Does Satan have More Power than Human Beings?

The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.
Satan is a ficticious character invented by man to make it easier for organised religion to control the masses.
Religious beleif does not guarantee moral integrity and many religious 'extremists' act with utter contempt toward their fellow man.
Far more important than beleiving in a big red monkey man with a pitchfork is being benevolent and compassionate(not malevolent and vindictive).

kinglizard,

Point 1. If I do not share your faith, then obviously I don't believe that the bible is the word of God, just as a Jew does not believe that the New Testament is the word of God. Therefore to quote it at me, or a Jew, as the 'word of God' is to quote something that, by definition, we don’t believe. Clear? I didn't say that passages from the Bible don't contain value.

A doctor quoting a medical text, is accepted by most people because they believe that the text is valid and correct.

Point 2. I was not judging the people but the organisation. Did I not say that people do not make war - only politicians make war? The teachings of most religions are interpreted for 'the faithful' by the officers of that religion. It is the interpretation by the organisation that has resulted in countless deaths throughout history that I criticize. For instance, within the Catholic Church, how much say do you personally have in the nomination of the next Pope - less than you have in the nomination of candidates for the next US presidential election. How could I possibly hold individual members of a Church responsible for the actions of the senior office bearers of the organisation.

Point 3. No, I am not saying that if a devout Christian does good that it is because of his religion. What I am saying is that if a Christian does good because he believes that he should and that happens to be in accord with the Bible, that this fact does not necessarily validate anything, or everything else in the Bible. Many written works from news bulletins to political manifestos have an element of truth, but time and time again is has been shown that the truth is only there is reinforce the lies (indeed, this is the foundation of propaganda and advertising). And no, I'm not saying that the Bible is a pack of lies, just that one element of truth or value does not validate the whole.

If a person were to do something considered universally 'bad', and that person then justifies their action as being 'the word of God', then I could fairly say that they carried out that 'bad' action because of their religious belief. As far as I can see, if a Christian carries out an 'bad' act, which is against Christian teachings, that that person would also be a 'bad' Christian who has acted 'badly' both against society and his professed beliefs. So in the first case there would have to be some doubt cast upon this person's 'word of God', but in the second case religious belief does not come into the equation.

Point 4. You bend my words kinglizard. I did not say every detail. That one or more details may be correct does not make the whole document correct. The definition of correct means that all the details have to be correct, not just some of them. Here is a recent example that you may not be aware of.

The company that makes the vitamin drink Ribena (in case it is not sold where you are, it is a British concoction invented during WWII - uses a similar advertising campaign to Cranberry drink manufacturers.) which is based upon Black Currents, advertise that Black Currents contain 5 times the vitamin C as oranges. This apparently is true. Unfortunately, two New Zealand high-school students working in the lab, discovered that there was no measurable quantity of vitamin C in Ribena! (one can only imagine the initial reaction to their discovery by their teacher). Now, since Ribena does not actually state that 'Ribena' contains 5 times the vitamin C as the same size orange drink, then they could not be charged with lying. But they were brought to court in both New Zealand and Australia and fined heavily for deceptive advertising.

The fact is that if I tell you something that is true in my first sentence, it does not automatically mean that my second sentence is equally true.

If I say that the Koran contains some things of value to humanity, it does not mean that I consider the Koran entirely valuable, nor does it mean that I consider it the 'word of God'.

Point 5. Thank you for the applause, but unfortunately I will have to reject it. Having read the Bible, I cannot accept it as the 'word of God' any more than you can accept the Koran, or 'Gone with the Wind', or Encyclopaedia Britannica as the 'word of God'.

Point 6. I was not 'capitalizing' on your comment, I was rejecting your argument as being too controversial to be a valid debating point, but apparently that went right over your head.

It would appear that you have either misunderstood what I have said, or alternatively made an extreme interpretation of what I said. I can but hope, for your sake, that you have not done the same with your 'word of God' document.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 2/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

The Winged Wombat, now you are attacking a Moderator (although the attacks on him are not nearly as your extremely vicious attacks on me). What is the cause of this? Is it atheism?

Maybe a little bit of faith might help you. Please try to live by the Golden Rule.

I will continue to pray for you.

GreatTech,

Since when is defending your words from mis-interpretation an attack????

For whatever reason, kinglizard has mis-interpretted what I said. Is a hope that he does not mis-interpret other things an attack?????

