
Or perhaps you'd like to go back to victorian times, with rape, murder and violent assault condoned, rather than impinge on "freedom", because the social elite refuse to recognise a problem exists.
Incidentally, this freedom that you speak of has long been an illusion, we are constrained by much more than government or law. Even an insistence that you alone are free imposes constraints on your behaviour.

It's not fantasy. Google news and type in "RFID chips" or "Implant chips", or any other synonyms you can think of. Their real and they are being implemented eventually, they are slowly training the public to accept these but its a lot harder than getting the public to accept cameras obviously.

Freedom has long been an illusion, and soon it will fade away indefinably. And that's the point, the Big Brother elitist control of public social events is what is leading to it. It's like V for Vendetta or George Orwells 1984 coming full circle.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 30/4/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by budski
Supposition backed by fantasy,
there is actually no proof that this could/would ever happen, except perhaps in the pages of a science fiction novel.

There would seem to be evidence of an increasing lack of social liberty and freedom under the banner of 'safety'. Also, it would appear that it does increment in a step-by-step process.

You can look across the pond to my home country (America). The 'threat of terrorism' and the 'concern for its citizens safety' has resulted in the Patriot Act, the illegal wire tapping by order of our leaders (which went unpunished except for some P.R. egg in their face), the reading of our mail without reason (all they have to say is that 'it may help us catch terrorists), etc...

So, while it may not instantly jump from cameras/increased observation to implants...it does seem to be chugging along slowly.

And as for those implants being a 'thing of sci-fi' only: tTe Ministry of Defence Concepts & Doctrine Center releases a report outlining the "future strategic context"

Take it how you will, but even the official documents seem to lend more and more to the loss of privacy and self.

Originally posted by budski
Yes, crime has decreased in places where camera's are prevalent, and town and city centres are safer than ever before.

Can you confirm this?

Originally posted by budski
Or perhaps you'd like to go back to victorian times, with rape, murder and violent assault condoned, rather than impinge on "freedom", because the social elite refuse to recognise a problem exists.

It would seem that many things have led to the decline in crime besides a decreesing lack of privacy. Social and political change would have a major part in this...as would advances in crime scene investigation and prosecution.

Originally posted by budski
Incidentally, this freedom that you speak of has long been an illusion, we are constrained by much more than government or law. Even an insistence that you alone are free imposes constraints on your behaviour.

Would you care to elaborate? I do not think I follow.

If big brother gave a crap about me I wouldn't be such a loser.

Originally posted by WatertownStrip
If big brother gave a crap about me I wouldn't be such a loser.

That's the thing. They don't care about people really, just numbers, databases and control.

I don't need to tell you that control leads to power and power = money and so forth, you knew that already didn't you .

Humans have long laboured under the illusion that we are free, when we are anything but. We are programmed from birth via parents, religion, society, school etc etc.
This programming affects everything we do/think.
The illusion of freedom in an individual dictates that they must do things in a different way in order to assert that the "freedom" they have is unique to them, when it is anything but. We are affected by every part of our environment, as far down as our diet and how we use a toilet!

freedom is an illusion.

Originally posted by budski

Humans have long laboured under the illusion that we are free, when we are anything but. We are programmed from birth via parents, religion, society, school etc etc.
This programming affects everything we do/think.
The illusion of freedom in an individual dictates that they must do things in a different way in order to assert that the "freedom" they have is unique to them, when it is anything but. We are affected by every part of our environment, as far down as our diet and how we use a toilet!

freedom is an illusion.

OK. To an extent, I agree with you. But like it or not, you still have personal undeniable freedoms. Yes, you're "freedom of speech" in the US is partially skewered, but in your home you are free (for the most part) to say anything you want, do anything you want (be it legal), etc.

I can see how you can also argue that, "but virtue, they tap phone lines, they stalk victims houses to see whether or not you're growing a marijuana farm in your basement, they won't let me say that I want to assassinate the president, etc etc."

This might be true, but only in rare cases. Out of the billions that live in the US, most citizens are law-abiding and are never targeted by government/police.

Again, us "revolutionist thinkers" might be on some watch-lists but who cares. Freedom isn't free, it's the way it is. Since the beginning of humanity, no one was ever free, even in the hunter-gatherer society/way of living.

A good quote by C. Wright Mills:

Freedom is not merely the opportunity to do as one pleases; neither is it merely the opportunity to choose between set alternatives. Freedom is, first of all, the chance to formulate the available choices, to argue over them -- and then, the opportunity to choose.

Originally posted by budski

Originally posted by blue bird

Originally posted by budski

Rubbish,
if you're not involved in anti-social behaviour, why should you fear the camera's?

I suppose you think police are a bad idea too.....

And if tomorrow, governments tell us - that in order to “prevent“ crime, we should put some implants - and they could track us and “help“ us....or even better - we should report in advance what we are going to do during day...