Where is the attack, and why do you read things that I haven't written?

Please, which of my responses to kinglizard's reply do you see as an attack upon him? Certainly no attack or offence was intended.

As regards an attack upon you, I apologise for doing so, but you know why I did so - the cowardly way you abandoned a thread you had started without answering or addressing the majority of points raised against your argument in debate IMHO.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 2/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by kinglizard
A Christian that is committed to “peace and tolerance” is no doubt following the the direction found in the bible, at least we can assume that if the person is devout. If a devout person is following the teachings of anything you should easily see a connection between his/her actions and whatever belief system or guide they subscribe to.

kinglizard,

If I may expand on your point.

Your statement appears to assume exclusivity for Christians for any virtuous act or quality in agreement with the Bible. Surely you must agree that, in this particular case, that it is not ONLY Christian individuals who are committed to peace and tolerance. How then, do you reconcile an athiest who is committed to those same principles totally without reference to the God of Christianity, or any other God?

My conclusion is that while the Bible is in agreement with these principles, there is no logical connection from which to conclude what is written in the Bible is the universal foundation of those principles. Ergo, while the Bible provides a reference for a Christian, it infers no exclusivity on virtue.

Alternatively if one is to believe that ONLY Christians can exhibit these qualities (because others reject or do not have access to 'the word of God' as laid out in the Bible), then it raises the paradox that it demonstrates a lack of 'tolerance' on the part of the person holding that view. This, of course, would be in opposition to the Christian 'word of God'.

Finally, if these principles are also part of another faith's Holy book, then should I make that same connection (as you recommend) with that faith?

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 2/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Wow you've been busy! Yes, you can find all traits in all different different types of people. You can find hatred and anger in a Christian and Love and peace in an atheist. However in my experience Christian friends and acquaintances are far more in tune with the good then the bad and act accordingly. Why? Because they follow Gods direction as written in the Bible, they attend church where proper living and attitudes are routinely discussed. They receive blessings from God and are fighting off the advances of evil.

Yes you can follow other texts and be a good person...tragically though, there are many many “good” people that will not find their salvation as it can only be found through Jesus.

Blessings

It depends on what you call power. or what power is defined as..

As a single entity or being, yes, Satan has more power in my opinion than any single person. This is because he apparently has the ability to keep himself hidden from eyesight, all the while working a profound deception around the world. Sparking up wars, problems, affecting peoples personal lives, you name it. Like a negative energy source that just sits right outside of planet Earth and works its' deception like a spider web on the world as it rotates on its' axis.

I dont think Satan literally lives in the clouds, or literally exists as described in the Bible, but I know an evil force exists that tempts men into heinous deeds.

But when it comes to a Human versus Satan in regards to who can out-wit who, you can't really out-smart Satan. But you can reject him and not fall into his traps. You can view life with such scrutiny of every strange and dangerous thing or situation, and turn it down or decide not to go and do that dangerous thing afterall. That's truly you being more powerful than Satan in one area at least, your willpower and resistance to his temptations/traps.

runetang, interesting reply. By the way, I define power as an act of a being with more influence than another being and where the acts of the being with less influence are precisely accomplished according to the will of the more influential being.

You suggest that Satan has very significant power over earth-Souls. Do you believe this power changes when a Soul passes on to the Afterlife: does it increase or decrease? Is Satan one and the same in the earthlife and the Afterlife? Does he ever change?

kinglizard,

Then we agree that virtue is not an exclusive right of Christians.

This is not to be taken personally, but one's experiences are a flawed method of measuring the world as it requires a broad enough set of experiences (mathematically a large enough statistical sample) for any valid conclusion to be drawn. When people say 'in my experience' they seldom quantify that experience, and shortly I'm going to do the same, as I'm sure you don’t want to hear my life story (kind of a Catch 22 situation, isn't it?). Now, I'm not saying that your conclusions are wrong (they may well be correct), merely that conclusions drawn from personal experience are much the same as anecdotal evidence. I might reasonably assume, for instance, that a person living in a ghetto in an American city (perhaps the same city as yourself), would have a completely different set of life experiences, and therefore reach different conclusions.

Anecdotally (ie:- in my experience) I have encountered many people of many nationalities, ethnicities, beliefs and economic backgrounds, in my own country and theirs (developed and underdeveloped) over the 58 years of my life, and do you know what - when you sit down and talk with them, the vast majority of all these people want the same things from their lives. They want peace, love, health, security, basic services and rights, a lack of interference in their belief system and culture (tolerance), and enough money to live a 'comfortable' life (which, of course, includes all those things that the advertising industry most successfully convinces us that we need - now there's a real source of 'evil') and, really, not much else. It really doesn't sound like too much to ask, now does it?

It is unfortunate, to say the least, that by the time we divide ourselves up into nations, religions, and ethnicity, it all somehow becomes a bizarre competition between these elements and our leaders (whether national, religious or ethnic) have become more motivated by advantage, power and greed, than what the people they represent really want. And that, of course, only describes the 'honest' leaders. Naturally there are those leaders who represent the corrupt ('evil' if you prefer) elements of humanity as well. Leadership has then become an industry, which justifies its actions by telling the people that those who disagree with that leadership are an enemy to the people's individual and collective aims (often with little justification other than the statement itself).

From the foregoing, perhaps you can see why I feel that nationality, religion and ethnicity (and don't get me started on those who make profit from dealing in currency) are the antithesis of achieving the goals of most of the world's people, as it is the divisive factors within those three categories which keep us each other's throats.

Sadly, quite ordinary people can be divisive and appear intolerant because of their religious belief, without even realising they are doing it. Let me take your last reply and dissect it.

You said ….

'Yes, you can find all traits in all different types of people. You can find hatred and anger in a Christian and Love and peace in an atheist. However in my experience Christian friends and acquaintances are far more in tune with the good then the bad and act accordingly. Why? Because they follow Gods direction as written in the Bible, they attend church where proper living and attitudes are routinely discussed. They receive blessings from God and are fighting off the advances of evil.

Yes you can follow other texts and be a good person...tragically though, there are many “good” people that will not find their salvation as it can only be found through Jesus'

Let's break it up into separate parts and see what it says to me…..

1. 'Yes, you can find all traits in all different types of people. You can find hatred and anger in a Christian and Love and peace in an atheist.'

OK, a statement we both agree on - no problem here.

2. 'However in my experience Christian friends and acquaintances are far more in tune with the good then the bad and act accordingly.'

Sure, a statement of your experiences, but as I mentioned earlier, not necessarily a universal truth. I can accept that this is the conclusion you have drawn from your experiences.

3. 'Why? Because they follow Gods direction as written in the Bible, they attend church where proper living and attitudes are routinely discussed. They receive blessings from God and are fighting off the advances of evil'

This is the reasoning for the preceding statement. Whether you realise it or not, this is an affront to other religions and people who do not believe in a God, because it states, as a fact (not your opinion), that they could not possibly even be aware of 'proper living and attitudes' (let alone possess them), because they accept neither your God nor the Bible and that they are either not willing or not able to 'fight off the advances of evil'. To take it a little further, it actually infers that they are in the grip of 'evil'

I have no problem with this statement if it is expressed as your opinion and I respect it as such. Where the problem lies, is that you have stated it as a fact and that in doing so, you have (probably inadvertently or unknowingly) insulted everyone else's standards and intelligence. That surely is divisive.

4. 'Yes you can follow other texts and be a good person...tragically though, there are many “good” people that will not find their salvation as it can only be found through Jesus'

So, if one follows no texts, then am I to assume that one cannot be a good person. (probably simply an oversight, but that IS what it says). Regards the rest of the sentence, I sincerely thank you for your concern and recognise it as a consequence of your particular faith, but again it is stated as fact rather than your opinion. I do not contest that you believe it to be fact, simply that it is both impolite and divisive to express it as fact to someone who obviously does not believe it to be so (ie;- anyone else that doesn't share your particular faith).

This not an attempt to twist your words, nor to say that what I have interpreted is what you intended to say. On the contrary, I don't think my above interpretation was what you intended to say at all. It is a demonstration of the literal meaning of what you wrote. How easily we can misinterpret the written word from its intended meaning.

Sorry this is so long...

Continued.......

It is said so often by so many people that they respect the cultures and religions of others that it is becoming a cliché, when in reality they neither understand the culture or religion to which they refer. Before any comment upon another culture or religion, one must have a thorough understanding of it, for fear of offending its practitioners. That is the basis of respect and diplomacy. Equally, to state one's beliefs as fact, regardless of how certain an individual believes it to be, one must have a thorough understanding of the offence this may cause others of a different belief.

To respect something, first you must have an understanding of it.