Supposition backed by fantasy,
there is actually no proof that this could/would ever happen, except perhaps in the pages of a science fiction novel.
Yes, crime has decreased in places where camera's are prevalent, and town and city centres are safer than ever before.
Or perhaps you'd like to go back to victorian times, with rape, murder and violent assault condoned, rather than impinge on "freedom", because the social elite refuse to recognise a problem exists.
Incidentally, this freedom that you speak of has long been an illusion, we are constrained by much more than government or law. Even an insistence that you alone are free imposes constraints on your behaviour.

thought crime is a reality in britain. i know someone who has been monitored 24 hours a day since 1992. his family and the people who know him, know its happening to him.

so stop living in the lets pretend world, where people like you try to pretend that technologies do not exist.

thought crime will become more of a problem in the future, and thats a fact because the people who use such technologies get away with it, because people try to say such things do not exist.

i remember in early 1990's talking to friends uncle about n ireland and he said that people there used to talk about microphones in lamp posts back then, this was the early 90's or late 80's. today uk is talking about this publicily, but i remember talking to irish people from the north who spoke of people there that there were rumours, back then of microphones in lamp posts in late 80's or early 90's.

and just this year the goernment is talking out publicily about doing this, while it was happening ages ago, in n ireland as a big possibility.

just shows you how far the press and the public are behind what really goes on in the uk police state.

Originally posted by WatertownStrip
If big brother gave a crap about me I wouldn't be such a loser.

whos to say they are not responsible for you being a loser.

[edit on 4/30/2007 by andy1033]

Originally posted by budski

Supposition backed by fantasy,
there is actually no proof that this could/would ever happen, except perhaps in the pages of a science fiction novel.
Yes, crime has decreased in places where camera's are prevalent, and town and city centres are safer than ever before.
Or perhaps you'd like to go back to victorian times, with rape, murder and violent assault condoned, rather than impinge on "freedom", because the social elite refuse to recognise a problem exists.
Incidentally, this freedom that you speak of has long been an illusion, we are constrained by much more than government or law. Even an insistence that you alone are free imposes constraints on your behaviour.

SF....say you..my my   ...and crime rate has decreased and we are 'more secure than ever'!?

I am afraid Room 101 is waiting for me...or room 'V'...coz, after all these kind of freedom loving nature, had to be corrected in to a loyalty to that 'perfect' society. No more 'individuality' BS.

You know - everything in Oceania is done for benefit of the people, for their security...Inner Party think for you, do not worry! Stay brainwashed in total submission!

Huxley was also very accurate in 'Brave New World' . Citizens of Utopia have no more worries (as you say of those 'dark Victorian times'), everything is controlled: population numbers, social classes,people are physically and intellectually 'evaluated'. ALL IN THE NAME OF SOCIAL STABILITY OF THIS 'BRAVE NEW WORLD' TAYLORED AND ENGINEERED IN EVERY ASPECT!

Or you can try to read the first great novel (( for my taste by fare the best in this category )) about totalitarian society monstrosity: 'We' by Yevgeny Zamyatin (1921)... were citizens live in 'happy' state called One State and were everything is reduced to mathematical equations (even sex), every moment in citizens life id direct by Benefactor and put on screens...no individualism to the point that the main actor in novel is called D-503....

SF you say - do you know that there are laws written on Rights of Robots...and btw , exactly the way Isaac Asimov was writing long,long ago.

It is vitally to have ,as much insight as we can,of future WE AND OUR KIDS are going to face.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a crime committed against them for which the criminal was apprehended as a result of CCTV? From the stories I've heard, these cameras are very rarely used by the police to solve crimes against ordinary citizens.

Originally posted by TheStev
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a crime committed against them for which the criminal was apprehended as a result of CCTV? From the stories I've heard, these cameras are very rarely used by the police to solve crimes against ordinary citizens.

Oh yes! I used to work as a croupier (Casino dealer) in one of London's rougher casinos and some looser threw an ashtray at my head, but with my ninja skills I deflected the ashtray. Unfortunatly it was a heavy crystal type thing and it fractured my wrist. The Looser was charged with assult and banned from casinos in the UK for life.

It may not be the same as the cameras on the street, but it got me a month off work with full pay

Originally posted by ChiKeyMonKey

Originally posted by TheStev
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a crime committed against them for which the criminal was apprehended as a result of CCTV? From the stories I've heard, these cameras are very rarely used by the police to solve crimes against ordinary citizens.

Oh yes! I used to work as a croupier (Casino dealer) in one of London's rougher casinos and some looser threw an ashtray at my head, but with my ninja skills I deflected the ashtray. Unfortunatly it was a heavy crystal type thing and it fractured my wrist. The Looser was charged with assult and banned from casinos in the UK for life.

It may not be the same as the cameras on the street, but it got me a month off work with full pay

Haha, good story, thanks for that.

As far as the question goes, yes. There have been a few cases. I'm sure not all of them get publicized. We don't hear about EVERY story that the police catch up on.

But trust me on this, those cameras are being used.

Big Brother and the Orwellian Society is a very real thing.
Let's break it down:
Social security cards. Self Evident. These numbers must be used on just about everything.
Drivers Licence Number - see above.
RFID chips/stickers. Now in use everywhere. I even saw a report where an RFID sticker was in use on dumpsters. In addition some corporations sneak them into ID badges or uniforms to track their employees.
National/Federal ID Cards. Citizen, are your papers in order?
State and National Governmental survelliance cameras.
Spy Satellites.
Where does it end?

"I am Not a Number I am a Free Man" - The Prisoner.

If you do not stand up and fight for your rights, then "They" will have even less problem taking them away from you.

Understand your impending slavery and do something about it before it is too late.

So Big Brother will know what bands I listen to, what films I watch, what I read and what I eat for breakfast, and the color of my underware...They'll also know where I go when I leave my house. So what? Everything I do on my pc is already monitored by adware...

And I totally agree with budski, humans were never and never will be free, first of all your genes program a part of your behavior, then when you grow up the society you live in conditions you into a certain thought pattern, etc.

You'll never be free if you live in a society, and that's though because we're social animals.