The Winged Wombat

Originally posted by kinglizard
Why? Because they follow Gods direction as written in the Bible, they attend church where proper living and attitudes are routinely discussed.

kinglizard,

Just a quick one.

I am intrigued by your use of the word 'discussed' here.

Does the congregation discuss these matters at church or is it preached to the congregation?

What I'm asking is, is it a discussion (ie:- inviting different views and dissent), or are you speaking of what the minister preaches (which would not actually be a discussion) or advises in individual consultation.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 3/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

We do many things in Church...receive sermons, bible study, commune with other Christians etc.

I think you are looking way to hard here. If you disagree with Christianity or it's teachings it's ok, God gave you the free will to believe what you like. You don't need to try and find fault with my words in order to feel right.

Blessings

kinglizard,

Please don't take offence. I was not attempting, as I said, to fault your words or your intent. I was attempting to point out how easily we can all cause offence to others because of the limitations of the written word (and using your reply as an example), or a lack of understanding of things we 'profess' to respect. I hope I made it clear that I did not necessarily interpret your words that way (although in re-reading my post, perhaps I didn't - in which case, please accept my apologies).

If you missed the point of my post then perhaps that's just a further demonstration of the limitations of the written word, or, indeed a lack of ability, on my part, to cummunicate effectively.

I welcome any observations you might have on the other parts of the post, along with the answer to my (I thought, simple) question, as it helps me to a greater understanding of your point of view.

I do not dislike any particular organised religion for it's beliefs, because all religions have done some great things for humanity, but overall, as I've said, I feel humanity would have been better off without religion, nationalism and the concept of ethnicity, because of the differences between the elements of those groupings and the conflicts those differences have created.

Of course, even if there were no organised religions, that would not precluded any individual from holding the same beliefs as are presently held by the established religions. What it would do, however, would be to separate the political nature of some organised religions and also rid us of the various rites associated with them. For instance, could it really matter to Allah that a Muslim should prostrate himself in the direction of Mecca to pray? - will he really punish that person if he loses his sense of direction for a moment?

The Winged Wombat



[edit on 3/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

[edit on 3/5/07 by The Winged Wombat]

No offense taken and no apology necessary.

I've been very clear in my responses/posts and stand by all of them.

Now do you have anything to add regarding Satan having more power than a human?

Not presently, kinglizard, but I'll let you know when I do.

The Winged Wombat

You realise of course the 95% of wars occur due to religion? such as the crusades, you also realise that black magic and necromancy was origionaly created by priests of the roman catholic church who had access to the krypts, you also must realise that religion preaches peace but teaches hatred for other religions, and that every religion gives the same ultamatom "follow my god or go to hell" and that the bible gives the gidlines for "gothic satanism" where by it tells people of how satanists (not neo-satanists like the church of satan naturaist types) sacrafice children and sing the lord prayer backwards etc (if it hadnt "gothic satanism" wouldnt exist). Also nearly every religion has contridictions such as when one of the commandments says "thou shalt not envy" or something and yet in the old testament it is said "your god is a jealouse god you shall place no gods above him" and finaly you must realise that by saying if we all had the same faith we would live in peace is just ignorant and like saying you must all worship my religion for it is the true religion.
Dose the devil have more power than man? yes thanks to people like you.

I read through all 3 pages...phew!
________________________________________________________
I wanted to include this in the thread, as it does pertain to the topic.
________________________________________________________

Decades ago, I remember having submitted a school paper assignment that covered the following topics on the book, "Lord of the flies, by William Golding:

* Good vs Evil
* Macrocosim vs Microcosim
* "Is mankind innately good or bad?"
* "Do we need outside influences to guide us?"

Short Summary - Lord of the Flies

Have any of you ever read this novel?

Basically, in a nutshell, the book tells the tale of a group of boys that crash land on an island. Without having adults or religion to run the show, these boys (all on their own) have devised their 'own' subculture, and 2 mini societies emmerge. What happens after this, I won't tell you (not wanted to spoil the ending).

As far as being Christian or Atheist, or whatever beliefs we hold dear, there is only so much finger pointing we can only do, to distract from what really matters:

Ultimately, we must take responsiblities for our OWN actions.

We must humble ourselves to this notion.

Reach out if we will to our God, Philosophies, or other earthly distractions for sound reasonings; these things may or may not... look down upon you with favor or cast judgement. For if YOU believe in these things, they are true for you...and YOU alone.